[JCBCTS]

Well, more than 5 months (and 8000 miles) after my P0008 code was 1st thrown, I decided to finally try and tackle the timing chains. (see previous thread- https://www.cadillacforums.com/threads/is-there-any-life-after-the-p0008-code.1075594/ )

My 2008 non-DI had 136k miles on the clock and still did not show any drivability, noise or other symptoms other than the CEL and P0008 code. Unfortunately when I put her all back together – something had gone wrong. The car has a subtle shake at Idle and is throwing P00018 and P00019 codes, along with random misfires on the 3 bank 2 cylinders. Driving and revving the car past say 1100 RPM, you would not know there is an issue. Seems to drive normally with normal power and fuel economy. When stopping and idling, you can feel the subtle vibration, but does not seem like there is any threat it will stall.

Obviously I screwed up something in the timing with both sensors reporting variation and the rough idle, but looking back it still seems like it was right to me. Attached are pics showing the marks just before I closed her back up. All the guides and tensioners were installed and tight/activated. Link below are pics showing the timing marks. The pics were taken after timing stage 2.

Crank - https://share.icloud.com/photos/0eKMflZY9m5UKW6Q-LgaiWrMA
Bank 1 - https://share.icloud.com/photos/0azKSSOuDy4_39xeMVC-i4_Fw
Bank 2 - https://share.icloud.com/photos/0-UTUaWzd9uyHOlxCWb8CmPwQ

This Thread has a good pic of shop manual illustrating timing mark positions after installing both chains, finishing in the stage 2 position as I did;
https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454983

One problem I ran into in the tear down was that the timing chain slipped teeth on the crank sprocket when I was attempting to remove the crank bolt. I had to reset everything in once all the chains were removed. I realize this issue risked damage due to being an interference engine. I would expect that if a valve was bent, I would be seeing different codes/issues then P00018 and P00019.

Anyway, I would consider tearing her all down again, but I don’t want to do that unless I am sure I know how to correct/adjust. Anyone see any issues with the alignment from my pics? I used the Cloyes timing kit with new chains, crank sprocket, idler sprockets, tensioners and guides. The new chains were very tight so I don’t think there was any chance of slippage from time I took the pics I included until now.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!

 

[TheFlash]

What brand of parts did you use?

 

[JCBCTS]

CLOYES 90753S

 

[TheFlash]

good, did you use their video?

see at;

 

[JCBCTS]

Yes, I did and I would swear the marks in my pics are near IDENTICAL to what you see at time 8:10 of the video just as the dude is about to pull the last tensioner pin. I watched this and a few other videos showing tear down and install. All seem to end up where I did as far as marks, camshaft and crank positions. Like I said, I don't mind admitting I screwed up...just can't identify where and what I would change if I opened it all back up again.

 

[HurstGN]

Wow, timing chains done in less than 10 minutes. Looks like a nice lunchtime DIY project. NOT!
Very informative video.

 

[JCBCTS]

Hurst you got that right! Even if mine turned out right I would say this job is NOT for the faint of heart! I was regretting starting it several times into the tear down! Then you get in there and the marks were not nearly as distinct as you see in the video! Even the Cloyes chain used black links on a grayish chain, along with a gold link. Neither one of these colors exactly pops in my garage lighting! And the marks on the sprockets are quite subtle as well (no bright red dots like shown in the video!).

 

[HurstGN]

I did locate your post on the phone to see the pics. Can't see them on my pooter at work, internet policy. Looking as close as I could, I think your marks all lined up that I saw. Did you take pics of the marked chain looking through the holes in the lower sprockets? That's the only place I would think something may be off based on what I saw in the video and the pics.

 

[TheFlash]

well I think you need to take it apart because P0019 is the OBD-II generic code indicating that the crankshaft and Variable Valve Timing (VVT) position sensor B for bank 2 exhaust camshaft does not correspond signals with each other.

When I have done these I mark the dots on the gears with a dab of different color paint to enhance visual.
and after you installed all the chains and released the tensioner pins, rotate the engine and be sure ALL the trimming marks aligned AND THEN ROTATE ENGINE AND CHECK IT ONE MORE TIME.

