Cadillac Owners Forum banner

1 - 20 of 74 Posts

·
Registered
'93 Cadillac 60 Special; '03 Lincoln TownCar Limited ED
Joined
·
5,929 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
When I am in "Mixed Company" {Domestic and Import People} and the talk turns to cars, especially the luxury imports, the talk used to be about BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Infiniti and Lexus. I always wondered why Jaguar was (almost) always strangley omitted. ('Ya ever notice that?)
But more recently, I've taken note that Infiniti has now been mysteriously sent to sit in the corner & face the wall. It's now BMW, Mercedes, Audi & Lexus. But..... was Infiniti a "bad Boy" or has it been lousey advertising or or or WHAT?
Another wierd one. The Volvo S80 is catagorized as a luxury car. Heck, it's got the goods & the features and the price is around $60,000 fully loaded...so, why don't the "armchair experts" consider the S80 in the above grouping?
Anyone got any ideas on Infiniti ? S80 ? Jaguar ?
 

·
Registered
Unicycle
Joined
·
11,009 Posts
awww Sandy has been following the W140 threads :)

Honestly, I don't know... not as well known I guess? when I think of luxury imports Infiniti and Jaguar are last on my list of what I remember... not cause of the product or anything, but you just hear about the others alot more.
 

·
Registered
1992 STS / 2005 MB G500 / 2003 STS / 2006 XLR-V
Joined
·
11,694 Posts
Jesda is an expert on this... but the bottom line is Infiniti made a mis-step with marketing from DAY ONE. We were just talking about this earlier tonight. Let's turn the clock back to 1990, at a time when Infiniti and Lexus were babies, and no one gave a left nut about either company.

Both their halo cars, the Q45 and the LS400 were as close technologically as they would ever be. Engine power in the Q45 in fact was up near the 300 mark, and the Q was EASILY the faster car PERIOD. Interiors? Take your pick. Both cars had their interpretation of luxury, and both were probably right in their own way. Overall quality was slightly higher in the Lexus, but it was also more sterile (as always) so it was still a toss-up.

So what was left? Well, Marketing. While Infiniti was busy airing aloof commercials full of flying gaggles of geese and strange metaphors, Lexus was busy advertising... the CARS. Champagne bottles, marbles and all... Lexus was getting the very public's attention that had no f-ing clue what to think of Infiniti's strange attempts to do so.

After that, it was one mistake after another. In the mid 90's, Infiniti AGAIN lost substantial ground with the small following of PERFORMANCE-minded enthusiasts it had ALREADY garnered through word-of-mouth; and changed it's flagship to more directly compete with the LS. The result? A Slower, cushier and less desirable car all around. Infiniti had finally managed to alienate the last group that was still buying the Q45, and began to play a disappointing game of "catch-up" that would become the staple of the Q45's existence. The rest of the lineup at this point was nothing more than poorly rehashed versions of Nissan products that themselves were losing market-share dramatically through the 90s. The only ray of light in this entire arsenal was the Nissan Primera based G20, which was quickly gaining ground as a small, powerful and fun little car.

Unfortunately, Infiniti's advertising only got WORSE over time. They would heavily advertise a vehicle for a very short time, and then abandon it altogether, allowing many VIABLE products... i.e. the FIRST M45 (do you even remember it?), the QX4, the first gen G20 to languish, and eventually die. This combined with the fact that even though it had many revisions over time, the Q45 became an absolute laughing stock over everything from its eventual egg-shaped design, to its strange interior layout, made for a very poor outlook for Infiniti entering the early 2000's. After all, if you couldn't get your FLAGSHIP vehicle straight, what hope was there for the rest of your portfolio?

They are FINALLY starting to turn things around... marketing has improved somewhat, the vehicles are getting better (the G35 is a bread-and-butter seller and the G37 is a force to be recokned with, even for BMW's 335i), and quality is on the way up. But I think it will be ALONG time before we see Infiniti return to the mind of the consumer as a PREMIUM luxury brand, and not just Nissan's Acura.

