[geocoy2]

GM normally labels 5 pin relay as below

So did you mean jumpered 87 & 30 ?

1. Which is than pin 30 is getting 12 volts from its own fuse and
2. when coil of relay has 12 volts from another fuse and ground than
3. relay changes the normally open pin 87 closed,
4. which then supplies 12 volts from pin 30 to the device the relay is for

So if correct,
GM controls the coil by commanding/completing a ground to coil and fused 12 volts to other side of coil is always hot

• This is approximately what my relay looks like and I am connecting 87 to 30 to start the engine
• 
  

 

[Team ZR-1]

So with the jumper you basically did the job the coil should have
that when coil was commanded on then the contacts change state and in your case
the output of relay on 87 which is normally open, to closed state which is carrying the 12 volts to the output

You know being with the jumper engine would start so that tells us that fused 12 volts is good

You need to see if pin for coil of other fused 12 volts is getting that voltage
That leaves the ground side of coil
When coil is NOT being commanded than with ohm meter probes, one to frame and other to pin 86 that ground wire should show an open

When trying to start than pin 86 should show connected now to ground

If NOT, then all the way back to start of your project, IF all the 5 wires show proper voltage and ground, expect output pin than either the relay is bad or have to trace that commanded ground wire to find what is bad on the other end of that ground wire.
Either VATS, or ign switch, or wiring from it to that ground side of that coil

If anything, if you need to drive the car you could take two long wires as that jumper with a single pole switch
in driver's area to act as that jumper you had

 

[geocoy2]

If anything, if you need to drive the car you could take two long wires as that jumper with a single pole switch
in driver's area to act as that jumper you had

• Of course you are correct, I need to drive the car to record fail codes to see where we are at by now.
• This is a picture of the actual relay and the jumper wire I used.
• I'm thinking the relay is bad, but this is the second relay I have put in for this starter, so I'm wondering if it's more than the relay that is a problem.
• It would be easy to drive the car except that the front end is not installed. I pulled the whole front end off to get visibility to grounding points.
• 
  
• My thought is, if I can jump the car and start it at the relay, the relay must be bad.
• But that is the 2nd relay I have installed for the starter that puzzles me.
• However there are still other issues.
• I have no gas gauge reading and the Traction control light is still on.
• That tells me there is something else still going on
• They are probably unrelated issues but they are my next concern.
• The instrument panel fuse is not blown so why am I not getting a reading on the fuel gauge. That was never a problem before.

 

[Team ZR-1]

You need to spend all your time testing those 2 relays, follow that above video you found as it is simple
in using the car's battery, and a multi meter

Can be the starter solenoid or the starter itself is weak, causing high current load to the relay and causes burn spots on contacts or relays or heating up the coil of relay

As cheap as relays cost, buy a couple from an auto parts store
If having a D/C amp probe when cranking the engine have the probe clamped around the output of the relay and see how much current/amperage is being drawn and look at the specs of the relay to see what max amp draw it can handle

You're assuming the coil of the relay is good or is being commanded,
but you're bypassing the relay's purpose by shunting the voltage to the output of relay

 

[1997_eldorado]

• I have no gas gauge reading and the Traction control light is still on.
• The instrument panel fuse is not blown so why am I not getting a reading on the fuel gauge. That was never a problem before.

class2 communications are down....u1301
one of the modules or wiring issue

remember one of the wiring diagrams showed the fuel gauge was on class2

 

[geocoy2]

You need to spend all your time testing those 2 relays, follow that above video you found as it is simple
in using the car's battery, and a multi meter

Can be the starter solenoid or the starter itself is weak, causing high current load to the relay and causes burn spots on contacts or relays or heating up the coil of relay

As cheap as relays cost, buy a couple from an auto parts store
If having a D/C amp probe when cranking the engine have the probe clamped around the output of the relay and see how much current/amperage is being drawn and look at the specs of the relay to see what max amp draw it can handle

You're assuming the coil of the relay is good or is being commanded,
but you're bypassing the relay's purpose by shunting the voltage to the output of relay

Well guys I think we are about done here. I took the time to post my testing process and the results TWICE now and the moderator deleted it twice. Weve been doing this for about two years a now and suddenly he feels the need to start deleting post with no warning or a sufficient explanation. To me that defeats the whole purpose of the Forum.
This makes no sense to me:
Your post in the thread Blinking Check Engine Light 2004 SRX was deleted. Reason: bumping your thread with quotes is not allowed - have some patience.

Moderator: if you don't think working on a problem for two years require tremendous patience, Please define PATIENCE.

 

[geocoy2]

So I performed a test earlier and posted it TWICE, but it disappeared, so I'm trying to recall my test results. This is not so much from memory because I followed the video precisely for each step.
I discovered a mistake I made when you originally asked me which pins I used to jump the starter and start the car. I Used pins 85 and 86 to start the car.
So I have two relays available to test for operability. So that should be a simple testing procedure.
Both relays pass the click test when you touch a positive terminal to pin 85 and a negative to pin 86
I checked the resistance between pins 85 and 86 and they both read 72 to 75 ohms. This is considered normal.
When both relays are at rest there is no continuity between pin 87 and 30. This is considered normal because the circuit is open.
When I energized pins 85 and 86 (this closes the contact between pin 87 and pin 30) there is zero resistance on both relays, and there is continuity between 87 and 30.

• My conclusion would be that the original Relay that was on the car is still good, and my spare Relay is also good.

