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Has anyone installed the TORNADO FUEL SAVER? According to all the web surfing I have done the results appear to be favorable in both performance and gas mileage improvement. Of course the best testimonials to me would be from fellow Cadillac enthusiasts from this forum. Any comments would be appreciated. If you're not familiar with this item here's a link to refer to the specs http://www.autostreak.com/tornado/
 

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While I have never used one, the theory behind it has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt.

Initially, a mere straightening of the incoming air charge was thought to be highly desireable. You may remember the metal mesh air straighteners that GM used on it's C3 carburated vehicles in the late-80's.

Adding a rotationally-tweaked air charge to the intake can only add benefits. When air and fuel are more efficiently mixed together, there is a definite boos in the efficiency of combustion.

Is it worth the money? I dunno... you decide. Bring the car into a dealer for a warranty engine or trans repair with the Tornado installed... see what they tell you about your now voided warranty. :crying2:

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Ellisss
 

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THis has been posted before with almost everyone agreeing that it is a skam.....your better off getting a k&n and getting real results....but if u wanna install it and dyno it you can tell us if we are all wrong....
 

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I disagree, but then again I'm just a newbie. :halo:

K&N filters offer a single advantage, that being a lower restriction against the incoming air. This does indeed have an advantage. It is, however, a completely different kind of advantage than a device designed to add a rotational force to the incoming air charge.

Like I said, the theory behind rotational charges added to incoming air have been proven beyond doubt.

Also, like I said, it may not be worth the cost (I don't know how much) or the risk to a new car's warranty.

Take it or leave it. ::shrug::

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I am typically leery of such devices. Their claims of fuel economy improvement are suspect at best. Their explanation of how the 'Tornado' works seems bogus, as well. I am a graduate mechanical engineer who concentrated on fluid dynamics and fluid mechanics as an undergraduate and worked on burner design after grad school. Here are a few things to consider:

Turbulent air does not move faster around bends and corners in tubing. Turbulence is the enemy of efficient fluid flow in tubes. (Liquids and gasses are both considered fluids.)

The claim of better fuel atomization seems false, since most modern automobiles have the fuel injected almost directly above the intake valve(s). The atomization of the fuel is caused by the injector orifice and the pressure of the liquid fuel behind it. On a carburetted vehicle, turbulent flow might affect the vaporization (evaporation) of the fuel in a positive way, but only beyond the carburettor.

Here's the part that gets a bit technical. I don't see how the tornado device could possibly affect the turbulence of the airflow beyond the car's intake tube (the part of the intake system furthest upstream). Here's why:

All fuel injected vehicles (including those with throttle body fuel injection) rely on a device called a mass airflow sensor to 'tell' the computer how much air is flowing through the air intake. This sensor is basically a little resistor wire which heats up as electricity flows through it, and a thermocouple, which is a bi-metallic circuit that generates a varying voltage output depending on temperature. These two devices are encased together in a little ceramic disc about the size of a match head. The engine control computer keeps the disc at a constant temperature by varying the amount of electricity flowing through the resistor wire, and monitors the temperature of the disc by monitoring the voltage signal from the thermocouple.

The faster the air moves past this disc, the more quickly it cools off, and more electricity must be sent through the resistor wire to keep the disc at a constant temperature.

The rate at which heat dissipates from the disc at specific air flow rates is stored in the computer. For any given rate of heat dissipation (which the computer knows based on how much juice it has to send to the resistor wire) the computer is able to calculate how fast the air is moving through the intake tube.

Since the diameter of the intake tube is constant, the computer can then calculate the mass (or amount) of air flowing through the intake tube at any given time, and adjust the fuel flow rate accordingly, for optimum power and efficency.

In order for all that to happen with any accuracy, the airflow past the disc cannot be turbulent (the turbulent air would cause constant fluctuations in the output of the sensor). To that end, the sensor is located inside a honeycomb matrix made out of thin plastic (imagine bundling a bunch of drinking straws together) which 'straighten out' the airflow.

