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What do you pick?

  • tapout

    Votes: 15 68.2%
  • trifecta

    Votes: 7 31.8%
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Discussion Starter #1
Hey, guys ive beed doing some research on tuning and I am conflicted on deciding between trifecta and tapout

Im located in socal with a 17' M6 (with 91 oct) and i dont plan on doing other mods other than a tune.

It seems to be that tapout makes more sense if you plan on adding any boltons to the car, and trifecta makes sense if you want to keep it tune only.

Im not looking for insane gains, as I drive allot and i still want it to be a smooth drive train, engine safety is of upmost importance since i purchased the car

What do you guys recommend I do.
 

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'16 ATS-V MT6 Sedan, Alfas: '67 Duetto, '84 GTV6 3.5L 24v/Vette C5 project
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To borrow an analogy... Do you buy your suits off the rack, or do you like to go to a tailor?
 

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Im always gonna recommend a custom tune. At the end of the day, you know that tune file was customized specifically to your car and the fuel you run and can be sure you are getting the most power safely out of your setup. Plus you always have the ability to change things around. If you dont like how it drives, wanna make the throttle more or less responsive, etc etc, can always hit up scott and make small changes that make a big difference in your day to day driving.
 

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2017 ATS-V 6MT CWT Sedan, Tuned 2016 Explorer TT
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Based on the description of what you are looking for, I would go with Trifecta. Cost effective, safe and fits your needs. If you wanted to mod or screw around with the car, I would go with Tapout.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
so im assuming you went with tapout haha, I see your point, but then again, we all have the same engines, albeit we living in different conditions, so shouldn't the same suit fit the same body regardless of where you live?
 

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so im assuming you went with tapout haha, I see your point, but then again, we all have the same engines, albeit we living in different conditions, so shouldn't the same suit fit the same body regardless of where you live?
I have a tapout tune, yes.

Yes, we do all have the same engines....but different altitudes, different fuel quality, little details can make a difference when it comes to tuning. Like I said, with a custom tune, you know its been optimized to your car and its conditions. You can fine tune things more. You just have more control if you want to change little small things, its easier.

Obviously this becomes a much larger concern if you start modding the car and adding other parts but if stock, yea you can certainly get a solid tune from trifecta that will work just fine and add some power.

it really comes down to what you want...im someone that wants every last horsepower and wants to push the envelope plus im very familiar with hptuners and already owned it so it was an easy choice for me to go custom/tapout
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I have a tapout tune, yes.

Yes, we do all have the same engines....but different altitudes, different fuel quality, little details can make a difference when it comes to tuning. Like I said, with a custom tune, you know its been optimized to your car and its conditions. You can fine tune things more. You just have more control if you want to change little small things, its easier.

Obviously this becomes a much larger concern if you start modding the car and adding other parts but if stock, yea you can certainly get a solid tune from trifecta that will work just fine and add some power.

it really comes down to what you want...im someone that wants every last horsepower and wants to push the envelope plus im very familiar with hptuners and already owned it so it was an easy choice for me to go custom/tapout
Is hp tuners hard to use with no prior tuning experience?
 

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Is hp tuners hard to use with no prior tuning experience?
I've got hptuners and have never used it. I'll hook it up and look at the tune but I dont dare adjust anything lol. I bought it for datalogging and eventually a remote tune. We have 2 other cars that are hptuned. I'm sure a remote tune is easy. I think they email you a tune and you just download it onto your car from hptuners or something. Plenty of people have done it so somebody here can confirm.
 

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2017 ATS-V 6MT CWT Sedan, Tuned 2016 Explorer TT
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Is hp tuners hard to use with no prior tuning experience?
You are not going to be tuning it yourself. As far as the consumer is concerned, its a tool for loading a tune, monitoring and logging. Tuning is not something you just give a try and see how it goes. Results will be desastrous.
 