Jaguar is something of a mystery. I dont for a minute believe that Jaguar ISN'T viewed still as a prime luxury contender, but I believe that alot of people still operate under the pretense that Jag is still somehow crippled by the poor reliability that obviously has changed drastically over the past several years. I dont think the issue is that Jaguar isnt considered a competitor, so much as people just dont seem to want to deal with it at all.

The S80 for the longest time was no more impressive than the Acura RL. It finally got a V8 after all these years so we'll see if it starts to pick up some ground.
 

·
Registered
1992 Town Car Cartier & 2014 Accord LX MTX
Joined
·
34,087 Posts
Ian, you should write books on this sort of thing.
 

·
Premium Member
2006 STS V8 AWD, '95 Ford Ranger
Joined
·
28,974 Posts
They have a non-existant dealer network. The nearest dealer to me is about 2200 miles away. Advertising is nonexistant or unmemorable at best. The Infiniti powered IRL cars were lead sleds. Losers all the way. Jaguar is coasting along on reputation which is spotty. Anybody mentions Jaguar and big leaks and temperamental are words that spring to mind. On the other hand I was working in my yard this afternoon and I heard this weird noise coming down the road. Here came a great big shiny old Continental convertible making noises like it was going to fall apart in front of me but it looked neat. I looked over at my new V8 AWD STS and said to myself, "What a Cadillac doesn't have it doesn't need".
 

·
Registered
1992 STS / 2005 MB G500 / 2003 STS / 2006 XLR-V
Joined
·
11,694 Posts
I'd like to correct Ian. Performance made a huge comeback at Infiniti but quality is on the way down.
Well, I guess I should have elaborated. What I meant was perceived quality. I sat in the G37 when I picked up my Rangie at Atlantic Infiniti, and I have to tell you, the fit and finish and feel of the interior was far ahead of the very first '03 G's despite being the exact same chassis. In other words, the dashboard didnt feel like it was going to fall off. It was for all intents and purposes, better than the Q45.

As far as overall quality, the Renault connection won't help anything.
 

·
Auto Enthusiast
1992 Eldorado Touring
Joined
·
3,688 Posts
Infiniti has turned into the poor man's BMW. Their current line up has beautiful machines full of amazing gadgets backed by powerful motors and even AWD in some.... hence, the poor mans BMW.

Every article I read compares the G/M to the 3/5 BMW counterparts and they sure come close! Infiniti struggled to compete with the big boys but could never establish a presence like Lexus despite coming to America only a few years after.

I don't think those crash test ratings that showed the G35 as one of the worst helps either.

As for Volvo and Jaguar... they are nice vehicles as well. My sister drives a S60R, an amazing machine.. but those two automakers have their loyal following that love those cars for what they are. A S80 is not going to make anyone oohhh or ahhhh unless you are an avid Volvo fanatic.
 

·
Registered
ZIP
Joined
·
51,864 Posts
I really think that having a top of the line, technology laden, true LUXURY car is needed. I don't think the Q45 has been anywhere near that for a decade.

Look at Lexus' LS460L. If I was looking at an uber-sedan to cheuffeur people around in, THAT would be the car. And having a hybrid edition? Genius. But Mercedes, BMW and Audi all have over the top large, luxury sedans.

IMO, the Jaguar XJ is too small and old fashioned, the Volvo S80 is not even near that class, and Cadillac and Lincoln have a lot of work to do to get there. I don't even think they're really looking to go there.
 

·
Registered
'93 Cadillac 60 Special; '03 Lincoln TownCar Limited ED
Joined
·
5,929 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
okay, now from me....

I guess none of you realize that Infiniti dropped the Q45 at the end of the 2006 model run. after selling just 366 units. The 2006 sported 20" rims/tires and 4-wheel steering, both new-for-2006. I WILL now confess that I had placed an order for one ! There were NO options, for 2006. I wanted the ONLY new color for 2006, a medium tone greyish-blue, with Ivory interior. My dealer could not produce the car, as dealers NEVER had the opportunity to ORDER! 366 were shipped here, arriving at the West Coast port(s) for across country distribution. My closest dealer (14 miles away) recieved 1 unit, a dark grey with light grey interior.
I got my D/P back. I was very sad. I really wanted it. I do love that car. Why? I dunno...style, looks, sorta a "Hey, Look At Me" & "WHAT'S THAT" kinda car, that stands out in a sea of M-B, BMW & Lexi. A sad ending to a really neat car, with IRS, 20" tires/Rims, 4 wheel steering, and alot of luxury.

