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02 Eldorado ESC, true 2.5" duals, 18X10's & 275/40ZR18's, 14" rotors, C5 Vette brakes
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
VIDEOS: Rear Racing Suspension Road Tests-- 02 Eldorado


To demonstrate the importance of the rear suspension architecture in a front wheel drive race car, the following short road test was conducted.

The stock front suspension has not yet been repaired or upgraded. The stock front end is the FE1 soft ride suspension (101,500 miles) with badly worn sway bar end links.

The factory 16 X 7 wheels and 225/60 R16 all season radials are still in use.

Prior to building the rear suspension, it had failing air shocks. To anyone who has driven one of these FE1 cars with bad rear shocks and bad front sway bar end links, you know how it can lean and understeer while cornering.

This video demonstrates the dramatic difference a race-tuned rear suspension can make. In a FWD race car, the REAR suspension is the foundation of handling. Due to the current condition of the front suspension, and use of the stock wheels/tires, the level, stable and safe ride characteristics demonstrated here are ALL coming from the rear end.
The speeds being driven here represent the previous traction limit of the car; however, as you can see by the level ride and hear by the absence of tire noise, the car is nowhere close to its limits.

http://youtu.be/DQfiwc55ZHY
 

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2002.5 F55 CORSA STS, 2014 Explorer XLT FWD
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What's so special ??? Almost every FWD Cadillac in these forums will run that smooth, sweeping turn semi-rural road at that same 45 - 65 mph all day long - with about the same handling characteristics.

Maryland's eastern Shore is covered with roads like that - many are 2 lane - with 50 and 55 mph speed limits. A drive like that is commonplace for Karen and I on our way to a favorite lunch spot.

Curious that you feel that the front end suspension condition has no bearing on the handling of a FWD car with a 60/40 weight distribution. Get into some tight turns with heavy braking/acceleration and the FE1 front end will plow like a John Deere.

EDIT: For more FE1 handling videos - lots of them - look for the autocross videos using car-mounted and handheld cameras posted last year by gdwriter using his SLS. Quite informative - here's one set; there are others.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/community-lounge-introductions-general-discussion/240516-my-second-autocross-time-video.html
 

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2001 Seville STS, 1990 Seville (RIP), 1972 Sedan Deville
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Yeah not to bust em on you but that's far from aggressive cornering.

It sounds good though.
 

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02 Eldorado ESC, true 2.5" duals, 18X10's & 275/40ZR18's, 14" rotors, C5 Vette brakes
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Discussion Starter #4
Not wanting to post anything aggressive only to have it deleted for being reckless or in the category of road racing.
Not wanting to post anything that can bring legal troubles my way.
Not stating that the front suspension has no effect on handling.
Only cataloging the first step of a build up to show level vs leaning by rear suspension work only.
It's obvious that the failing FE1 front suspension can't control anything in its state of disrepair so the video shows a rear suspension working without much help at all from the front suspension.
Clearly stated that the video does NOT represent the car's current cornering limits.
 

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2002.5 F55 CORSA STS, 2014 Explorer XLT FWD
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No problem - for your own baselines, take the car to a few sanctioned/controlled weekend autocross meets. They're fun, instructional, and the chances of damage and traffic tickets are zilch. You can also partake of one of the ??? local ??? NASCAR track "Drive Your Car" Fridays - you're chaperoned and get a crack at what it's like to drive high-banked ovals. Standing Mile airport anywhere near you ?

Somewhere near LR there has to be a club or two that does this sort of stuff. All you need is the car, a helmet, a few bucks and the will to learn to drive the car to its limits. No, one of these FWD monsters will NEVER beat the prepped ricers and Beemers - but (in class) they discharge themselves quite handily around the pylons.

"Seville/Eldorado/Deville" and "race" are mutually exclusive words............... and all of us wish they weren't.

Here's the background for this suspension workup ........

