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Discussion Starter #41
Ultra Slow, I think you're reading a little too much into what JWalker is saying.
I believe he was just saying that the Chevy motors can't realisticly be compaired to the BB Caddy because the motors are different in so many ways. As I'm sure you know, the Chevies like to get their power high in the RPM range and the Cadillac likes to get it down low. Compairing the two is 'apples to oranges' in reality. He also never said that a 10.5:1 compression engine would need race gas. He DID say that a 13:1 engine with that particular cam would do little but require you to buy race fuel.
JWalker is highly respected for his knowledge of performance big block Cadillac motors and what it takes to get one to make lots of power.

As for not getting out of the low 300's in horsepower from a lower compression engine, I'd have to respectfully disagree.
I talked to Al (from MTS) and told him what my engine combination was. I asked him what his power estimates were for this engine. He said that I could expect horsepower in the 430 range and torque just shy of 600. Nice numbers from a motor that should run on 89 octane gas.

My intentions for this truck/motor combo is basically a street cruiser with an occasional run down the quarter mile, no serious racing though. That was the reason I went with the mild cam and compression. I believe it'll be difficult to put all that power to the pavement in street trim anyhow.
:burn:
 

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Re: compression isnt everything

Ultra Slow said:
Sorry to open my big uneducated mouth J walker.... Sounds like you got a handle on everthing by your SCREAMING reply... I am really sorry I said anything and will never offer any of my previous experience to things to are all too familiar with to you as you seem to have taken a major offense to it...
Please forgive me.


But for Lux Hauler........

From what I have seen over my 30 few years of working on cars, and this applied to BOP and Cadillac Big Blocks, you will NEVER get any of them out of the low 300HP range without some darn good compression..... You can trick the heads, you can put headers, you can cam em up... Whatever you want to do... You are just going to be a low 300HP engine.... The actual wheel HP is going to be in the 200's or even less.

Since we cannot use a chevy to compare compression VS HP as so mentioned above.....Take for example the 70 eldo motor...... Does the fact it has a very small cam, pathatice intake, make the 70 eldo motor have to put 93 in it a waste of high octane gas???? I dont think so.... It is 10:1 and it ran pretty darn good in its day.. I used to race one all the time in my GTO.... I wont have to tell you that it would consitantly kick my 360HP tail.... I promise it will outdo a flowed, cammed and intaked 8:1 500.... Even at its overrated 400HP as the 70 HP standards were.

If you are building transportation and dont want the expence of good gas, I can completely understand and go with the lower compression for sure..... At 10:5:1 you WONT need race gas...!

But, if you are trying to race it, which by your many previous posts I am assuming is a good part of your goal, you are doing yourself a big injustice that you are going to wish you did after you put in in your vehicle and learn that its limitations are going to be lower than you probably expected...

If you need a subtle hint.. Just remeber these...... I did not write the book on this......

LT5 Chevy.... 405HP... 11:1
LT4 Chevy.... 330HP... 10.5:1
LS1 Chevy.....345HP... 10.5:1
LS6 Chevy.....425HP... 11:1
Olds W30..... 370HP... 10:5:1
Pon RAIV...... 370HP... 10:5:1
Buick Stg1.... 360HP... 10:5:1
70 Cad 500... 400HP... 10:5:1

120CC head Cad 500..... 190HP 8:1
first off
Cadillacs is what i do for a living and your 30 yrs of automotive whatever is not all centered around cadillac big blocks
your quoting stock numbers
nothing i do is stock or even close to it
ive made 488 horse with a 8.5-1 509 that runs on 90 octane quite well
and gotten 435 horse out of a junk 75 bottom end that had less than 8-1 compression
track times dont lie
while i love my somewhat expensive high compression engines i took the time to make them run without compression and it isnt that tough
you can believe what you want with your 30 yrs of expirience but im telling you that you dont need big compression to go fast
as far as 10.5-1 goes.....looking at the numbers i get from 8-1 thru 9.5-1 engines why bother ?
and thanks for the rundown of the factory horsepower numbers

and for lux hauler
I was just making a suggestion as for what to do and what works.....your engine will run just fine with what was done
just trying to add that little TORQUE INC extras that make the difference
later JW
 