Re: Volvo S80. Car has features the M-B, BMW & Lexi (also Infiniti & Jag) can only dream of.
A person looking at the others, and is not a "Status Junkie" and gets a GOOD salesman/woman and they
show & demo the car....Will sell the car over the others.
My accountant had a BMW 5 Series (2003) and prayed for the day his lease was over, 'cause he had so many problems with that car. Out of lease, he bought a S80. Now with 55,300 miles, he has yet to have problem #1.
The kids love it, as the rear seat center armrest has a built in 'Fridge to keep their drinks cold. and each can play their own games on the twin headrest mounted DVDs with wireless headphones. My CPA loves the power from the V-8 and the Pop Up Navi. His wife likes the voice activated phone. He is SOLD !!
But, people do NOT shop Volvo - so, who's the loser, there...

In my area, Jags sell very well, so I was kinda referring to across the USA, as a whole.
 

·
Registered
'04V, '05V, '06SRT8, '10V, '13ZL1, '12 V, '16 Z06 SC757
Joined
·
6,440 Posts
When the Q45 first came out, I loved the pictures. It was one of those rare times where a car really caught my attention. Kinda like the first time I saw the V. The Q had those gattling gun headlights, rear camera, great interior layout, etc., etc. Then I saw one in person and I couldn't have been more underwhelmed. The car has absolutely no presence. It frankly doesn't look like a luxury car.
Then the M45 came out and it only got worse. If not for the G35 coupe (not the god awful sedan) I wouldn't have even paid attention to Infiniti for the last 5 years. The new M45 is an improvement but for Audi, BMW and Mercedes money. Frankly I'd rather have one of the German makes. The G37 coupe looks incredible and even moreso in person. The next Q? Wow, I don't know if they can catch up to Lexus. And Acura? Don't even get me started. I don't think they're even trying.
 

·
Registered
'03 STS (RIP), '89 Eldorado, '13 Malibu, '89 Grand Wagoneer
Joined
·
2,191 Posts
It's really hard for me to say... mainly because I don't like imports. Most of them are as overpriced as they are overrated, especially Mercedes (sorry Chad). I remember my father-in-law used to swear by Mercedes, mainly because he had an old 240D for years and years, those cars were easy to work on and ran forever. A few years back he bought himself an E-Class, what a piece of junk! That thing spent more time in the shop than it did on the road. After like a year or so with the E-Class he decided he wanted "perfection" so he bought himself an S-Class - WRONG-O! Honestly, in the two years he kept that car it was in the shop something like 18 times. Every time they would pull up in the Envoy we knew he wasn't going to be in a good mood! Do you know what he's driving now? A DTS. He's sworn off German cars completely. But for some none of that matters, it's just the "panache" of the emblem, despite what JD Power's been saying about them for the last decade.

Anyway... BMW's are nice but they took years to be viewed as a top-notch luxury car. Remember when they were known as little, basic, drivers cars? Audi's - don't get it, gussied up VWs for sometimes twice the price. The Asian contenders... well, they don't do much for me either. Lexus' may be rock solid dependable but they are so BORING... they might know how to build a car but they've yet to learn how to build a car with a soul. If I'm spending 60-large on a car why on earth would I want it to look absolutely generic looking. Acura's a even worse... there isn't a single model that looks distinctive and most of them are an obvious Honda with a different badge on them. Then there's Infinity... the only thing worse than a boring looking car is an ugly looking car, then again they're all Nissan's, which are, IMO the ugliest of all the Japanese manufacturers. Like someone said before, they lack both market presence and competent advertising. They should have had a home run on that FX as it really is a sexy looking crossover but they never played it up.

I really wish Mazda had went though with their planned Amati luxury division back in the 90s. They are the only one who have figured out the "soul" part of the equation. If they had done so they would certainly be giving BMW a run for their money these days.

