The heads and rings are usually good at 100K. You will probably still have cross hatching on the cyls. The heads also should be good and just need the surface cleaned up and checked for straightness.

The half case seal could be done, along with the oil pan seal.

Don't touch the rod or main bearings.

There is little left to improve performance but there is a little there.

 

Forget the cam regrind and heavier valve springs - the engine and drivetrain controls are already set up to go to 6,300 rpm redline without valve float and you can't change that. No one is presently programming PCM's for this package. You might talk to Lyndon Wester at Wester's Garage in Canada.

You do NOT need main studs - this critter already has 4-bolt mains and a girdle that are bulletproof.

If the lower block (halfcase) has no oil leaks, don't even open it up. ^^^

The pistons and rings will hardly be broken in at 100k.

Take a hard look at all 32 cam followers - if they are dished you'll need to replace them and maybe the cams - $1,400. Cams are scarce and new followers are $32 each.

Consider running a fleet/marine 10W-30 oil - Shell Rotella, Chevron DELO, Pennzoil Long Life. Read up on ZDDP and anti-scuff additives to find out why.

................please understand that there is practically NO aftermarket support for a FWD base Northstar drivetrain.

 

run compression check on all cylinders to pinpoint problem and focal area of analysis and repair

A compression test won't tell you jack about the head gaskets. You need to do a leak down test, but why bother. You seem to already know that the gaskets are bad. Not much to add to what Zonie and Sub said. Bottom end is bullet proof. Unless it's leaking, leave it alone, save your money and time and just do the head gaskets and studs and it will outlast the rest of the car.

 

I guess you’re right about that. I’m doing both sides so it doesn’t really matter which side blew out, but I wanted to know which gasket it was so I could pay a little more attention and have that head resurfaced and check it extra carefully. No reason to bother too much with the side that’s still good, just pull it off, stud it, replace the gasket and put it back on. I do feel much better knowing that the bottom end is rock solid, so I guess I’ll leave it alone. It doesn’t have any leaks or anything and everything under the car is clean and shows no signs of drips or leaks.

Is there a way to know if the bearings are still good other than opening the bottom? I plan on draining the oil and filtering it and cutting open the filter that’s on the car now to check for metal and debris, but since the guy that sold it to me lied his ass off and really screwed me over (so much that he made sure there was no coolant in it so it would start and drive just fine for a quick test drive without steaming or pushing fluid out the reservoir cap) I just want to be sure he didn’t put fresh oil in it and a new filter to hide the possible damage. I’m kind of at a loss here because I didn’t have the car when the problem happened. I’m coming into this after the fact with no information and trying to play catch-up.

 

If it's not knockin' and there's no debris in the filter, your bearings should be fine.... These aluminum rods get beat out of round pretty quick if you spin a bearing and they start really knockin' quickly.

 

If it's not knockin' and there's no debris in the filter, your bearings should be fine.... These aluminum rods get beat out of round pretty quick if you spin a bearing and they start really knockin' quickly.

The Northstar doesn't use aluminum rods. The rods are forged steel with floating wrist pins.

Oil pressure is one telltale for bearing condition - 10+ psi at hot idle and 35+ at 2,000, hot.

Send an oil sample to www.blackstone-labs.com

 

do yourself a BIG BIG favor and dump the Haynes manual for a Factory Service Manual ... worlds of difference

 

man! after a 12 hours day today working at this, can i just tell you what a useless piece of drivel that Haynes manual is!?!?!? wow! a 5 year old with an erector set could write a better manual!!!! this book has 12 years of devilles and 11 years of sevilles in it and it is completely worthless!!! after about 3 hours i completely abandoned it and am only using it as a reference of the order to pull things out. all the pictures and descriptions are completely wrong, and it is so confusing it's not even funny! it gives NO specific information for my car and doesn't even have a complete torque spec! i might as well have eaten that $25 and gone without.

just a little quote, "disconnect all vacuum hoses, coolant hoses, heater hoses, ground straps and fuel lines; and label them."...... that's it!!!!! really!? i never would have thought of that! LOL. how about telling me where they are and which connection is best to sever them at? how about how many of each i need to look for? i CAN NOT believe this book is so vague and useless.

anybody got a factory manual i can buy? i'll search ebay, but it would come in handy ASAP! there's no way i can tear into this motor with directions like that... i'm sure i can get the motor dropped just based on what i've done in the past, and being a decent grease monkey, but that isn't going to cut it when i'm in the motor!