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/553450-build-codys-autocross-road-racing-2002-a.html
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
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19,535 Posts
hey cody - you're back?
still using the Dodge truck springs and hose clamps?:thumbsup:
 

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02 Eldorado ESC, true 2.5" duals, 18X10's & 275/40ZR18's, 14" rotors, C5 Vette brakes
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254 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Hey basscatt! The gang's all here I see.
Dodge truck springs? Yes, they work great. 20,000 miles with them and no problem. Took a 1,000 mile road trip during the Thanksgiving holiday with 5 adults in the car and a packed trunk.
Everyone but me slept like a baby.
No harsh ride complaints.

Hose clamps? Never used them... Had some U-bolts in there for a short while as a retainer test, but took them off 15,000 miles ago as they were not needed.

Still have the dog too... The one that likes to curl up next to me when I'm under the car.
Things going good for you?
 

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02 Eldorado ESC, true 2.5" duals, 18X10's & 275/40ZR18's, 14" rotors, C5 Vette brakes
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Discussion Starter #8
A blast between exits: a few weeks back as I reached the 100,000 mile mark, I took the car for a blast between exits to display my confidence in the strength of the engine.

It was inadvertently an additional road test of the rear suspension’s ability to stabilize the car because despite the floaty FE1 front end and its sloppy worn out swaybar end links, the car remained rock-solid in the crosswind of the 18 wheeler I was passing as I reached 95 MPH. I had no idea I was going that fast until the tip of the speedometer needle peeked above my hand that was holding my phone during filming. That’s when I let off the accelerator. The car was as stable fighting the crosswind at 95 as it is driving through town.

Not bad for an “incredulous hack job” using salve Dodge Sport truck springs and Pro Comp ES9000 off road racing shocks designed for a Ford Ranger 4X4 with 4” lift.

Harsh ride? My 1 year-old grandson falls asleep in his car seat in the back. My dad, son, stepson and daughter-in-law could not tell any modifications had been done by the feel of the ride.

A 20,000 mile testimony of how well the combination worked; comfortable, stable, safe, and level.

Oh, and that’s classical music being played on the stereo. IMO: the only Cadillac go fast music.

 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
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19,535 Posts
A blast between exits: a few weeks back as I reached the 100,000 mile mark, I took the car for a blast between exits to display my confidence in the strength of the engine.

It was inadvertently an additional road test of the rear suspension’s ability to stabilize the car because despite the floaty FE1 front end and its sloppy worn out swaybar end links, the car remained rock-solid in the crosswind of the 18 wheeler I was passing as I reached 95 MPH. I had no idea I was going that fast until the tip of the speedometer needle peeked above my hand that was holding my phone during filming. That’s when I let off the accelerator. The car was as stable fighting the crosswind at 95 as it is driving through town.

Not bad for an “incredulous hack job” using salve Dodge Sport truck springs and Pro Comp ES9000 off road racing shocks designed for a Ford Ranger 4X4 with 4” lift.

Harsh ride? My 1 year-old grandson falls asleep in his car seat in the back. My dad, son, stepson and daughter-in-law could not tell any modifications had been done by the feel of the ride.

A 20,000 mile testimony of how well the combination worked; comfortable, stable, safe, and level.

Oh, and that’s classical music being played on the stereo. IMO: the only Cadillac go fast music.

============================
I reached 95 MPH.:shocked2:
wasn't ya SKAIRRT?




:~blah:

Not bad for an “incredulous hack job” :yawn:
you are a LEGEND - :bows:

--------------

hey - what happened to your very own "sub-forum" on that other site -
 

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02 Eldorado ESC, true 2.5" duals, 18X10's & 275/40ZR18's, 14" rotors, C5 Vette brakes
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Discussion Starter #10

I’m not sure if the moderators would allow a video aggressive enough to have slight tire noise to stay on this forum unless it was a track setting; so for now another one that displays the stability, safety, level ride, and comfort of the Eldorado despite the fact that the rear racing suspension is coupled with a cloud-soft front suspension that has workout sway bar end links making front stabilization all but nonexistent.

