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94 Fleetwood Brougham
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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, so I got off on some warped tangent looking at Aussie sites.

What do you think about using this car, the Holden Statesman V8 (http://autoweb.drive.com.au/cms/A_2309/article.html) as a basis platform for the new Fleetwood?

The Caprice never died overseas. Holden started making them, as there is still sufficient worldwide demand for it. Some dimwit at GM felt the US didn't need them anymore. I think a lot of marketing people at GM need to find work elsewhere with decisions like that.

But take the Statesman V8, use the AWD drivetrain from the Holden Crewman Cross 8 (aka, El Camino) and stretch the Statesman, give it a Cadillac roofline, amenities and such, use the new 6.2L engine slated for the Escalade for this year, and have a truly worldclass sedan that can take on the world in a worthy manner, taking its rightful place at the top of the Cadillac lineup... And then go take on the rest of Detroit's sports cars for power and acceleration!! Lest we forget having a real V4P package again, allowing a killer sedan towing machine!

Sorry, I hate to say it, but a Deville doesn't belong as the king of Cadillac's large sedans. Just not right.

Now GM can't whine and cry that they will have to do all this work to climatize the car for the rough and cold that the US has that Australia doesn't have. They GTO has been out for a few years now and this has been figured out and done. So, give GM 9-12 months tops and the Fleetwood could return.
 

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04 ESV Platinum, 96 Eldorado Coachbuilder LTD, 96 FWB
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I dont like it. Its not "cadillac like"
And no, Deville shouldnt be a "large sedan"

This is a large sedan Cadillac
 

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94 Fleetwood Brougham
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Discussion Starter #3
Exactly!

It would take some restyling, the rear end isn't so bad, but needs tall vertical tail lights (the new DTS lights?) and a longer trunk, and a longer wheelbase with world class interior room. With the L92 at the heart of it (no N* guys, we need serious torque), costs would be decent for the drivetrain, offering AWD for about the same $ as the N* drivetrain w/4T80E.

In my not always so humble opinion!

And please NO to that new Cadillac grill! YUK! Gotta be a classic FW grill. Longer nose too. Make it look sharp!
 

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1970 Sedan deVille hardtop
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needs a complete body redesign. Cadillacs are supposed to have corners. They *should* have fins too. The Statesman needs a completley different roofline, trunkline, rear quarters - that is a complete redesign to the unibody and crash structure. Could take some time.
I agree, the fleetwood would be right to bring back, but the Fleetwood has always been a stretched DeVille, not a whole different vehicle.

If they do bring it back, please don't compare this to the GTO return. Sorry, but that was a huge anticlimax. Great engine, nice IRS, body lacking - no style. Didn't it have struts (gag) up front though? It also looks too much like the last Mustang, or the Volvo C70.
 

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'93 Fleetwood Brougham...Dad's
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I can't stand the pathetic Deville, and never have--it's more Buick-grade than anything else in the lineup.

I'd LOVE to see a new, cutting edge Fleetwood replacement flagship that was not only as highly detailed, refined, and stylish as some of the best big luxo sedans out there--but was unique in the fact that, still, it could retain some kind of an upgraded towing package like mentioned here. Kind of in the same way it would be if MB offered a full-size S-class with a higher performance, "tough" tow package:yup:

It trully would be awesome to see another, worthy of carrying on the Fleetwood name--but still had the posh, the quality, the refinement, and the performance to battle the best of them. Last I remember hearing, Caddy is still working on their idea for a super high end, $100k+ super luxury competitor to the Bentley's and Roll's of the world, but you never know, given the current rough times at GM. That type of car would probably be something above the kind of new Fleetwood I think we'd all like to see, but still an amazing car if ever produced.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I am not a car designer, so I don't know all the "corners" (pun intended) in it, but I have always felt that sheetmetal redesigns are pathetically easy. Even roofline shouldn't be a big deal. It is the unibody underneath (being we are likely stuck with it, I would rather have the quiet isolation of body on frame) that is already designed and proven (hopefully that can easily pass US crash testing). Like a Eldo to a Riviera to a Toronado. Or a Seville to an Aurora. Or a LeSebre to a Bonneville. Just sheetmetal changes. They all have unique rooflines, which should be easy.