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Discussion Starter #43 (Edited)
JW......I understand you're trying to help and I appreciate it!!
drop me an email when you get a chance.....I had some computer problems and lost your email address. :rolleyes2
[email protected]
 

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Discussion Starter #44
Here's my freshly painted Edelbrock aluminum intake.
I painted it with VHT's Cadillac dark blue engine paint. The engine will be painted to match.
You can't see them very well but there are also ARP 12-point stainless steel bolts there too. Those are the bolts that I'll be using for everything on the outside of the motor.
 

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lux hauler said:
Here's my freshly painted Edelbrock aluminum intake.
I painted it with VHT's Cadillac dark blue engine paint. The engine will be painted to match.
You can't see them very well but there are also ARP 12-point stainless steel bolts there too. Those are the bolts that I'll be using for everything on the outside of the motor.
Awesome. Sorry if I didn't catch this earlier but what cfm carb are you putting on?
 

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Its all good... Not discrediting anyones experience and no hard feelings JW..... You sound like you have been around the block a bit too, and I dont want to flame you or argue with your advice as it was good too.

I have been around this exact senario, exactly like Lux and that is why I chimed in on this topic. I have transplanted several 4100's RWD/FWD with 425's 500's.. Most just stock replacments for others or cars I recofigured and sold. I did build a personal 81 with a 500 that was a 9:1 motor, that uses everything near the same as the one I have put in my current 80 hot-rod. I learned the hard way on this one and that is not what I wanted to do again. I went off advice of others that had done it and it and the 9:1 motor was not a bad running motor at all. It put about 270 to the wheels and was a very strong car.

The current higher compression motor I have now has exactly 130+ more HP than that engine, runs better, does not lope like the 9:1, gets better economy than the previous, exact motor, exact intake, exact exhaust, very similar cam with the same lift/dur... The old was a 110 CL, the current is a 108CL.. The 9:1 just had 120CC heads. The currect engine will break my 80 in the high 12's, and low 13's every time, on a bad day... It has dyno'd last week at 407HP with the timing cranked up to about 38 running 108 octane. I run it more about 32 on the street and it did 384, and thats where it would be if you ran me on the street. The torque was 53? on all timing ranges.... The 9:1 500 in the 81, running the same gear/trans, virtually same motor, just with 9:1, never even got in the 13's as was really not that much of a performance machine compared to the one I have now... It also used more gas, but then again you could put 89 in it........ This is not a fluke.. Its the compression. I have seen it many times since.

In a nutshell, what I was trying to say is that if you are building a motor and even have the desire to race it, dyno it, makes some track runs, or get as much power as you can for as cheap as possible... Go with as much compression as you can get away with.... Since Lux has not completed his motor, it should not be too late... As I said, I have built pretty much the same in the past with a 9:1 engine... I will never build another 9:1 motor again unless it was going in a transplant car and performance is never was even a factor... Id stock cam and intake it and it would be a good mill and would care less about dyno #'s or anything like that.

I did many big block BOP's this way at 9:1 too on my, and customers cars as it was kind of the school of thought in the mid 80's, early 90's... These were performance guys... Some have higher compression motors now and are much happier. Today it just does not make since, because 10:5:1 on most GM big blocks BOP, or chevy and cadillac will run on 93 and offer quite a bit more power than the same 9:1 motor with no adversities, You will just have more power and throttle response. Even the Northstar is 10:1.. Most performance engines today are that too, just as the ones I quoted before.

Remeber that the 120CC head cadillac 500 really was a 190HP motor with 8:1 compression... If you did nothing but raise the compression of the 8:1 motor to 10:5:1, changing nothing else, not even the carb... I can assure you it would be at least 350HP to the flywheel... All the other things you are doing with the MTC cam, edlebrock intake, exhaust, etc are helping just perfect and will help on any compression motor.