And Jaguar - beautiful cars. Even in their dark day of the 80s they were still producing gorgeous cars. My neighbor has an '85 XJ6, british racing green with a tan interior, absolutely stunning. I always tell him if he ever gets rid of it to tell me so I can purchase my first ever foreign car. A lot of people say that Jag's gone down hill since Ford bought them. Yes and No. Their product quality has improved drastically thanks to Ford, yet they suffer the same problem as Infinity, inadequate advertising. Unfortunately they've recently release pics of the production XF... horrible. There's nothing about it that says "Jag." Maybe that's what they need, but this new design language will either make or finally break them.

So yeah... that ramble should just about cover it...
 

·
Registered
1992 STS / 2005 MB G500 / 2003 STS / 2006 XLR-V
Joined
·
11,694 Posts
Anyone familiar with Mercedes knows that any E from 1996 on (w210) and any post 2000 S klasse is utter junk in the reliability department when compared with the cars of before. The only other Ford related problem I see w/jaguar is that some of their heaviest hitters (S type and X type) could barely be differentiated from the Ford roducts they were based on! In many ways the Lincoln LS was and is to this day a better buy than the s type based on it. The x type was nothing more than a rehash of an OLD mondeo platform.

JAG is improving with the latest models, but i guess it wont matter when ford sells them out :nono:
 

·
Registered
ZIP
Joined
·
51,864 Posts
okay, now from me....

I guess none of you realize that Infiniti dropped the Q45 at the end of the 2006 model run. after selling just 366 units. The 2006 sported 20" rims/tires and 4-wheel steering, both new-for-2006. I WILL now confess that I had placed an order for one ! There were NO options, for 2006. I wanted the ONLY new color for 2006, a medium tone greyish-blue, with Ivory interior. My dealer could not produce the car, as dealers NEVER had the opportunity to ORDER! 366 were shipped here, arriving at the West Coast port(s) for across country distribution. My closest dealer (14 miles away) recieved 1 unit, a dark grey with light grey interior.
I got my D/P back. I was very sad. I really wanted it. I do love that car. Why? I dunno...style, looks, sorta a "Hey, Look At Me" & "WHAT'S THAT" kinda car, that stands out in a sea of M-B, BMW & Lexi. A sad ending to a really neat car, with IRS, 20" tires/Rims, 4 wheel steering, and alot of luxury.

Re: Volvo S80. Car has features the M-B, BMW & Lexi (also Infiniti & Jag) can only dream of.
A person looking at the others, and is not a "Status Junkie" and gets a GOOD salesman/woman and they
show & demo the car....Will sell the car over the others.
My accountant had a BMW 5 Series (2003) and prayed for the day his lease was over, 'cause he had so many problems with that car. Out of lease, he bought a S80. Now with 55,300 miles, he has yet to have problem #1.
The kids love it, as the rear seat center armrest has a built in 'Fridge to keep their drinks cold. and each can play their own games on the twin headrest mounted DVDs with wireless headphones. My CPA loves the power from the V-8 and the Pop Up Navi. His wife likes the voice activated phone. He is SOLD !!
But, people do NOT shop Volvo - so, who's the loser, there...

In my area, Jags sell very well, so I was kinda referring to across the USA, as a whole.
I knew that Infiniti was dropping it's Q45, but it was such a non-story, I couldn't remember if it had happened yet.

The S80 is just not a great luxury car as is perceived by 90% of the buying public who perceive what they feel a luxury car should be. The Volvo doesn't have the driver involvement. That would be OK if it were a comfortable drive. It may be nice but it is not luxury comfortable. The features are nice but it's lost without an identity in an ever increasing market.
 

·
Auto Enthusiast
1992 Eldorado Touring
Joined
·
3,688 Posts
Wow, I thought the Q45 was an afterthought way before 2006..

I never liked Volvo until I drove my sister's S60R. The suspension and AWD in that car are amazing. Volvo has its own following and has actually grown for the better with Ford.

I can never like Jaguar. The 1998 XJ8 I had was very bland and underpowered. I love the styling of the R series, but I just can't justify spending that kind of money when I could have a AMG or M tuned vehicle with better resale value.
 