 

My mistake, not sure what I was thinking about....

 

It doesn’t have any leaks or anything and everything under the car is clean and shows no signs of drips or leaks.

Good enough reason to leave the bottom end alone. The Northstar rarely ever leaks coolant into the oil when a head gasket goes so you can eliminate that worry as well.

i was reading that the rings usually wear out at 100k and the cylinders could probably stand for a honing and new rings.

Nonsense. Don't know where you read that, but when you pull the heads, look at the cylinder walls. I'll bet money that you will still find the factory honed crosshatch pattern in the walls. That's one of the benefits of a little oil consumption.

Check the heads if you want, but I don't think I have ever heard of one being warped.

do yourself a BIG BIG favor and dump the Haynes manual for a Factory Service Manual ... worlds of difference

:yeah: AMEN to that. Especially since you are not familiar with this engine. Can't emphasize this enough. You will not be sorry. It would be well worth the price even at full price from Helm Inc, but Ebay is your friend.

 

did the seller say nothing was wrong with car? if so, than he defrauded you. i hope you did not pay full price for a no problem car and now have to pull motor.

 

well friend, knowing absolutely nothing about the northstar motor and having never done this extensive of work on a front wheel drive car before, (I’ve changed CV joints ONCE!) i would NOT have bought anything with this type of problem!

Basically the guy said the car was in perfect condition and was “reliable and dependable”, “runs and drive excellent”, and “ready to ride”. It had no plate on it and the one I had with me was expired. I figured my buddy could follow me home and if I got pulled over, hopefully the new title and bill of sale would get me out of a ticket. I drove an hour away to see the car and took it on a quick test drive around the block. It started right up and drove smooth as silk. Shifted great and stopped great. Turned it off and it started right back up again. No smoke or steam in the exhaust and no funny smells. The only indicator light that was on was the “service steering system” light and it said “check coolant level”, but the car steered just fine and didn’t feel sluggish or anything. I felt and looked great. My mistake was the hood shocks were out of juice and that hood is HEAVY! I didn’t spend enough time poking around under the hood and didn’t run the car on the highway or go on a nice long ride, so it didn’t heat up. I didn’t notice the heat shield under the hood, above the reservoir cap, had coolant damage; and I didn’t notice several little sign that the car had been worked on. I mean, it’s 13 years old and looked good enough.

I drop $2800 in the guy’s hand and got about a mile down the road when I noticed I needed gas. After pulling into a gas station before the hour long ride home, I notice the car smelled hot, like overheating hot… I popped the hood and checked the reservoir and it’s empty. “ok, no biggie, I’ll add some coolant.” WRONG! I add and add and add and figure out pretty quick that the coolant system was completely dry!!! (hence the lack of steam in the exhaust and it starting right up! No coolant in the system, means no coolant in the cylinders) It starts coughing coolant out of the reservoir and I figure out that it must be pressurizing the coolant system because of something… Well, we all know what that something is, don’t we!? So now I have a car that I can’t drive and needs MAJOR work. So, here we are.

There’s a sucker born every minute, and that guy caught me on mine I guess. I had to rent a car dolly and tow it from fort. Lauderdale back to west palm beach where I live and now it’s in my back yard getting worked on, on the basketball court.

Soooo, like I said, very long story short; yes, I paid almost full price for a gorgeous Cadillac that I now have to pull the motor on. It is not my finest moment, but I’m really trying to stay positive and just focus on getting this thing running so I can enjoy it. I am just truly thankful that I have the tools and ability to do this repair and am not just up a creek on this! The stud kit will cost me $550 with the drill bit and plate and all that from Jake at Northstar Performance and the gaskets aren’t bad. If anything needs machined I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Basically that’s why I’m here. I’m kind of stuck and HAVE to do this and I need a little help and advice from some of you guys that have been here and done this before (like using a factory manual!!!) thank you for the insight and I really appreciate the support and help everyone.

