Ok, I stumbled uppon this item but from what I am reading, this has been going on since 2002.....Funny I have not seen any mention of it here yet.:canttalk: ...
What do you think of what is being said???????:annoyed:
From UltraVan (email address removed by admin - not allowed)
Granted, the UV engines are a little older than ours, but not all that
much; '63 to '69.
Oil is Killing our Cars
By
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
360-882-3596
Oil is Killing our cars Part I
About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate
(ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding
and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals
in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.
A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a
totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on
them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this
could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting
to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum
disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only
thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct
break in procedures.
This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major
suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It's today's "modern" API
(American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.
Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and
performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are
using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won't fail in an
unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated
oil on flat tappet engines.
Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars
(Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still
use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They
continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don't have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants possible". Sounds stupid, doesn't it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.
To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! "The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube.
They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are
needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary.
Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually
available at auto stores and gas stations.
This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA)
Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short
discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.
Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY" aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that
couldn't rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He
has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the
"bad news" we have been finding.
Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They
have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in
the bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed specifically
for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability
benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper
break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by
replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been
required to remove from the off the-shelf oil".
<<< CONTINUED >>>
Oil is Killing our cars Part 3
Last month's report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month's article with their next month's article! They are all ending up supporting our report.
I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in
the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been
very reluctant to "dump" Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn't really abandoned our
cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.
Now for the latest report:
#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in!
10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the API "Donut" on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will
destroy our cams. Virtually all "Diesel" rated oils are acceptable.
#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.
#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of
protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We
are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as
these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag
and has the additive package we need.
#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which
increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the "Energy Conservation"
oils that we cannot use.
#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new
engines! Proper seating of rings, with today's lubricants is taking that
long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just
burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.
#6 The "Energy Conservation" trend was first lead by automakers to
increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other
chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing
pollution.
We don't have catalytic converters (mentioned to a specific group) and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.
For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is
attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to "Stand" the
molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and
friction.
This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and
tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat
tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the
surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist
pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.
Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly
bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer
to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems;
lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage,
by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.
Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol
20W-50 GTX is ok. Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.
New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do
best with the Redline 10W- 40 or 10W-30 synthetic.
What do you think of what is being said???????:annoyed:
From UltraVan (email address removed by admin - not allowed)
Granted, the UV engines are a little older than ours, but not all that
much; '63 to '69.
Oil is Killing our Cars
By
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
360-882-3596
Oil is Killing our cars Part I
About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate
(ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding
and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals
in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.
A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a
totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on
them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this
could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting
to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum
disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only
thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct
break in procedures.
This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major
suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It's today's "modern" API
(American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.
Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and
performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are
using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won't fail in an
unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated
oil on flat tappet engines.
Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars
(Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still
use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They
continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don't have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants possible". Sounds stupid, doesn't it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.
To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! "The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube.
They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are
needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary.
Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually
available at auto stores and gas stations.
This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA)
Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short
discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.
Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY" aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that
couldn't rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He
has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the
"bad news" we have been finding.
Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They
have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in
the bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed specifically
for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability
benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper
break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by
replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been
required to remove from the off the-shelf oil".
<<< CONTINUED >>>
Oil is Killing our cars Part 3
Last month's report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month's article with their next month's article! They are all ending up supporting our report.
I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in
the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been
very reluctant to "dump" Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn't really abandoned our
cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.
Now for the latest report:
#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in!
10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the API "Donut" on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will
destroy our cams. Virtually all "Diesel" rated oils are acceptable.
#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.
#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of
protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We
are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as
these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag
and has the additive package we need.
#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which
increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the "Energy Conservation"
oils that we cannot use.
#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new
engines! Proper seating of rings, with today's lubricants is taking that
long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just
burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.
#6 The "Energy Conservation" trend was first lead by automakers to
increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other
chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing
pollution.
We don't have catalytic converters (mentioned to a specific group) and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.
For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is
attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to "Stand" the
molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and
friction.
This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and
tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat
tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the
surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist
pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.
Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly
bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer
to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems;
lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage,
by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.
Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol
20W-50 GTX is ok. Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.
New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do
best with the Redline 10W- 40 or 10W-30 synthetic.