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2016 ATS-V A8
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You are not going to be tuning it yourself. As far as the consumer is concerned, its a tool for loading a tune, monitoring and logging. Tuning is not something you just give a try and see how it goes. Results will be desastrous.
BOOM!!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

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ATS-V Coupe, SRX 3.6
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Engine safety is your #1 concern, go Trifecta.

HP tuners are great, but you're limited by what they unlock and provide to you. Tapout advertises having features in their tune that they simply don't have.

Trifecta custom designed ARPM to push the fuel system without breaking it (Active Rail Pressure Management), tapout claims to have this feature, they don't it doesn't exist in HP tuners.

Either are good options, but for your use case I'd say Trifecta is the better bet.

Bring on the flames Tapout fan boys
 

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2016 ATS-V Coupe (Catti-V)
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I've had both. The Tapout calibration is much, much better and so is the customer service. Each one of these cars is it's own animal, and a canned tune can't account for those variances.
That's why you run logs and send it to them to fine tune. Unless you live near Tapout that's what they're doing as well.

That said, its really personal preference. I know all the normal fan boys are going to start flaming in here but the facts are out there and easily researched. I know I've had my tune tweaked multiple times and have added higher octane tune files as well. All that and I never paid a dime over my initial tune.
 

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Is hp tuners hard to use with no prior tuning experience?
As others have said, you arent tuning it yourself, you would just using hptuners to datalog, you send logs to tapout, he reads the data and makes adjustments to your tune, repeat the process until the tune has been perfected.


Hptuners is very easy and user friendly to use to me though
 

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Engine safety is your #1 concern, go Trifecta.

HP tuners are great, but you're limited by what they unlock and provide to you. Tapout advertises having features in their tune that they simply don't have.

Trifecta custom designed ARPM to push the fuel system without breaking it (Active Rail Pressure Management), tapout claims to have this feature, they don't it doesn't exist in HP tuners.

Either are good options, but for your use case I'd say Trifecta is the better bet.

Bring on the flames Tapout fan boys
To be bluntly honest here, I feel like trifecta makes a lot of claims and uses a lot of super technical jargon to describe pretty standard ECU functions in an over complicated way and not all of them seem to work as they claim...

ARPM is cool, but does it truly work the way they claim? I dont think so. If it did, when yall added fuel mods, meth, fuel cams etc, you would be making a bunch more boost than before with no need to retune, right? The factory fuel system lacks a lot in lower ranges, would think if the ARPM truly worked how they claimed, it would add a bunch of boost in all these ranges where the fuel supply had been increased.

Same thing with the whole bi direction enhanced knock control and zoning, just an overly complicated description of the 6 existing factory knock sensors that does the same thing stock and tuned with HPtuners. Then they claim the tune will 'adjust' for high octane fuel on its own, something that has been discussed a bunch and IMO, proven to be bullshit a few times. Theres a reason trifecta now offers seperate high octane tune files, because the claim that their tune would automatically adjust was BS. All tunes adjust knock based on 100 different factors. These ECUs are insanely complex, its never a black and white scenario with these cars.

As far as fuel pressure goes, well early on a lot of tuners came from the LS world and such, didnt really know what to expect, were running these cars like a port injected car 11.0-11.5 AFR ratios and pushing too much boost, putting lots of stress on the fuel systems and had manage to run a few cars super lean at high speeds causing damage, burnt valve on the only car id ever seen hurt

Scott @ tapout has never done this to anyones car and if tuned properly, is not an issue. With the cars air/fuel in line where it should be as a DI car and being reasonable with boost demands, there is no concern of dropping rail pressure.

And the stock security measures are still in place so if the rail pressure drops to low, it will send the car into limp mode as well.

With all that said, i still think either would be a good option, trifecta is gonna be a plug and play solution if he just wants to tune it and go and not mess with hptuners or anything and truly plans to stay tune only forever, id agree that trifecta may be the better option for his needs.
 

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To be bluntly honest here, I feel like trifecta makes a lot of claims and uses a lot of super technical jargon to describe pretty standard ECU functions in an over complicated way and not all of them seem to work as they claim...