Because this honeycomb would be located downstream from the tornado device, any turbulence introduced to the airflow would be negated by the mass airflow sensor assembly.

Sorry for the long-windedness, but I don't think the thing would work at all.
 

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cn2800 said:
...Sorry for the long-windedness, but I don't think the thing would work at all.
Not such a long-winded post... but not entirely accurate, either. :bonkers:

First, the MAF is a hot-wire based frequency generator. No disc is involved.

Second, it's a given that turbulent air charges don't move around a corner faster (duh?). An air charge with a rotational component to it will definitely burn more efficiently than one without... and that is regardless of the injector's proximity to the intake valve.

Third, the device in question would be located (as far as I know) downstream of the MAF.

Fourth, the PCM's software has a correction factor/function that takes into account turbulence induced by varying road conditions (which should be known by someone with your education)

What about the vehicles that didn't use speed-density based software, and hence had no MAF sensors? Weren't you aware that MAP sensors, in some applications, supplied the numbers for the calculations done by the PCM?

Fifth, on all late-model GM port fuel injected vehicles... the MAF sensor isn't at all responsible for fuel injector pulsewidth. It is the upstream oxygen sensors that, by reading a per-bank exhaust gas oxygen content, motivate the PCM to adjust both fuel trim (long and short) and injector pulsewidth. Injectors are adjusted on-the-fly by O2 sensor signals mostly. MAF signal accounts for maybe 25% of the adjustment, and that is only after the vehicle is at operating temperature.

I am extremely aware of the design of a Northstar's intake runners and combustion chamber. It's more-or-less a straight-shot after the circular intake plenum. A rotationally assisted intake air charge will, without any doubt, have a positive effect.

Will the advantage be nominal or drastic? I don't know. Is the benefit(s) worth the risk of warranty loss? I doubt it.

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That's excellent information. I did not know the O2 sensors were the primary source of data for determining mixture.

You are correct in stating that a turbulent cylinder charge will burn much more efficiently. Perhaps the gist of what I am saying is that I do not see how introducing turbulence to the intake air so far upstream of the cylinder could have such a drastic effect as what is claimed on the tornado website.

Isn't the idea behind polished and tuned intake runners to minimize the amount of drag/turbulence in the incoming air while maximizing the pressure of the air in the intake runners? It seems to me that the tornado would simultaneously introduce turbulence and disrupt the natural pressure waves to which the intake was so laborously tuned by GM engineers.

Additionally, if such an inexpensive device with no moving parts could have such a dramatic effect on performance and efficency, why would the automobile not come with one? (Maybe that's the real question...)
 

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cn2800 said:
That's excellent information. I did not know the O2 sensors were the primary source of data for determining mixture.
On a closed-loop (feedback) system, the upstream O2 sensor has always been the head-honcho.

Downstream O2 sensors, (those located after the catalytic converter(s)), are in no way responsible for anything except catalyist efficiency testing. Catalytic converters modify many aspects of exhaust gas. For instance, carbon monoxide molecules get an additional atom of oxygen, and that comes from any free O2 present. When the amount of O2 for a given volume of gas is changed (CO becomes CO2 using freely available O2), and then that same volume of gas passes by the downstream O2 sensor, the O2 sensor signal (again, for that same volume of exhaust gas) changes when compared to the upstream sensor's signal. This is how the PCM determines the efficiency of the catalyst.

(note: On any car sold in America after 1994, the catalytic converter and PCM are covered by a governmentally mandated 8 year/80,000 mile warranty. If the catalyst or PCM fail within 8yr/80K miles... you get a replacement for free. This is the primary motivation for the downstram O2 sensors. Uncle Sam said they (the manufacturers) were obligated to implement a reliable way to qualify catalyst efficiency).

cn2800 said:
I do not see how introducing turbulence to the intake air so far upstream of the cylinder could have such a drastic effect as what is claimed on the tornado website.
As far as the amount of increaded volumetric efficiency, that would be dependant on overall intake and exhaust design, among other variables. I tend to agree that on a Northstar, the amount would (or might?) be negligable.