Dan

 

I have done the repair, and I concur with everything zonie, sub, ranger, and the rest of the guys have told you - they are 100% on target

 

Sub, you are right about the case seal, I thought of that and didn't add it. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

Speedpigeon, a lot of us found that both HG's were leaking, just that one was worse than the other.

Do you actually have coolant in the oil? If not I would not touch the bottom end. As mentioned, the N* does not let coolant mix with the oil unless the HG's are extremely deteriorated.

 

no, I do not have coolant in the oil and it’s not over full or anything that you would normally see. Of course I checked that before I bought it, and if it had coolant in the oil I would have caught the problem.

My worry is that this guy knew what the problem was, drained the coolant and changed the oil and filter. I mean think about it, if you were going to intentionally sell a car with this problem what would you do? I have actually thought about this to try and figure out where I went wrong and how I missed it! Going over it in my head over and over again, that is exactly what I would do! Drain the oil, change the filter, drain the coolant system and not let anyone drive it long enough to let it heat up and show the problem!

I was so concerned looking for body rust around the cloth top and checking for leaky trunk seals and overspray and collision repair signs and frame and flood damage and undercarriage rust and the million things you look at, I missed that there was no coolant in the system because you can’t see into the radiator, only the reservoir!

 

I too can concur with everything everyone has said. I have done 37 of these repairs to date and all the info is right on. 2 in the shop now,1 with 52k and the other with 185k and still crosshatched like they were just rebuilt.

 

BTW, can one of you guys put me on a line to the factory manual so i know i'm looking at the right thing? i found a 1997 Cadillac Deville and ElDerado factory service manual. they're kind of a teal green and are running about $65-$100. am i looking at the right thing? this is what i've found:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1997-Cadillac-Deville-Eldorado-Seville-Factory-Manuals-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem439e9714d0QQitemZ290423510224QQptZMotorsQ5fManualsQ5fLiterature

 

http://helminc.com for a brand spankin' new one... or just keep looking around ebay

 

Yup, that's the correct set of manuals. Your other option is a subscription to http://www.alldatadiy.com. Basically an online version of the FSM.

 

Ranger... have you had experience or heard of people who use Mitchell OnDemand? i think it's basically the same as alldatadiy.com

 

I've had no experience, but have heard them mentioned before and don't recall ever hearing anything negative for what that's worth.

 

I don't know anything about their online service, but I personally never bothered buying FSM's because my public library has half of an aisle dedicated to Mitchell repair manuals, and they have yet to let me down. I think they are excellent. I can't think of anything that the FSM could possibly have that Mitchell doesn't provide ( I wouldn't know, I never had an FSM). All diagrams, schematics, DTC charts, and procedures for everything. It's all there and it's all accurate.

Not that I don't recommend someone getting an FSM, but if a Mitchell is within reach, I think it's sufficient.

 

Ok, so everything is dissconected and ready to drop. Well, almost. I didn't have a deep socket large enough for the transaxle nut! LOL. Gonna block the car up and lower the engine tomorrow after I run up to the shop and grab the socket.

As far as the manual goes, the haynes manual says, "the 4.6L engine requires special and expensive tools. The home mechanic should purchase a long block from a local dealer or other trusted engine rebuilder for instalation. The following information is ONLY for the 4.9L motor." WTF is that about!?!?!? Help me out here guys. What mystical magical piece of GM engineering could possibly cause this motor to be exculded from rebuild instructions? All I'm doing is pulling the heads off and putting in the studs! To the guys whom have done this before, what can I extpect?

 

Unless you have excessive oil leaks or nasty bottom end mechanical noises you don't need to go into the lower (short) block. Worry about the studs and the machining process - keep it all squeaky clean and put it back together.

 

Am I going to have any major problem getting these cams off and timing chains and stuff? Or getting them back in and keeping it in time? Will it be obvious once I get it open or do I need a magic password?

 

Nothing major, just an eye and patience. The chain tensioners have pin holes to insert a paper clip and hold them in their present position - you'll need to further collapse them on assembly. I saw a trick in here which locks the cams in position so they don't go out of time: make 4 strips of paper 3/4" wide and 4" long. Before you uncouple the cam sprockets and chains, roll the engine to TDC on #1 cylinder - timing cover off. Take off each cam bearing half closest to the sprocket and insert the paper tag in the bearing half - now replace it snugly - don't worry about torque - this locks the cam in the proper TDC #1 position. The paper flag reminds you to remove the paper and torque/angle the cam bearing bolts back to proper stretch.