Al at MTS is very smart, and I respect his advice. If he claims you are going to get the power you are quoting with 9:1, then thats probably what you will get at the flywheel... The simple rough formula is to knock about 50 off and that is what you will have at the wheel behind a TH400/8.5 corporate... I also am certain that if you asked Al.... he will tell you that you are leaving quite a bit of HP on the table by not making it 10:5:1 while you have the chance.

If it is too late on your motor to raise the compression, then I undersand and it will run pretty good and I dont think you will be dissappointed. It may surpries both of us!

This is all I was trying to say.
 

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Ultra Slow said:
Its all good... Not discrediting anyones experience and no hard feelings JW..... You sound like you have been around the block a bit too, and I dont want to flame you or argue with your advice as it was good too.

I have been around this exact senario, exactly like Lux and that is why I chimed in on this topic. I have transplanted several 4100's RWD/FWD with 425's 500's.. Most just stock replacments for others or cars I recofigured and sold. I did build a personal 81 with a 500 that was a 9:1 motor, that uses everything near the same as the one I have put in my current 80 hot-rod. I learned the hard way on this one and that is not what I wanted to do again. I went off advice of others that had done it and it and the 9:1 motor was not a bad running motor at all. It put about 270 to the wheels and was a very strong car.

The current higher compression motor I have now has exactly 130+ more HP than that engine, runs better, does not lope like the 9:1, gets better economy than the previous, exact motor, exact intake, exact exhaust, very similar cam with the same lift/dur... The old was a 110 CL, the current is a 108CL.. The 9:1 just had 120CC heads. The currect engine will break my 80 in the high 12's, and low 13's every time, on a bad day... It has dyno'd last week at 407HP with the timing cranked up to about 38 running 108 octane. I run it more about 32 on the street and it did 384, and thats where it would be if you ran me on the street. The torque was 53? on all timing ranges.... The 9:1 500 in the 81, running the same gear/trans, virtually same motor, just with 9:1, never even got in the 13's as was really not that much of a performance machine compared to the one I have now... It also used more gas, but then again you could put 89 in it........ This is not a fluke.. Its the compression. I have seen it many times since.

In a nutshell, what I was trying to say is that if you are building a motor and even have the desire to race it, dyno it, makes some track runs, or get as much power as you can for as cheap as possible... Go with as much compression as you can get away with.... Since Lux has not completed his motor, it should not be too late... As I said, I have built pretty much the same in the past with a 9:1 engine... I will never build another 9:1 motor again unless it was going in a transplant car and performance is never was even a factor... Id stock cam and intake it and it would be a good mill and would care less about dyno #'s or anything like that.

I did many big block BOP's this way at 9:1 too on my, and customers cars as it was kind of the school of thought in the mid 80's, early 90's... These were performance guys... Some have higher compression motors now and are much happier. Today it just does not make since, because 10:5:1 on most GM big blocks BOP, or chevy and cadillac will run on 93 and offer quite a bit more power than the same 9:1 motor with no adversities, You will just have more power and throttle response. Even the Northstar is 10:1.. Most performance engines today are that too, just as the ones I quoted before.

Remeber that the 120CC head cadillac 500 really was a 190HP motor with 8:1 compression... If you did nothing but raise the compression of the 8:1 motor to 10:5:1, changing nothing else, not even the carb... I can assure you it would be at least 350HP to the flywheel... All the other things you are doing with the MTC cam, edlebrock intake, exhaust, etc are helping just perfect and will help on any compression motor.

Al at MTS is very smart, and I respect his advice. If he claims you are going to get the power you are quoting with 9:1, then thats probably what you will get at the flywheel... The simple rough formula is to knock about 50 off and that is what you will have at the wheel behind a TH400/8.5 corporate... I also am certain that if you asked Al.... he will tell you that you are leaving quite a bit of HP on the table by not making it 10:5:1 while you have the chance.

If it is too late on your motor to raise the compression, then I undersand and it will run pretty good and I dont think you will be dissappointed. It may surpries both of us!