So we have the Statesman, a larger car than the average, based on RWD, easily made AWD (which in this day in age, should be standard on a high class luxo cruiser). By all means fins! Seems the 99 Devilles had the last of "fins" if you could call them that. They are small and sutle, that follow up to the tops of the tall taillights (something I really do like on the 89-up Cadillacs, FWD) Gotta stretch it to at least 18 feet, no less. Need worthy leg room in back. And a trunk the mob would be proud of....

BluEyes said:
needs a complete body redesign. Cadillacs are supposed to have corners. They *should* have fins too. The Statesman needs a completley different roofline, trunkline, rear quarters - that is a complete redesign to the unibody and crash structure. Could take some time.
I agree, the fleetwood would be right to bring back, but the Fleetwood has always been a stretched DeVille, not a whole different vehicle.

If they do bring it back, please don't compare this to the GTO return. Sorry, but that was a huge anticlimax. Great engine, nice IRS, body lacking - no style. Didn't it have struts (gag) up front though? It also looks too much like the last Mustang, or the Volvo C70.
 

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94 FWB, 93 SDV, 94 FWB (sold), 90 Brougham (sold)
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The ULS will be built, I hope more than anything for the future of Cadillac. The DeVille cannot be the largest Cadillac anymore than a 5-series Beemer being the largest. The ULS has to be the most expensive, most luxurious, and most powerful Cadillac ever built. If the XV-12 Northstar is powering it, Cadillac will once again have a world class vehicle. If they twin turbo it and call it a ULS-V, AMG will have a little competition. Certain Cadillacs are remembered because they were special, the V-16s from the 30's, the '59 Eldo, '75 Seville, '04 CTS-V, and the future ULS will hopefully be one of them. If Cadillac doesn't build a true flagship car, they're a leaderless subsidiary.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
This concept of the Statesman based Fleetwood AWD would most definately dethrone the S500 4Motion and the BMW 740iL.

What is the ULS? The Sixteen?
 

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1989 Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance|2018 Chevy Colorado Z71
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I dunno if I wanna see the Fleetwood back..... I'm afraid of what would happen to the great Cadillac flagship car..... It'd be nice to see the Fleetwood back but it wouldn't fit in today's automotive world. A Fleetwood needs a long nose, long trunk, skirts, etc. Caddy needs some big RWD car for the commercial area. Ever seen a DeVille stretch limo? Don't look right. FWD and a Northstar don't work well in that area. If done well and done right the Fleetwood could come back. However it wouldn't be the "Fleetwood" it'd be called something else or even the FTS or FLS or something entirely different. Today's Cadillac is not Fleetwood friendly and that's the real problem.
 

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81 Coupe DeVille 4/6/8
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With a redesign I can see it. I would love to see it. That car would need a lot of work, but worth it. Alot more work than GTO was.
 

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"Today's Cadillac is not Fleetwood friendly and that's the real problem."

Interesting thought. I think you're probably right too. Yes, there's a GM chassis in production that could be tweaked to make a new Fleetwood but, after reading the review of it, I don't think I'd want it to be the basis of a Cadillac Uber-car. The press is tough on any car that's simply something loosely based on an existing car. And enthusiasts aren't always any better. Prime example would be the GTO. I agree there's a need, and maybe even a market for a new Fleetwood but it would certainly be a rather small market. So why would GM/Cadillac bother to pour such ultimate design and technical goodies on a car that will most likely sell in very small numbers and be scrutinized to death by the world? Does GM/Cadillac have what it takes to produce the car as it will certainly be needed to be done? It can't afford anything less than a home run right out of the box, and GM/Cadillac hasn't shown that it is capable of such a feet IMO.
If you look at all the cars that would be it's competition, the MB S-class, the BMW 7-series, etc, these cars sit rather quietly atop their respective marques lineup. They are certainly not as popular, or as revered as their lesser siblings. Everyone wants to know about the BMW 3 & 5 series cars but you never hear much about the 7-series. Everyone talks about the C & E class cars but seldom do you read much about the S-class. I think the OEMs realize they need "something" big and expensive at the top of their lineup but it's not their bread and butter car so there's not much emphasis placed on it. Taking this in mind, try to build a good business case for a new Fleetwood. Especially one that would be built as the "ultimate" car you suggest it should be. I think this is why GM/Cadillac is dragging their feet when it comes to building anything to slot in above the Deville.
 