You'll see the timing marks on the cam sprockets, intermediate sprocket, and crank gear. Make it all line up on assembly, and make very sure the engine - crank - is at the same TDC as when you started. There's another thread close by with the chains and timing marks posted in a diagram. Here or up in Deville, I think.

Subscribe your car to www.alldatadiy.com - you'll probably need the instant online GM service procedures: better to "do it by the book".

 

Yeah. I'm definitely getting a manual. Whether or not I could "figure it out" isn't the question. I'm pretty sure I could come up with my own system and get it done, but I would much rather error on the side of caution!

Paper clips and paper strips are a good trick. I was just going to punch and mark them, but paper works too. I can't imagine that I wouldn't be able to figure it out, I'd rather not just wing it though!

 

There a guy on chicago craigslist in buffalo grove il selling all 3 volumes of the gm manuals

 

Speedpigeon, STOP! Read this, then proceed.

Get the manual before you go further. What transaxle nut are you taking off that needs a large socket? You do not pull the axles (which is what I think you are doing).

Here's a thread that already has a lot of links and info so it doesn't need to be retyped.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forum.../northstar-performance-technical-discussion/176057-n-engine-removal-newbee.html

It has opinions on which technique is better. I prefer to drop the cradle.

An alldata subscription would probably give you all the info you need but I still prefer having a book rather than a laptop.

Throw the Haynes away or burn it.

There is another thread I did that is similar but has a little different info. I thought I bookmarked but can't find.

 

Re the bearings...if it has reasonable oil pressure the bottom end should still be good. It's hard to get rid of the evidence with just one oil change, so it probably never put coolant in the oil.

 

oh, yeah, i forgot. the oil filter looks like it's been there for a while so i'm going to cut it open today and see how it looks.

i'll check out the links and things and see what i'll do next, but just looking at it, how would you drop the engine and tranny without pulling the axle, unless you dropped the entire brake and rotor system and everything? it seems easier to just pull the CV joints, and remove the drive axle. then seperate the control arm from the steering knuckle... what am i getting into by pulling the drive axle other than replacing that seal?

 

You better read Post #35 and heed - before you really break something - You obviously NEED a real GM manual -

You pulled the power steering lines for no reason - the transmission cooler lines run to the driver's end of the radiator.

The entire drivetrain - engine, transmission, suspension, cradle - everything - comes out the bottom !!!

Oil filter - Grip the case in a vise. carefully hacksaw around the case right at the tapping plate crimp. Remove the tapping plate and drainback valve (if installed). Carefully remove the media pack and separate it from the end caps and center tube. Break the media pack into groups of 10 pleats. With a rag under the pleats, squeeze each piece of media until dry. NOW unfold the pieces, discounting any chips near the sawed end. You'll be able to see what is trapped on the outside of the media: oil flows into the tapping plate holes, through the media and up/out the center tube.

read this............

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/index.html

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/opinions.html

 

and hey!!!!!! what's with tying the powersteering system into the transaxle system!?!?!?!? i mean really!? imagine my surprise when i pulled the coolin lines off the transaxle and followed it around to the power streering pump!!!!

what was that engineering meeting like, "hey guys, lets tie a $3000 precision designed piece, to a $50 power streering pump! that way if the steering system fails, it will take the transaxle with it and we can sell them both! hahahahaha! oh wait, and lets just refuse to repair the entire engine, shorten the warrenty, and tell them to buy new ones! haaahahahahaha!"....

and my water pump is shot! (i took the thermostat housing off for clearence) it's CAKED with rust and now that everything is apart, i can see that it has been leaking. i had been told that they had problems so i will be replacing that too.

i played donny detective and have come up with a probable scenario. the water pump starts leaking, someone doesn't keep coolant in it, the engine over heats, the head bolts pull up and the gasket blows because i's not being pinched properly... how's that sound? it seems likely to me from seeing what i'm seeing pulling this thing down.