This is all I was trying to say.
Ok.....no hard feelings
Having said that
one thing i have found especially in the cadillac world is
"you do not have to know anything to have an oppinion"
the engine that lux is doing with the cam it has in it now will not make 420 horse and id bet a paycheck on it.
Al has a tendancy to guess on what things will make and that just comes from basic lack of high performance knowledge.
This was in part one of the reasons i opened my own business was that i could not get what i wanted from anyone in the cadillac business.
on to your camshaft
what you did was basically take a camshaft that has a tendancy to be "peaky" power wise and make it worse.
i havent driven your car or seen your dyno numbers but i can tell you that any of my camshaft/head combinations will make more useable power thruout the rpm range resulting in a much quicker and more INTERESTING car to drive
there is alot more to building power than compression
airflow
port shape
cam design
tuning
are all something that we pay close attention to here and ive made more power than anyone going against the rules that have been set supposedly in stone and what i do goes against everything in the big cadillac book and what Larry K ,Al and everyone else has said works
Im glad your happy with the combination you have and if it meets or exceeds your expectations thats great
im just telling you that there is another way and this isnt anything that i "guess" about its been tested
if youd like to talk about what ive said sometime id be more than game
later...Torque INC
 

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btw

the oppinion comment was not directed to you or anyone on this board
just to the cadillac vendors who sell people products that "just work" as opposed to something that is designed for a particular combination
laterz
 

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Re: btw

Hey JWalker...do you have a website or a catalog I can look thru?
 

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Discussion Starter #50
MMNineInchNails said:
Awesome. Sorry if I didn't catch this earlier but what cfm carb are you putting on?
I'll probably have the Q-Jet, that was on this motor originally, gone through and built for the motor.
 

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catalog

Mad'lac said:
Hey JWalker...do you have a website or a catalog I can look thru?
I am working on a website
I will never have a printed catalog of any kind(might have a PDF version at some point)
Everything i sell is pretty much the same in appearance as what other people have
if you have something in particular you wanna see i can send you a pic .
Ill have pics of my rocker setups and a few other items on the website
I sell all of bulldogs products along with my own line of cams and ported heads/intakes,adapted intakes and so on
i also have some sfi approved flexplates and harmonic dampeners for those of you wanting to go racing
if you need or want something ill be here and if you want ill furnish my phne number
later torque inc
 

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JWalker - please make sure you read our User Agreement regarding commercial solicitation before you link to your website or post items or services for sale. You can find out about becoming a Supporting Vendor or Advertiser.
 

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I do agree that Lux's engine will probably not make 420HP. Thats why I said, maybe it will surpries both of us! I am giving AL the benifit of the doubt if thats his quote, but realise that its probably a pie in the sky figure on that combo. Brings me back to the original thing that the engine will be a mild mid 300HP... Not bad, but if choice are made now, it could definatly be more.

As you have said, there are many ways to get power out of an engine other than compression... Porting, blending, honning, extrude honning, cutting edge designed camshafts, intakes, supper tuning on a wide band for optimal A/F ratios, etc..... All these things are aspects that I am sure that both you and I agree that will help an engine run more powerfull when matched to the overall configuration.... All these things are nice but many of them do reqire a bit of money and I think that is what Lux was trying to avoid.

You would not spend the time and money to do all these things above to an engine above, then make it 8:1..... That would be foolish and a waste of time and money.... It would be the same analogy as loading your car up with 4 people, adding some lead weights, then trying to race your car for its best time.... You are just holding yourself way back with 8:1..... 9:1 is better, but why still hold yourself back as the goal is apparantly to achieve more power for as little money and work as possible. 10:5:1 is about as much as you want to go to be thrifty and still use pump gas.