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Katshot said:
"Today's Cadillac is not Fleetwood friendly and that's the real problem."
Interesting thought. I think you're probably right too. Yes, there's a GM chassis in production that could be tweaked to make a new Fleetwood but, after reading the review of it, I don't think I'd want it to be the basis of a Cadillac Uber-car. The press is tough on any car that's simply something loosely based on an existing car. And enthusiasts aren't always any better. Prime example would be the GTO. I agree there's a need, and maybe even a market for a new Fleetwood but it would certainly be a rather small market. So why would GM/Cadillac bother to pour such ultimate design and technical goodies on a car that will most likely sell in very small numbers and be scrutinized to death by the world? Does GM/Cadillac have what it takes to produce the car as it will certainly be needed to be done? It can't afford anything less than a home run right out of the box, and GM/Cadillac hasn't shown that it is capable of such a feet IMO.
If you look at all the cars that would be it's competition, the MB S-class, the BMW 7-series, etc, these cars sit rather quietly atop their respective marques lineup. They are certainly not as popular, or as revered as their lesser siblings. Everyone wants to know about the BMW 3 & 5 series cars but you never hear much about the 7-series. Everyone talks about the C & E class cars but seldom do you read much about the S-class. I think the OEMs realize they need "something" big and expensive at the top of their lineup but it's not their bread and butter car so there's not much emphasis placed on it. Taking this in mind, try to build a good business case for a new Fleetwood. Especially one that would be built as the "ultimate" car you suggest it should be. I think this is why GM/Cadillac is dragging their feet when it comes to building anything to slot in above the Deville.
Yep. Pretty much what I was going for with that sentence.... Still, I agree it'd be cool to see the beast come back, but it's just not the right time.... Maybe sometime in the near future with the way cars are starting to come out now like the return of the V8 Impala. It's well on it's way back to possible.....
 

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I still believe they'll build the ULS (Ultra-Luxury Sedan). Even if the only proof I have is a little snipit from Autoweek a few months ago, I'm still going to hope for it.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29347

This is an old thread and the think to Autoweek doesn't work anymore, but the thread discussion says enough. If you just search google for it, you can find various different things.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yeah, but the V8 Impala, although it might be a fun car to drive, is still a pathetic W body that looks like a fat Cobalt 4dr. Great, they stuck in a V8. That is it.

The Impala needs to return as RWD. FWD is just plain wrong.

Kat brings up some good points. Cadillac and Lincoln both lack a true car to drag the S and 7 series buyers over to GM or Ford.

I know, GM should come up with a new platform, but that is megabucks too. Maybe that is the way to go, the Statesman is a dated platform too. Start a world class RWD "D" body platform, Based around the LS V8's, designed by Cadillac, and variants of it (a real "B" and "C" body again) for Pontiac, Buick, Holden and even Chevy. Base it around AWD as an option.

This platform could signal the return of GM to a serious 4dr sedan that does it all right. Listen to what the critics whine about. Fix it. Like the LS V8, do it right, no comprimises. Those engineering $$ will go a long way, 8-12 years if they do it right. Yes, the FW would end up costing $50K+ to help recoup some of the design costs, but honestly, it should be a truely killer car.

Do I have too much faith in GM?

ULS, that name would be a foolish name to send into production. ULS, Universal License System. (fcc.gov) No car name should ever start with a U. FTS, yes, I can see that. 12? No, not unless it has something to really back it up. 16? Maybe, if there is a 16. Aim at Maybach. But sales are international, and low. And uber high prices and profit margins.