Do not confuse turbulence with cyclonic or rotational force. Turbulance is chaotic, while cyclonic (rotational) force is not. Turbulence is a bad thing, and if you remember the C3 (carburated) GM feedback system... they all had air straighteners to remove turbulence from the incoming air charge.

cn2800 said:
Isn't the idea behind polished and tuned intake runners to minimize the amount of drag/turbulence in the incoming air while maximizing the pressure of the air in the intake runners?
Yes. If you can visualize a tuned runner as opposed to one that isn't tuned... the tuned runner will -allow- rotational forces to propogate further into the runner. A runner that isn't tuned, and has rough surfaces or poorly designed flow characteristics, will offer resistance to non-chaotic rotational flow and actually increase turbulence. (remember, turbulence equals bad... and cyclonic or rotational equals good.)

cn2800 said:
It seems to me that the tornado would simultaneously introduce turbulence and disrupt the natural pressure waves to which the intake was so laborously tuned by GM engineers.
The Tornado (I'm assuming) is either a machined or stamped piece of metal with smooth surfaces. What gets added to the incoming charge is a twist... rotation... cyclonic force... not turbulence.

You should know the difference between rotational forces in fluids as opposed to those in gases. I won't remind you, but think of the spaces between molecules and what is present there... and the effect that would have on the propogation of both turbulence and rotational force.

cn2800 said:
... if such an inexpensive device with no moving parts could have such a dramatic effect on performance and efficency, why would the automobile not come with one? (Maybe that's the real question...)
Aye... there's the rub. :D

The MAF sensor straightens and calms part of the air that it accepts (the part that passes over the hot wire).

Possibly the engineers at GM don't feel the benefits are enough to affect a distinct difference in volumetric efficiency.

:annoyed: A note about GM engineers here. It was deemed un-necessary to solder the connections on low voltage data lines that enter the ABS module. Go ask any Cadillac technician how many ABS harnesses he's had to modify by adding solder to the data lines... and then wonder why the engineers, who probably make upwards of 200K/year, didn't think it was necessary.

:banghead:

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Ellisss
 

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THIS DEVICE HAS BEEN TESTED ON NATIONAL TV(NEWS 4)ON A PROGRAM CALLED ASK LIZ. SHE TEST ALOT OF THINGS THAT COME OUT ON TV. ALL THE CAR MECHS. AND SPECIALIST THAT TESTED THIS DEVICE FOR HER CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IT WAS BULL. IT DIDNT DO ANYTHING ON THE DYNO AND YO COULDNT FEEL ANY DIFF. IN THE RIDE ON THE ROAD TEST. IT DIDNT EVEN GIVE BETTER GAS MILES.SO BUY ONE IF YOU FEEL SO STRONGLY ABOUT IT AND LET ME KNOW WHAT IT DOES FOR YOU.
 

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For twmon.

(snipped all-caps reply)

1. It is considered rude to post in all caps. You don't need to yell, I'm right here. :halo:

2. 'Ask Liz' is archived on the Internet. Using Google's search, I could not locate any of Liz's pages referencing the Tornado device.

3. It is always best to provide a link to an article that you are using to refute someone else's statments. Without such, all I have to go on is your poor grammar. :cookoo:

4. I really don't care what you, or any other person who doesn't have appropriate experience in the field has to say on it. I'm saying that the theory behind the device has been proven. I don't say that I use it, nor do I say that you or anyone else should.

5. What works on one car's design, may not work (or may not work as well) on another. Whether or not this is a factor in the company's propoganda ian't something I'm concerned with.

If you aren't liking my professional opinion on it, then that is perfectly fine.

:)

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Awww, Are we upset?:crying2:

First of all I'm yelling *bleeep* :cookoo:

Not once did I say Liz was in print. I said it was on TV!

And as far as you not caring what people think...