ARPM is cool, but does it truly work the way they claim? I dont think so. If it did, when yall added fuel mods, meth, fuel cams etc, you would be making a bunch more boost than before with no need to retune, right? The factory fuel system lacks a lot in lower ranges, would think if the ARPM truly worked how they claimed, it would add a bunch of boost in all these ranges where the fuel supply had been increased.

Same thing with the whole bi direction enhanced knock control and zoning, just an overly complicated description of the 6 existing factory knock sensors that does the same thing stock and tuned with HPtuners. Then they claim the tune will 'adjust' for high octane fuel on its own, something that has been discussed a bunch and IMO, proven to be bullshit a few times. Theres a reason trifecta now offers seperate high octane tune files, because the claim that their tune would automatically adjust was BS. All tunes adjust knock based on 100 different factors. These ECUs are insanely complex, its never a black and white scenario with these cars.

As far as fuel pressure goes, well early on a lot of tuners came from the LS world and such, didnt really know what to expect, were running these cars like a port injected car 11.0-11.5 AFR ratios and pushing too much boost, putting lots of stress on the fuel systems and had manage to run a few cars super lean at high speeds causing damage, burnt valve on the only car id ever seen hurt

Scott @ tapout has never done this to anyones car and if tuned properly, is not an issue. With the cars air/fuel in line where it should be as a DI car and being reasonable with boost demands, there is no concern of dropping rail pressure.

And the stock security measures are still in place so if the rail pressure drops to low, it will send the car into limp mode as well.

With all that said, i still think either would be a good option, trifecta is gonna be a plug and play solution if he just wants to tune it and go and not mess with hptuners or anything and truly plans to stay tune only forever, id agree that trifecta may be the better option for his needs.
Some of your statements are more opinion than what Trifecta actually says. They don't say it adjust up to higher octanes. Their tune will run better on higher octane because there is less knock. To get the added power with octanes above 93 the tune has to be revised.

TRIFECTA Bi-directional Enhanced Knock Control and Zoning

Whether anybody wants to believe it, or not, “knock”, defined as noise detected by the knock sensors, is going to occur from time to time. Generally this occurs when there's a transient change in fuel quality, or operating conditions. While the factory's knock control constructs are advanced, they make certain assumptions about how, and in which direction to adjust knock factor when knock is detected. The factory knock control strategy on the Cadillac ATS-V uses one zone only, encompassing the entire RPM range, and engine load range. TRIFECTA's Cadillac ATS-V calibration utilizes six zones and allows for finer self-adjustment when dynamic timing adjustments are needed. Furthermore, TRIFECTA's enhanced knock control employs an “ongoing” strategy which retains learned knock factors even after the engine is shut down, and continues to use them the next time the engine is started. Bi-directional knock control allows the ECM to begin its knock adaptation in the middle of the timing adjustment map, rather than always assuming it's running “high octane” fuel and potentially exposing the engine to audible knock.
Concerning the ARPM. They have a whole separate page that explains how it works in detail. It's designed to work with the factory fuel pump and adjust fuel levels on the fly to maintain power vs. just shutting the door and throwing a code. It can not increase fuel to match additional mods nor do they make that claim. The only way to accomplish that is to increase the capacity of the fuel pump. Their programming makes fine adjustments rather than cutting everything off with a code. My last car would do that when it sensed a fuel drop. It would just shut the throttle.

https://www.trifectaperformance.com/index.html/trifecta-active-rail-pressure-management-r87/

All I'm doing is stating facts rather then making my own hypothesis to justify my purchases.
 

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Some of your statements are more opinion than what Trifecta actually says. They don't say it adjust up to higher octanes. Their tune will run better on higher octane because there is less knock. To get the added power with octanes above 93 the tune has to be revised.