As far as my car... I do not have the exact cam you are thinking of.. It is a bit more agressive and there is bit more done to my engine, although it is a factory configuration overall.... So its not applicable to the argument, BUT... If I had a stock cam on a stock engine with a stock intake and stock everything.. Lets just say 1976, 8:1 190HP... I did nothing but raise the compression to 10:5:1 and did not touch a darn thing else... The motor would make more power... Period... You are correct by saying that it will bring the peak power curve down a bit, but still its more power and the vehicle would run faster overall.... Now in a perfect world, you would want to add a larger cam,etc that would compensate for the needed airflow/rpm range the compression will take advantage of... BUT again... That takes money and you are on the fringe of making easy power the hard and expensive way...

Compression is cheap power and works well.. The cadillac engine is BIG... THe glory of the cad 500 is you dont have to get over complex with it, you keep it simi-stock... The edelbrock intake is major improvment and gives quite a bit of the needed airflow and RPM range added compression will need, and the cam is next..... BUT if you just put an edlebrock on a 1970 400HP engine... It would wake up major! This is my point...... Easy, cheap and just as the factory built it.... The big valves are great and the rockers for sure, but port work is going to just be minimal over the basics and just add expense to a simple and clean motor. The less aftermarket stuff and custom cutting you keep out of the project, the better off you are as you retain the factory integrity... Best thing for fun... Integrity and reliability..... There are 1000HP cadillac engines that have 10's of thousands in them, but they are competition engines and are not going to last on the street for more than 10 seconds...

But for a few K or less you can take a 500 10:5:1 engine, use the edlebrock intake, throw an average cam in it and you will make 450HP to the flywheel or darn close, and not have to really do anything.. The motor will last and work usually forever, as its is essentially stock with a cam and intake.... This is the combo that Lux would get the most for the least out of.

Sure you can spend some more money to insure that it lasts with better parts, balancing, rockers, a more exact cam grind for compression/vehicle weight/stall/gears/rpm ranges, but the power is not going to be night and day over the basic easy slap together 10:5:1 cam and intake engine.... It would be better, but the bang for the buck is going away now...... This is my like of this engine as I dont want a complicated project, this is simple.. I got complicated projects already.

The point of this entire thing is that I dont understand why anyone would want to intentionally limit the preformance they are going to get out of a motor by building a "high perfromace" engine with lower than the best compression ratio. If you live in a place where only 87 or 89 is avalible.. Thats a valid reson, but thats about it.....

You seem to be big on the cams.....If you are putting a cam in the car that will "trick" the compression ratio by raising the cylinder pressure to achieve a higher type compression ratio, like a higher centerline grind... This is good... Cams like that are perfect for putting in low compression engines and having them act like high compresion engines, to an extent. You can also do this by advancing any cam 4 deg. I have done this with engines I dont want to tear down and try and get as much as you can for the weak hand you are delt.... Both neat tricks to low compression engines, but it only goes so far, and both the above will not achieve the HP compression will do, but bring down the torque curve and the "feel" of being faster, but definatly give that "peaky" performace as you mentioned. These are cheap alternatives to tearing an engine out as this can be done in the car... Not what you want to do when building one though...

Again, all this brings me back to the simple fact that compression is cheap when the engine is being built, compression will make more power over the same lower compression engine if added.... Having the choice of 9:1 or 10:5:1 for the same price.... 9:1 is just having some lead weight in your car while racing it.

Matt


JWalker said:
Ok.....no hard feelings
Having said that
one thing i have found especially in the cadillac world is
"you do not have to know anything to have an oppinion"
the engine that lux is doing with the cam it has in it now will not make 420 horse and id bet a paycheck on it.
Al has a tendancy to guess on what things will make and that just comes from basic lack of high performance knowledge.
This was in part one of the reasons i opened my own business was that i could not get what i wanted from anyone in the cadillac business.
on to your camshaft
what you did was basically take a camshaft that has a tendancy to be "peaky" power wise and make it worse.
i havent driven your car or seen your dyno numbers but i can tell you that any of my camshaft/head combinations will make more useable power thruout the rpm range resulting in a much quicker and more INTERESTING car to drive
there is alot more to building power than compression
airflow
port shape
cam design
tuning
are all something that we pay close attention to here and ive made more power than anyone going against the rules that have been set supposedly in stone and what i do goes against everything in the big cadillac book and what Larry K ,Al and everyone else has said works
Im glad your happy with the combination you have and if it meets or exceeds your expectations thats great
im just telling you that there is another way and this isnt anything that i "guess" about its been tested
if youd like to talk about what ive said sometime id be more than game
later...Torque INC
 

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Thanks for posting the intake pic. I painted my motor the same color. I debated about painting the intake that same color or black but left it alone. If it gets real crappy looking over time I will probably paint it eventually.