·
Registered
Previous STS' 1995/97/99/01/03
Joined
·
1,194 Posts
The two names I hear mentioned the most with business associates are BMW and Lexus.
One for driving experience, the other for durability and fit/finish.
Funny, Acura is never mentioned, nor Infiniti.

I do remember that people were turned off by the original Q45's absence of a grill, and a very austere interior, lacking in the warmth of wood.
By comparison, the LS400 was opulent.
I also recall a change of powertrain displacement in the Q45 in the mid nineties, which lowered horsepower. The car magazines took real jabs
at that. Too bad, I test drove a new Q45 in 1993, and it was the probably the nicest, most solid car I had driven at that point in life.
I never felt the word got out to the masses on a fine car.
 

·
Registered
1992 STS / 2005 MB G500 / 2003 STS / 2006 XLR-V
Joined
·
11,694 Posts
The two names I hear mentioned the most with business associates are BMW and Lexus.
One for driving experience, the other for durability and fit/finish.
Funny, Acura is never mentioned, nor Infiniti.

I do remember that people were turned off by the original Q45's absence of a grill, and a very austere interior, lacking in the warmth of wood.
By comparison, the LS400 was opulent.
I also recall a change of powertrain displacement in the Q45 in the mid nineties, which lowered horsepower. The car magazines took real jabs
at that. Too bad, I test drove a new Q45 in 1993, and it was the probably the nicest, most solid car I had driven at that point in life.
I never felt the word got out to the masses on a fine car.
Yup, that pretty much sums it up.
 

·
Registered
1992 STS / 2005 MB G500 / 2003 STS / 2006 XLR-V
Joined
·
11,694 Posts
Wow, I thought the Q45 was an afterthought way before 2006..

I never liked Volvo until I drove my sister's S60R. The suspension and AWD in that car are amazing. Volvo has its own following and has actually grown for the better with Ford.

I can never like Jaguar. The 1998 XJ8 I had was very bland and underpowered. I love the styling of the R series, but I just can't justify spending that kind of money when I could have a AMG or M tuned vehicle with better resale value.
Yea, I agree with all your points. I also thought the S60R and the 850 T5R that came long before it were the only cars in Volvo's recent history that aside from their safety following, really put them on the map at all.

The only R Jag I might consider scooping up once the resale finally goes completely in the toilet, is the 2003 S Type R. Those are already down in the 17-22k range. Unfortunately Ford really shot themselves in the foot with the LS though. Had the LS received an "SVT" variant with the same motor, I think it would have sold very well.

Not sure what you mean about us "not knowing" that the Q was dropped in 2006, I thought that was pretty commmon knowledge and my earlier post eluded to the fact that the Q45 just wasnt selling at all anymore. Its too bad you couldnt get your hands on one though, but maybe its for the best, you dont really strike me as an Infiniti guy.
 

·
Registered
'93 Cadillac 60 Special; '03 Lincoln TownCar Limited ED
Joined
·
5,929 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Yes, I always kinda sorta liked the Q
But the restyle a couple years ago (not sure of the year -
but it was the year it got to look like the final edition of '06 -)
that it really won me over. ALOT of people look at at, and
you can tell they admire it & have NO CLUE what it is.
(I like that - "that" being diffferent then the masses).

So, I didn't get it. :crybaby: It woulda been nice.

I always wanted a "different" kind of "fancy" car.
When they all drove Caddies, I bought a bunch of
Imperials. (1972 / 1974 / 1976 / 1982.) When
21 and all the guys were in 'Stangs & Camaros & Firebirds....
I bought a Buick Skylark Gran Sport 455, and showed them
what fast really was ! :thumbsup:

That is what the Infiniti Q was....the OTHER less traveled road.
My dealer said that it was possible that NONE were ever made in
that new-for-2006 color, other than paint chips in the book, with 366 built
to come here (USA) perhaps they never bothered to add that color.
It would have repalced my Town Car, daily driver. The Sixty Special
is in storage.
 
1 - 20 of 74 Posts
Top