Why are you in a forum?:histeric:



(ShadowLvr) I edited this because it was rude, offensive, and contributed nearly nothing to the discussion. Keep it civil please sir.


*bleep* :histeric:
 

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twmon said:
(more childish yelling snipped)
Yes, you are correct. I'm both deaf and dumb. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. :halo:

As far as 'Ask Liz' goes... each and every one of her articles (print and broadcast) has a corresponding page on the internet. I understand that it may not be within your grasp to find out about these things... so that's why I'm here.

Hey, why are you so concerned with my butt? If you're cruising for an online romance... sorry, I don't swing that way. May I suggest the following?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=homosexual+car+buffs

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Boys now we'll have none of that. No Flame wars in my sections if you please or I'll have to stick both of you in "time out".

twmon,

you will need to turn of the caps as we all feel it to be rude and I'm not deaf, blind, or dumb. Relax a bit and welcome to the forums. :welcome:

ellisss,

This is not an English class and no one will be graded on spelling, least of all me. Most of the members here have trouble with grammar and spelling.

Lets RELAX and try to answer the mans question as best we can.


I have tried the Tornado and can't say I would tell you to rush out and buy one. I tried runs at the strip with and without and the runs with it in were a little better. Does that mean that it works? I can't say for sure, but I don't see it hurting anything either. You will get opinions from people who say its jusk and from those that say it saves fuel and increases power. I'm going to ride the fence on this one and say I tried it and doubt I would spend the bucks again. If you want performance you should look for it in a good exhaust system, K&N filter, or head work and cams if you have the bucks.

Just my two cents worth on this subject.

No we can either resume the discussion or I can close this thread.
 

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Allante North * said:
Lets RELAX and try to answer the mans question as best we can.
I thought that's exactly what I did. :annoyed:

I see that your astute, well-worded answer not only answers his question, but also gives merit to what I said on the device.

Thank you.

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Hey cn2800, I am air & water balancer and your a mech Peng
I guess just because we work with duct static presure and head presure what would we know about air flow.
Sometimes no believes a Peng at all untill they get into trouble with their know design.
This Tornado Fuel Saver only makes money for a the dealer!
I guess if I could sell a 1 mil of these and only make a $1 profit that would be OK in my books.
 

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ellisss, that last thing you said about your butt was funny!!!!!!!

i was just messin around with you. my first post wasn't meant to be smart or rude.

sorry it sounded that way. after your reply, I had to come back with something.

no hard feelings i hope. I couldnt find it on ask liz myself.
 

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Ok, to my shame, I'll admit I tried the thing. I could feel the difference on the first drive. The car had a LOT LESS step. I lost about 10 mph on the onramp with that crap. Mileage went down too. Lost 2 mpg. The tornado is total crap fo a FI motor. They might help on an old carbed motor, but as for their Northstar application, save your money. They suck.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Wow the response to my query is impressive and very appreciated. I personally would deduce this gizmo to not be of a benefit to the Northstar setup and would concur that an older carbureted system would make better use of the altered airflow. This is only my personal take on the feedback. I thank all of you so much for your insights and have decided to pass on this being introduced to my engine compartment. To Elliss & cn2800, your comments and individual experiences and credentials really were spectacular to read.

ShadowLvr400 said:
Ok, to my shame, I'll admit I tried the thing. I could feel the difference on the first drive. The car had a LOT LESS step. I lost about 10 mph on the onramp with that crap. Mileage went down too. Lost 2 mpg. The tornado is total crap fo a FI motor. They might help on an old carbed motor, but as for their Northstar application, save your money. They suck.
 

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Congradulations, Cad Dad. You posed a question, and then read the replies with an open mind... and finally made a decision based on those replies.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that your decision not to use the device in question will in no way be detrimental.

Top engine in the Northstar, from the throttle body to the combustion chamber, is a highly tweaked and excellent performing system. The shape of the intake manifold, the layout of the intake valves, and the design of the combustion chamber are all geared towards performance and efficiency.

Thank you for the kind words, also. :D

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Ellisss
 
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