Cadillac Owners Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
The Mighty Kael, 2004 Black CTS, Every Option
Joined
·
2,432 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
does anyone offhand know the inlet bore of the stock throttle body for the 3.6L?
I am thinking the throttle body from the 4.6L should fit or an adapter could be made to open up the intake and get us some extra power.


its a pitty that we have so little room in front of the throttle body.
 

·
Registered
2005 CTS 3.6L, 2006 350Z, Ducati 996s
Joined
·
2,449 Posts
N* throttle bodies have been used for a few years on the 3800 engine, along with the LS1 throttle bodies. I don't know the 3.6L. Shouldn't be hard to find out.
The N* is 77 mm right? No? I think the LS1 is 92.

I was about to put the N8 throttle body on my Regal before I sold it.

I wonder how this will mess with our computers?
 

·
Premium Member
2006 STS V8 AWD, '95 Ford Ranger
Joined
·
29,002 Posts
Forget it. Not only does the 3.6 V6 have a tuned intake; it changes tuning on the fly by switching butterfly valves like a musical instrument. Any change in diameter is going to screw this tuning up.
 

·
Registered
The Mighty Kael, 2004 Black CTS, Every Option
Joined
·
2,432 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
aznpride.... you are on clubgp arent you :)


dkozloski:
I am not sure about this, the volant air intake inmproves airflow and it does not seem to bother the computer too much, as long as the sensor signals match up i would think this would be fine, it would simply read that the intakeis getting more air, like if its a cold day and the air charge is more dense.
 

·
Premium Member
2006 STS V8 AWD, '95 Ford Ranger
Joined
·
29,002 Posts
Any change in diameter of the tuned intake between the throttle butterfly and the intake port changes how the intake flows across the whole RPM range of the engine. Think about how pounding dents into your saxaphone changes the sound. This is not a simple intake system but a very highly sophisticated innovation. The non-mechanical, non-scientifically educated tinkerer has no business monkeying with this technology. You can do what you want ahead of the throttle butterfly without doing a lot of harm but any discontinuity downstream is going to look like a blockage over part of the RPM range. The idea of an intake system that would have tuning that would change over the operating range of the engine was a dream of the engineers for more than 75 years but Cadillac managed to do it. The idea that someone could sit on the end stool at the local saloon and improve on this by adapting some parts out of the junkyard shows an abysmal lack of understanding of air flow dynamics.
 

·
Registered
The Mighty Kael, 2004 Black CTS, Every Option
Joined
·
2,432 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
it was just a hypothetical discussion, seeing what is and what is not possible.
No need to get hostile and make assumptions about the people asking questions. and questions are how we learn things.
but of course I would want to do some research before even imagining making adjustments to any of the dynamics of the laminar and turbulent flow into and through the throttlebody.

-KL
 

·
Premium Member
2006 STS V8 AWD, '95 Ford Ranger
Joined
·
29,002 Posts
The tuning of an intake requires the smooth flow of pressure waves up and down the intake tubes. The idea is to have the pressure wave present at the intake valve just as the valve opens. This pressue wave forces a larger charge into the cylinder much like a supercharger. The wave is reflected back toward the throttle butterfly where it is reflected back toward the intake valve again just like the waves in an organ pipe, hopefully to arrive just as the valve opens again. This has a very large effect on performance. The problem comes in that normally the intake is only tuned for one RPM or a narrow band. Any steps or abrupt changes in diameter such as a larger throttle body will reduce the effects of tuning and dampen the waves just like denting your sax. Cadillac went one step farther and made an intake system that by the use of folded pipes and computer controlled butterfly valves changes tuning on the fly just like a clarinet or a trombone. This gives a much boader power band to what would otherwise be a very peaky and high strung engine. You might be able to develope a larger throttle body but I wouldn't be surprised if the engine fell on it's ass.
 

·
Premium Member
2006 STS V8 AWD, '95 Ford Ranger
Joined
·
29,002 Posts
Exhaust tunes the same way except you want the rarefaction rather than the condensation present when the exhaust valve opens. I haven't seen anybody succeed in mechanically varying exhaust tuning. Some of the crossover systems used to use the pulse from one side to conrol the wave present at the other side of the engine as well as produce some of the most beautiful sounds you ever heard.
 

·
Registered
Black the Darkside
Joined
·
22,415 Posts
Kael said:
it was just a hypothetical discussion, seeing what is and what is not possible.
No need to get hostile and make assumptions about the people asking questions. and questions are how we learn things.
but of course I would want to do some research before even imagining making adjustments to any of the dynamics of the laminar and turbulent flow into and through the throttlebody.

-KL
Kael,
Koz isn't being hostile. It's his personality and That's the way he talks. The man is very smart and worth listening too.
 