This is a fun but dangerous section of road because of how it is laid out. In the beginning of the video you can see that the interstate is much lower than the access road I am driving on. The onramp involves a tight S turn that drops downhill to the interstate’s short merge lane. This makes both turns of the “S” banked in the wrong direction causing the car to lean to the outside. That plus a quick downhill drop can easily cause any car to lose traction. I have seen the result of cars missing this turn and getting thrown into the wall under the bridge and it isn’t pretty. There is no room for error here. Take this ramp too fast and total the car. I have followed some very high dollar sport scars through this area that were playing and have been able to keep up. I have yet to be tailgated by one following me that wanted to go faster.

This is NOT one of those aggressive passes through the area…. Just a safe and quick pass; not aggressive enough to be considered aggressive, but diffidently fast enough to put a minivan into the wall.

http://youtu.be/SbtokRLZUkE
 

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2002.5 F55 CORSA STS, 2014 Explorer XLT FWD
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Re: VIDEOS: Rear Racing Suspension Road Tests-- 02 Eldorado

"The Moderators" have quite a bit of leeway in whether or not a particular story or video stays posted - if you were bumper to bumper or side to side with a ricer or MB the video would be gonzo. As is, it's a good video of proper acceleration and merge procedures from an on-ramp.
 

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1985 Seville
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Re: VIDEOS: Rear Racing Suspension Road Tests-- 02 Eldorado

What's the point of this? No ones going to put dodge truck springs held down by hose clamps on there vehicles because you think its a good idea.
 

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2001 Seville STS, 1990 Seville (RIP), 1972 Sedan Deville
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This isn't meant to be insulting, so don't take it the wrong way. Maybe you should hold off on the videos until you can get the car somewhere where you can legally drive it fast around some more "track like" corners. Again, not being an ass, but so far they're just showing things that these cars can do quite easily in stock form.
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
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19,535 Posts

I’m not sure if the moderators would allow a video aggressive enough to have slight tire noise to stay on this forum unless it was a track setting; so for now another one that displays the stability, safety, level ride, and comfort of the Eldorado despite the fact that the rear racing suspension is coupled with a cloud-soft front suspension that has workout sway bar end links making front stabilization all but nonexistent.

This is a fun but dangerous section of road because of how it is laid out. In the beginning of the video you can see that the interstate is much lower than the access road I am driving on. The onramp involves a tight S turn that drops downhill to the interstate’s short merge lane. This makes both turns of the “S” banked in the wrong direction causing the car to lean to the outside. That plus a quick downhill drop can easily cause any car to lose traction. I have seen the result of cars missing this turn and getting thrown into the wall under the bridge and it isn’t pretty. There is no room for error here. Take this ramp too fast and total the car. I have followed some very high dollar sport scars through this area that were playing and have been able to keep up. I have yet to be tailgated by one following me that wanted to go faster.

This is NOT one of those aggressive passes through the area…. Just a safe and quick pass; not aggressive enough to be considered aggressive, but diffidently fast enough to put a minivan into the wall.

http://youtu.be/SbtokRLZUkE
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aggressive enough to have slight tire noise
didn't hear any tire noise -

so for now another one that displays the stability, safety....................
but that IS a pretty bad double CLUNK at the 3 second mark -
better check those hose clamps - something is loose -

despite the fact that the rear racing suspension...................
I really get a chuckle every time you refer to your
rear racing suspension - :histeric::histeric:

------------------
 

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02 Eldorado ESC, true 2.5" duals, 18X10's & 275/40ZR18's, 14" rotors, C5 Vette brakes
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Discussion Starter #15
This isn't meant to be insulting, so don't take it the wrong way. Maybe you should hold off on the videos until you can get the car somewhere where you can legally drive it fast around some more "track like" corners. Again, not being an ass, but so far they're just showing things that these cars can do quite easily in stock form.
MC, I believe you are missing the point ; there is more to a streetable racing suspension that its ability to race…. It must be streetable. When someone hears that my rear suspension’s original 270 lb. per inch springs were replaced by 1,000 lb. per inch springs and the air shocks were replaced by 4 X 4 off road racing shocks, the initial impression is that it is a harsh-riding suspension that is no good for street use. These videos and the accompanying text demonstrate that is NOT the case. I have shown the rear suspension’s stability, safety, reliability, and sporty but very comfortable ride at 95 MPH as well as in fast- but not aggressive- cornering. This is VERY important for anyone who plans to modify a daily driver. I drive just over 50 miles per day as well as take 500 mile and 1,000 mile family trips in the car. How many ricers with racing suspensions can do that? They are like go-karts; they bounce, they are irritating to ride in; they hurt your back, they bounce on potholes and skate over gravel. My car? Just as mild mannered as before; but without the hovercraft-like floaty feeling in the back. Sure you get a little Camaro-like jolt if you hit a pothole, but no log truck ride.

It is just as important to demonstrate the car’s streetability as it is to demonstrate its track readiness.

I do plan to post videos at track speeds (in a legal area) when the car is more ready (and maybe – if I get the chance- in its current soft-front condition). My purpose with these videos – is to highlight the streetability and function of the rear suspension as made possible by the dilapidated condition of the front swaybar end links and FE1 front end. When I have the front end built, it will be difficult to distinguish which suspension end is pulling more of the workload. I plan to show video proof that it is the rear end doing the bulk of the work here.

The main complaint I hear about these cars is that the aftermarket does not support it for performance modifications…. I had a conversation with the lead development technician of an aftermarket company prior to designing and building this rear end. That company is interested in seeing my results and Cadillac enthusiast’s interest level in purchasing a “GT” or “V” suspension kit for the Eldorado/Seville. But they have no data to work from and cannot risk the man-hours involved in such a development process due to it being a small niche market.

Since I am building such a suspension anyway, I offered to share my results with them as I complete the car. This may-or may not- result in a kit being available for order over the internet with springs, shocks and swaybars being built for the car as a direct result of the data I provide. And I will see no monetary gain from this. However, I may be pioneering the only handling kit that will ever be commercially available for these cars. And if not, then I will be able to provide a complete list of modifications so that the do-it-yourselfer can build the car in 2 levels; Street with track ability (GT) or Track with streetability (V).

I have more work to do to demonstrated that the rear suspension is safe, stable, streetable, not too harsh, and capable of high speeds.

There will be more videos as my success of phase one becomes well documented. After phase 2, the front suspension will be a team-member of the rear and I will no longer be able to demonstrate the effect of the rear suspension as the foundation to building a good overall handling platform. The front suspension can only be as good as the rear suspension can support in a FWD car. The front suspension is like a house; without a solid foundation, it can’t stand strong.

So, no, I do not expect anyone to be impressed with the “racing” part of my suspension at this time; the spotlight is on its streetability.
 

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I agree streetability is important, completely. But that's very hard to show in a video.

Moving on. What's the next step? Plans for the front?
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
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19,535 Posts
I agree streetability is important, completely. But that's very hard to show in a video.

Moving on. What's the next step? Plans for the front?
============================
Plans for the front?
Peterbilt coil springs -
and swaybars from a 1987 Chev G30 van -
 

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02 Eldorado ESC, true 2.5" duals, 18X10's & 275/40ZR18's, 14" rotors, C5 Vette brakes
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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)

Richard is a 29 year-old owner and driver of an S10 drag truck powered by a highly modified small block 400; he is also an experienced motocross racer and the driver of a sport bike. He asked me to take him for a ride. This is the video I referred to in an earlier post that has some slight tire noise. From the responses, I think I can get by with posting the first few seconds as we built up speed.

Maybe the moderators won’t delete it.

Richard is not easy to impress; but voices his reaction as we get rolling.

These are turns 1 and 2 from the same street as the first road test video:


http://youtu.be/wTvApsedGvs
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
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19,535 Posts
still didn't hear any "tire noise" -

you sure aren't a smooth driver -

three corrections on that second curve -
not very good-


I'm getting bored - :yawn:
 
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