I feel that if GM could get a "ULS" car out there and have trims from $60K to $90K, they could make it work. It would need a lot of marketing. The market of people who can afford these luxo cruisers is not that large. (I don't know about you, I am sick of seeing so many people get into soooooo much debt for houses and cars. The house prices are so inflated it isn't funny. People just see the short term and are willing to live within inches of being in bankruptcy. Even cars. It isn't how much the car costs, it is how much it is monthly. And people are starting to take notice with the fuel prices. I was looking at 454 Burbs, and the ones I saw for sale 1-2 months ago, still are, prices aren't really changing, but not really selling well either. Before they got snapped up pretty fast. People are starting to look at fuel economy. Me? I like the new cars, but I am not going to that much debt. We are climbing out of enough of it and have no credit cards anymore and only some medical bills and the house/utilities left. It feels good to get out from under it all!! And to pay cash for a car, not credit!)

On the fuel economy note...
You know, it would be slick to make it L92 AWD powered and hybrid (based off the Silverado brids w/DOD) out of the chute. Seeing a killer car like a FTS with 0-60 in under 6 seconds with 30-35 mpg could be what the market really needs!
 

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Probably.
I think the problem is that enthusiasts like us always want car companies to do things that make little business sense. Yeah, I know, some companies manage to do it but that's usually due to their being able to capitalize on another previously released car that can lend chassis parts to speed things along. This is the case with Chrysler these days. All these great "performance" cars are all getting belted out on the coat-tails of the popularity of the 300C.
 

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No, if Cadillac wants to make a top-line luxury car, you've gotta do it like they did back in the day - don't share it with the rest of GM, make it a Cadillac and a Cadillac ONLY.
The '76 Seville is a terrible car to remember. Yippee, a Caprice with a Cadillac badge. At that point, every GM brand made a car with the Caprice chassis/body. Cheapened the brand tremendously if you ask me That lead straight to the Cimarron...

The roofline and rear quarters are part of the unibody, so it would be a big redesign for the Statesman chassis. Ever notice how the Olds Intrigue, and Pontiac Grand Am look pretty much the same from the doors back? Same unibody. Saves money.

The reason why the current Deville doesn't look good stretched is that the hood and trunk are too short. Look at the '68-'76 cars. The Deville looks so sleek. Almost 19' long, but with that hood and trunk it looks right. Add the extra length for the Fleetwood and more for the Fleetwood 75 and it still looks good because the proportions are still good. Cad forward design is great for an economy car where space is at a premium, but this is a Cadillac so let's take up some space!

For the engine, a LS2 *would* kick @$$, or an LS7 for a hopped up version, but I'd rather see a Cadillac engine. Northstar is too small, but maybe a development on it incorporating some LS architecture as well. DOHC, variable valve timing, variable intake and exhaust, cylinder deactivation, limp-home capability, the works. Make it an 8 or a 16. We're Americans, 8's are our trademark, and Cadillac has history with the 16, leave the 12's for europe. Borrowing an LS engine might work to begin with, but it is still a borrowed engine. Mercedes doesn't borrow engines for their S-class, they design a world class engine for the car. If Cadillac wants to play, they're going to have to be armed accordingly.
 

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I don't think a DOHC engine is the way to go. A big vehicle like a Fleetwood needs a great Cadillac pushrod motor. Cadillac needs it's own LS7. Lot's of low-end torque, just like the old Caddy big blocks.
 

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Ok folks, this is how I see the return of the fleetwood. Right now with the baby bommer's getting on in years Cadillac needs a big road car. They need to bring back the chrome vertical tail lamps, huge grille, squared off sedan and coupe. I also think its time for the return of the fender skirt, wire wheels, opera lamps and white walls. It amazes me that people get in my Brougham and say this is huge and so comfortable. I say this is what cars should be like. I am one who likes to zip around in a sports cars as much as the next guy but when on the open road i want a smooth quiet ride with some power to spare. I would love to tow my boat with a big sedan that can handle the extra weight and keep me total comfort. I can't get that from my SUV. As I have been on this forum I am amazed at the age range of the members. So I am thinking that we have all ages and people from different walks of life who want a car like this. I remeber when they started taking chrome off the cars because the magazines liked the mono look. What is happening now? Everyone is ordering chorme wheels, grills and such. Fleetwood's return is now!!! Ok enough for my soapbox. HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!
 
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