 

[JCBCTS]

Easy for you to say Flash (Kidding)! It is a LOT of work for me not to have a plan when I get back in there. She is driving ok after about 75 miles - that should equate to about 150k engine revolutions or so. I'll hold out a while and see if any other ideas come to light. If not, I will probably bite the bullet and take it to a professional so as not to just blow another several days just to end up in the same place. Flash don't take that wrong...Really appreciate you reading the posts and offering advice!!

 

[Joseph Upson]

I'm not scared of tough jobs on cars, but this was one I did not want to screw up because of the potential extensive effort that would follow an already laborious process. I took my camera and stuck it in front of the lower timing mark points for a good square picture, because an angle look-see could trick the eyes into thinking everything was in order.

With two codes for the same bank, it's a pretty strong case for a mismatched alignment. If you rotated the engine counter clockwise, perhaps that could have caused a tooth jump. I know I heard a pretty harsh sound when I attempted to do that and stopped short of fully returning the crank back to the install position after rotating the crank to check valve clearance. I know I checked mine several times before buttoning it up and was still paranoid about it.

You've been in it already, you should consider diving back in for what will be a faster finish this time. Make sure you count links if you do and physically push the tensioners out by hand after the pins are released to make sure they are fully extended. You should also perform what is called a clear flood crank (which I forgot to do), that will allow the engine to spin over without running, giving time for the oil system to pressurize and prevent the motor from sounding like it's about to come a part from all the rattling the new components will make from having no oil at startup.

Make sure you plugged the cam sensors in good and tight and even consider switching them from one side to the other to see if the codes change. Not sure it's possible, but make sure you didn't cross them up also.

 

[JCBCTS]

Thanks Joseph. I just took a dropper and oiled up the top of the chains and let it work down the chain a bit to the new components. The initial start was very quiet with no rattles at all. Initially I had failed to plug in a vacuum hose so it ran very rough. I was relieved to see (and hear) that was the problem. Unfortunately after plugging in the hose it still ran slightly rough. I thought maybe the intake was leaking or still had a slight vacuum leak elsewhere until the CEL came on and I read the dreaded codes!!

Seems at this point I could just remove the valve covers to verify the timing marks and use the crank key as the reference point for the crank pulley position. I seem to recall marks on the harmonic balancer also but I did not verify if the mark position was accurate to either 1st stage or 2nd stage timing positions.

 

[JCBCTS]

OK took off my intake and valve covers in order to re-check my timing. I turned the crank until the timing marks/black timing links lined up on all 4 cam sprockets. I then adjusted the crank until the cam tools aligned on the back of the camshafts. As shown in the pictures, the angled #2 camshaft tool (numbered as shown in the link) is on the passenger side and the flat tool #3 tool is installed on the driver’s side. The #3 cylinder with the screw driver in it is at TDC. The 2nd picture shows the Crank position via the marks on the harmonic balancer. The balancer is keyed so it can only be on in one position. I believe the marks are factory as I have seen them in some other pictures online. The position shown in the pictures would be phase 1 timing position I believe.

Given the camshaft hold tools installed, the cylinder piston position and the harmonic balancer /crank marks - position, can anyone tell me if this timing is definitively correct or not? Seems like all the variables would be covered right?

Camshafts with Cam Tools Installed
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Nvp_AwpYE_KiNVN_A8JKdqyQ
Crankshaft Positon Marks on Harmonic Balancer
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0CSQlI9h6WsKZUiJ8i_Jsn7pQ
Camshaft Hold Tools
https://www.freedomracing.com/camshaft-retaining-tool-set-en-48383-en-46105-alt.html

 

[Joseph Upson]

JCBCTS I think you should go ahead and open the cover and reset it. That will give you the opportunity to take square pictures this time to make sure without question the timing is correct. I never paid the marks on the balancer any attention when I did mine with a healthy dose of paranoia. I took close up pictures of every timing mark to make sure I wasn't thrown off by looking at an angle, I had to since I used makeshift camshaft holders.