Matt I think part of what you are saying and trying to get lux hauler to consider is bang for the buck performance. Milling the heads while they are off to get the compression up to 10.5 or close will provide HP and better manners with his cam. I think Lux Hauler is thinking he is willing to trade a few ponies to be able to buy mid grade instead of high test. Depends on what is most important for your goals. Also in a less than perfect world with regards to fuel quality, tuning ability, parts wear, eventual carbon build up etc. If his motor later starts to ping or has some detonation where it becomes hard on pistons and makes you pull timing. At 10.5-1 you are going to race fuel or back in the motor. If you are running on mid grade you can move up to premuim.

My question is if he goes from 9-1 to 10-1 or 9.5-1 to 10.5-1 and gains 1 full point of compression what power etc do you think he will gain? Steve Brule (sp?) a well published motor builder and dyno operator for Westech in Cali often used by the magazines was quoted once to say. If memory serves me here. That each full point of compression in itself is normally worth about a 4% gain in HP. I take that if Lux Hauler's motor here should make say 400 HP that that would mean an additional 16HP.

PS With regards to AL's I am going to guess rough off the top of his head estimate as to this motors projected ideal HP, is that he probably in his mind was thinking 10ish-1 compression as most similar builds would be built on 10-1.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Well......I FINALLY got the engine back from the machine shop. It's not completely assembled. I just kinda stuck it together for the picture.
The color isn't as bright as it appears in the picture......it's closer to the color of the intake in the picture that I posted earlier.
 

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lux hauler said:
Well......I FINALLY got the engine back from the machine shop. It's not completely assembled. I just kinda stuck it together for the picture.
The color isn't as bright as it appears in the picture......it's closer to the color of the intake in the picture that I posted earlier.


Looks good......JW
 

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Hey Lux Hauler, let me know how you like that Petronix HEI conversion kit. I used the same one on my 425 but don't have the motor in or running yet and I'd like to get some feedback on this item. I did the 425 with 11:1 Ross pistons and the MT 15 cam. Had to have a BIG dome on the pistons because the 425 uses 96cc combustion chambers and they measured about 116 after un-shrouding the valves.Thanks...
 

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Angela Desmond said:
Hey Lux Hauler, let me know how you like that Petronix HEI conversion kit. I used the same one on my 425 but don't have the motor in or running yet and I'd like to get some feedback on this item. I did the 425 with 11:1 Ross pistons and the MT 15 cam. Had to have a BIG dome on the pistons because the 425 uses 96cc combustion chambers and they measured about 116 after un-shrouding the valves.Thanks...
you have overestimated your horsepower output by a little better than 100
just letting you know
mill the domes off ,mill .025 off the heads and get a single pattern cam
might get you closer to 400
but thats just MO
 

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Discussion Starter #60
Angela Desmond said:
Hey Lux Hauler, let me know how you like that Petronix HEI conversion kit. I used the same one on my 425 but don't have the motor in or running yet and I'd like to get some feedback on this item. I did the 425 with 11:1 Ross pistons and the MT 15 cam. Had to have a BIG dome on the pistons because the 425 uses 96cc combustion chambers and they measured about 116 after un-shrouding the valves.Thanks...
Sorry Angela.....didn't see your post.
I haven't run the motor yet so I don't have any info for you. It probably won't be run for at least a month or so. I still have to get the tranny rebuilt and fab-up the whole install.....but when I do get it all set up, I'll post what the results are.
:burn:
 
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