Concerning the ARPM. They have a whole separate page that explains how it works in detail. It's designed to work with the factory fuel pump and adjust fuel levels on the fly to maintain power vs. just shutting the door and throwing a code. It can not increase fuel to match additional mods nor do they make that claim. The only way to accomplish that is to increase the capacity of the fuel pump. Their programming makes fine adjustments rather than cutting everything off with a code. My last car would do that when it sensed a fuel drop. It would just shut the throttle.

https://www.trifectaperformance.com/index.html/trifecta-active-rail-pressure-management-r87/

All I'm doing is stating facts rather then making my own hypothesis to justify my purchases.
I am just saying things that trifecta fanboys scream constantly, claims of tune adjusting for octane and claims that the ARPM adjusts boost according to rail pressure etc. Neither seem to be true. I believe the trifecta owners also had told customers that their tune would adjust for octane as well?

Maybe you should re-read what I said because I never said anything about increasing fuel in a tune to match mods, no idea where you got that from what I said, a tune cant increase the fuel supply. I said if you add a fuel cam you will have increased your fuel supply by 20% or so....if the ARPM works as they claim, then a trifecta tuned car should automatically run more boost and hold more boost everywhere with the additional 20% fuel, right? Rail pressure would no longer drop in the same areas as before so the tune should allow more boost.... I dont believe this is the case at all.

Again, there has been many claims of the trifecta tune adjusting for higher octane, these are main point the trifecta guys like to use when comparing trifecta to whoever. I have seen trifecta logs where guys added 104 octane and the car added no timing at all...maybe was like 1 degree, which is just normal fluctuation, not added timing. I believe you were actually talking about running 100 octane tune and letting it scale down to 93 octane recently...the only way its doing this is by knocking like crazy as the computer slowly pulls back timing...I guess it works, but my gut tells me the tune is not optimized for 100 octane to its fullest and the fact that you have to beat on the car as it knocks a ton for it to dial back to 93 or w/e just doesnt sit well with me. There is no magic sensors sensing your fuel octane, its simply adjusting timing based on knock or lack of knock, which the ECU naturally does stock and with a custom hptuners tune, theres even settings in there you can play with to allow the tune to adapt timing advance with a larger range so you could theoretically achieve the same thing with a hptuners if you wanted to.

In order to go into limp mode you basically have to suck the rail dry, so you have a serious issue if you get that far, its not going to go into limp from a small dip.

Throttle closure issues are complicated, have to do with commanded boost levels, desired torque limits, and exceeding them, I dont believe your throttle will shut from fuel pressure unless your car goes into limp mode, which again, you have to have a serious issue to or a terrible stupidly rich tune commanding way too much boost to get it to do that. This does not happen with a tapout tune.

I mean, theres one single full weight ATSV that has gone tens with only a tune, and its my car, I dont need to "justify" anything, my time slip is all the validation I need that I have a top notch tune.
 

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That's why you run logs and send it to them to fine tune. Unless you live near Tapout that's what they're doing as well.
Yeah- I tried that with Trifecta. They refused to look at my logs. All they wanted to say was that my car was broken. Only after my car sat at the dealer for 2 days for a complete diagnostic (which came back clean) and I needlessly replaced my plugs did they relent and refund my money.

I didn't have a single one of the hardware problems Trifecta suggested I had when working with Scott. They all just miraculously disappeared. So, either the dealership, Scott, or any of the 100s of logs I've done are wrong, or Trifecta was.

That said, its really personal preference. I know all the normal fan boys are going to start flaming in here but the facts are out there and easily researched. I know I've had my tune tweaked multiple times and have added higher octane tune files as well. All that and I never paid a dime over my initial tune.
My personal preference is for my car to run as well as it can, safely. I didn't get there until I went with Tapout.

Anyways, these are my experiences, and I don't expect anyone else to align with me perfectly. I could care less who the OP goes with- my car pulls like a freight train and runs like a champ. My MATs are low, fueling is right at 12.5, I have zero knock, and the car has stock-like behavior at light throttle. That's all I can ask for, and I'm glad to be there with it.

I'm just glad I found Scott, because I sure as hell didn't get there with Trifecta or the shop tune I had before he calibrated my car.

I do agree that the facts are out there- my favorite set of them is in the 1/4 mile rankings chart.
 
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