·
Registered
The Mighty Kael, 2004 Black CTS, Every Option
Joined
·
2,432 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
ah okay. -=personality filter=-
wow, thats a lot of useful information
has anybody seen this thread?
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60123

see where SD marine is talking about porting and polishing the throttle body. i would think that this would have the same effect and problems that koz (superior knowledge acknowledged) illiterated here.

also, robertcts, you say CMS is planning on doing the same thing. shouldnt you tell him the problems before he wastes money on this project.

was taking a look at my throttle body last night
really doesnt seem to be much room for improvement. damn


and a shot of a cut away of the variable plenum
 

·
Registered
Black the Darkside
Joined
·
22,415 Posts
Kael said:
ah okay. -=personality filter=-
wow, thats a lot of useful information
has anybody seen this thread?
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60123

see where SD marine is talking about porting and polishing the throttle body. i would think that this would have the same effect and problems that koz (superior knowledge acknowledged) illiterated here.

also, robertcts, you say CMS is planning on doing the same thing. shouldnt you tell him the problems before he wastes money on this project.

was taking a look at my throttle body last night
really doesnt seem to be much room for improvement. damn
Pete has already done the stage II mods to the 3.6VVT. and now offers it to customers. Odysseus already has plans to drop his 3.2 off at CMS for the work.
 

·
Premium Member
2006 STS V8 AWD, '95 Ford Ranger
Joined
·
29,002 Posts
One of the real problems with a very highly developed engine is that there aren't many cherries to be picked. Back when the small block Chevy came out in '55 just about anything you did would make a noticable difference. That was the beauty of the beast. Cadillac has done a good job of developement and hasn't left much on the table. The first few horsepower to be gained come cheap but after that they get very expensive indeed and you may do more harm than good. Ford did it to themselves more than once. In the case of the Boss 302 the developers(hot rodders) wound up reducing the diameter of the intake passages with Devcon plastic to increase the velocity of the intake charge because the low end had disappeared altogether. Bigger is not always better. I'm not saying that is what will happen here but you do have to treat the intake as an entire system and every mod has to be evaluated to make sure you haven't shot yourself in the foot and gone backwards. You may increase the peak only to find that the low end or mid-range has gone away.
 

·
Registered
The Mighty Kael, 2004 Black CTS, Every Option
Joined
·
2,432 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
the opening of the throttle body on the 3.6L perfectly matches the runner for the intake plenum, no real room for porting. and the entire damned thing is baby ass smooth, no restrictions or even bumps in the way. a polish i doubt would do much.

i see that the cms package is for the 3.2, i dont have info on that or if it would even do anything


i think for gains we would have to go for forced induction, turbo or supercharger.
 

·
Registered
Black the Darkside
Joined
·
22,415 Posts
Kael said:
the opening of the throttle body on the 3.6L perfectly matches the runner for the intake plenum, no real room for porting. and the entire damned thing is baby ass smooth, no restrictions or even bumps in the way. a polish i doubt would do much.
i see that the cms package is for the 3.2, i dont have info on that or if it would even do anything
i think for gains we would have to go for forced induction, turbo or supercharger.
Ody is an aerospace engineer. I don't think he would turn his 3.2 over to CMS without understanding what the process was.

I've heard from reliable sources that the 3.6 is good for 370HP normally asperated. Problem is our differentials will not take kindly to it.
 

·
Registered
The Mighty Kael, 2004 Black CTS, Every Option
Joined
·
2,432 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
383hp on stock internals

"or so i have been told"
but we all know that varies.
 

·
Registered
CTS
Joined
·
1,485 Posts
Kael said:
the opening of the throttle body on the 3.6L perfectly matches the runner for the intake plenum, no real room for porting. and the entire damned thing is baby ass smooth, no restrictions or even bumps in the way. a polish i doubt would do much.

i see that the cms package is for the 3.2, i dont have info on that or if it would even do anything


i think for gains we would have to go for forced induction, turbo or supercharger.
there really isn't much you could do except put a mirror polish on it or something. There isn't much there to machine.
 

·
Registered
The Mighty Kael, 2004 Black CTS, Every Option
Joined
·
2,432 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
I think the Koz would be the first to pipe up that mirror polishing is not always the best option.
its sort of technical but i think i an put it into lamens terms.

okay, golfballs, notice how they have dimples? well scottsmen hundreds of years ago discovered that the dented and scratched balls would fly farther for some reason. the dimples create a local turbulence that helps the ball slide better through the rest of the air. the slight imperfections or patina finish actually help to control the air flow instead of letting it go all over the place like on a mirror polished surface.

i dont know if this is applicable to our throttle bodies and intake plenum.

-KL
 

·
Registered
CTS
Joined
·
1,485 Posts
I know a certain amount of turbulance and distrubance is a good thing? Right? That's what the engineer types spend hours trying to figure out.

All I want is to start the car and squash the go pedal with my heavy foot.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top