 

[1997_eldorado]

it may just be a misunderstanding. using quotes then editing may have caused some confusion.

 

[1997_eldorado]

so i believe the ground signal is not being sent to the relay by the system module.

 

[Team ZR-1]

so i believe the ground signal is not being sent to the relay by the system module.

This goes way back to the start of this thread
The OP must look at the service manual and find exactly where the control ground wire goes to and that is where the problem is
Ring the wire out from the relay to the end point to see if the wiring and the end pins are good and if so that problem is where that wire connects to, if IGN switch or security controller or successful VATS relearn
Once finding where the other end of that wire goes
Simply set up ohm meter at that end with key off would not show going to ground and then when key to start if then shows to ground, if so wire is bad, if not than not the wire
but what it connects to

Have to think about if indeed did short pin 85 which is fused 12 volts
and pin 86 which is the controlled ground, that should be a dead short and blow the fuse

In any case, puts to bed that the relays are not the cause of failure to start

 

[geocoy2]

it may just be a misunderstanding. using quotes then editing may have caused some confusion.

Who is getting confused?
I use quotes to identify the topics I want to respond too. I don't always want to talk to your whole commentary. I think its important to point out the topics and address each one carefully.

 

[Team ZR-1]

Who is getting confused?
I use quotes to identify the topics I want to respond too. I don't always want to talk to your whole commentary. I think its important to point out the topics and address each one carefully.

The problem maybe you're taking someone's post,
you click on quote,
but then mix your content mix with the quoted content and maybe confusing the forum software as you're trying to edit someone else's post ?

You should click quote, but then add your content before or after the posted quote

 

[1997_eldorado]

"sometimes its not what you say but how you say it "

sometimes the quotes have confused me because how they appear on screen and the edits having been changed
overall i think it's just a misunderstanding with the forum moderators that can be resolved.
realize we have used a considerable amount of bandwidth posting all these diagrams and we are on a free forum where moderators are just trying to maintain some organization on the topics......which they do on their own time.
many thanx to those behind the scene that don't always get the best treatment

 

[geocoy2]

1997_eldorado
so i believe the ground signal is not being sent to the relay by the system module.

• I like the way you think
• If the information required to start the car is not sent to the relay, then the car would not start
• However if I pull the relay and jump the points the system is using the same information that the relay was getting and it starts the car. Its got to be something else.
• Still trying to make sense of all this

 

[geocoy2]

Oh! Now you are starting to make some sense of this. In other words stop QUOTING. I can just as easily copy and paste and edit what I want to address.

Lets try doing that and see if we get a friendlier response from th moderator.
Thanks for your input

 

[geocoy2]

Team ZR-1
Have to think about if indeed did short pin 85 which is fused 12 volts
and pin 86 which is the controlled ground, that should be a dead short and blow the fuse

• Again I like the analytical way you think.
• In the video the operator clicks on pins 85 and 86 to get the Relay to click, its the click test. If it clicks, It should start the car
• When I pull the Relay and click on pin 85 and 86, its the same as the Click Test, but it starts the car.
• There is still something missing

 

[Team ZR-1]

1997_eldorado
so i believe the ground signal is not being sent to the relay by the system module.

• I like the way you think
• If the information required to start the car is not sent to the relay, then the car would not start
• However if I pull the relay and jump the points the system is using the same information that the relay was getting and it starts the car. Its got to be something else.
• Still trying to make sense of all this

The relay is used to handle the current load
The coil of the relay acts as a single pole switch, instead of you flipping the switch, the coil does it for you
Now the circuit is open, meaning the 12 volts source is not connected to starter circuit
When the coil is commanded, it causes the contacts of the relay to change state
So now the normally open side of contacts is triggered and goes to closed state
and thus the 12 volts is connected to wire going to starter

When using a jumper, not just spliced the 12 volts directly to the output to start circuit

GM prefers to turn coil on and off by controlling the ground side of relay

Problem is, and we need a GM wiring schematic for that relay and where the output of relay wire goes to
know if what is turning the ground on and off. If it is the IGN switch or the VATS security of PCM or BCM

 

[Team ZR-1]

Oh! Now you are starting to make some sense of this. In other words stop QUOTING. I can just as easily copy and paste and edit what I want to address.

Lets try doing that and see if we get a friendlier response from th moderator.
Thanks for your input

If you notice I am replying to your post,
I first click "quote" THAN click "reply" to left of it
and in doing so you see your quoted content has HTML tags of quote, your content and an end "/quote" tag

You then can add your content either above or after that poster's quoted content

 

[Team ZR-1]

Team ZR-1
Have to think about if indeed did short pin 85 which is fused 12 volts
and pin 86 which is the controlled ground, that should be a dead short and blow the fuse

• Again I like the analytical way you think.
• In the video the operator clicks on pins 85 and 86 to get the Relay to click, its the click test. If it clicks, It should start the car
• When I pull the Relay and click on pin 85 and 86, its the same as the Click Test, but it starts the car.
• There is still something missing

What is missing is you're thinking too hard,
your only task at this point is to find out via GM wiring schematic (post that here) is where the output pin #87 of relay goes

You need to do as I posted, find where that wire goes and use OHM meter to see if open ground
then when trying to start does it switch to ground when OHM meter probe is connected to where that wire connects to find out if the wire is the issue OR the device it connects to

OK so easy
IF when trying to start if the connection of device where #87 wire connects to goes to ground,
Then clearly I would look at that wire or its pins from device to #87 of relay

 

[1997_eldorado]

this help?