That's the safest way to go about it and follow the instruction guide as close as possible then check and recheck against the marks and comparison bank to bank for correct position. I would even remove the chains and stack them to make sure there is no factory fault as well. Since you had misfires on all cylinders of the affected bank, it's strongly suggestive of a correlation issue.

Make sure you press the tensioners outward by hand on reinstall to make sure they are fully extended and make sure no seals are mixed up.

Also, I forgot to ask if you installed, or checked to see if you have the washer update for the camshaft actuators? Some engines had timing faults as a result of factory defects in craftsmanship that resulted in camshaft walk (telescoping) and subsequent timing errors.

I installed them on mine. There are two thicknesses depending on whether you have the 5 bolt or 4 bolt actuators.

 

[Joseph Upson]

This link may be helpful from a forum member's experience;

05 CTS 3.6L timing chain job, tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

Subject: 05 CTS with the 3.6L with Approximately 70-75,000 Miles. Complaint: Timing Chain Rattle, 2+ quarts oil consumption between 3,000 mile intervals using 10w30 syn (viscosity increased due to chain noise), Phantom Coolant Leak The preliminary parts needs were met by RockAuto.com...

www.cadillacforums.com

 

[JCBCTS]

No, I did not touch the actuators or the position sensors. In fact, I left them in the timing cover throughout the job. Could I have damaged them, causing any of these issues? Everything seems to point to the timing being right. I am wondering if the cam phasers are causing the issues? Again, it was a beast tearing it all down so just trying to get a definitive ruling on timing. If it is proven wrong, and I knew what to do differently, I would have no problem re-efforting. Does anyone have documentation on what the harmonic balancer marks mean?

 

[JCBCTS]

...by everything, I mean the physical marks and positions. Obviously the error lights are a red flag that something is wrong and points to the timing. Again though, does anyone have documentation on the harmonic balancer marks? I think that would be helpful to anyone questioning if their engine is in time. It is MUCH easier to get the valve covers off than to pull the timing cover.

 

[tinman]

Hang in there, my good man. We're bleeding with you. Keep going, Joseph is a big help.

 

[JCBCTS]

Thanks...good news is she runs so I can drive it til I figure it out.

 

[Joseph Upson]

...by everything, I mean the physical marks and positions. Obviously the error lights are a red flag that something is wrong and points to the timing. Again though, does anyone have documentation on the harmonic balancer marks? I think that would be helpful to anyone questioning if their engine is in time. It is MUCH easier to get the valve covers off than to pull the timing cover.

I doubt the balancer marks mean much outside of the factory environment during assembly. Since the computer controls timing and it was not intended to be adjustable by the consumer like the older motors with distributors, no reference marks were included on the timing cover which are an absolute must for the balancer markings to have useful meaning for us. I checked my shop manual and I can't even find the word "harmonic balancer" in it to begin the search for a meaning of the markings.

I do recall suggesting that you swap the camshaft sensors from the left side to the right to see if the codes are affected, did you do this? Make sure the plugs were not crossed if that's possible.

Since the valve covers are off, you may want to remove the camshaft holders one side at a time and torque on each camshaft a little with a wrench (there's a spot for this) to make sure they all are locked in place to the actuators. See if you can move the camshafts backwards and forward, not sure how possible this is by hand.

According to my shop manual the codes set when either the intake or exhaust cam is off by 10 deg, I believe relative to the crank, or a sensor is malfunctioning.

It is possible for the marked links to be in place on the actuators, but off by a notch on the idler gear below, so don't be overly convinced by how things look up top.

I have seen pictures of timing chain repairs where the timing cover was removed with the sensors and solenoids left in place. The sensors are not much of a concern for damage, but the solenoids on the other hand because of their length would be. I removed mine for that reason before pulling the timing cover to make sure they were not leveraged in anyway on removal (weight of cover hanging on them for example).

I strongly suggest you remove the cam sensors and the solenoids, clean them carefully and reinstall them on the opposite sides of the motor. Mark them first so that you know exactly where they came from in case you decide to return them to their original position. If the codes change, or disappear, you have the source of the trouble.

Here's a link on the thrust washers, right page;

Engine Professional magazine