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2008 CTS Black Raven Sedan / LY7 / 6 Speed Manual AY6 / RWD
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Discussion Starter #1
I'm trying to get an idea of how much interest this idea would generate. There are a few bolt-on kits right now that range from 6.5-10k+ which is a lot more than many are willing / able to spend. What if there was a solution for considerably less than that with a significant gain in power, but not 100's of horsepower?

I am in the midst of developing something for my own car over this winter that would utilize readily available and economical parts like Eaton and not require any cutting or major work. On our cars we face several hurdles, one is the amount of room at the front of the hood, another is the strut towers and then of course we have maybe 1/10th of the available aftermarket components compared to a Sigma2 Camaro. Fitting something under the hood might be possible, but the heat exchanger would likely push it beyond that height.

Belt routing is easy, intake routing is easyish lol. Heat is the killer here, more boost = more heat = more cooling needed. This is where was start to talk about moderate fixed boost levels vs. stage 1/2/3 stuff. All 3 of the engines have an advantage over GM's older supercharged variants - such as the M90 on the 3.8L. Our engines rev faster, have higher compression and are more efficient in general. This means that less boost = more power on our cars which would allow the possibility of running without a heat exchanger or something very minimal. Everything added to the kit would add cost as well.

Roots type blowers have an amazing torque curve which starts ridiculously low in the power band. Our engines don't have enough low end torque and a roots will fill in that gap as well as amplify the whole power band. They're reliable, they're rebuildable, they're a great idea in general. I've been looking at an Audi S4 and even they are using an Eaton on their high-line German made sports sedan.

So the question would be, if a kit were available at a much lower cost which could be bolted on at home (for most) how many of you would be interested in it? It would obviously need a tune (from Will likely) and you would be running premium.

There is a lot of things to be done, but it is in the works. I will likely have the first prototype adapter somewhere around January / February of next year and will be testing things from there.
 

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'12 CTS Performance Sports Wagon AWD
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Would be interesting to see what you come up with. The M90 Eaton is not big enough. I believe the one they use on the camaros is the M115 Eaton or something like that. The tube comes from the back and the front of the super charger is high so you end up with it sticking out of the hood a little and I don't know if the strut brace can go back on. Some of the cost of the kit comes from relocating the power steering and washer fluid bottles as well as new injectors and fuel pump. You may be able to shave some of that off but I don't know how much. I don't know if the M90 on the 3.8 has a cooler or not but I don't believe it does. I know the Magnuson unit uses a water to air unit that makes life easier to plumb.

I would definetly be interested in a positive displacement unit. Assuming I still want to when I retire I will likely go with the Eaton unit that Tracy and Will have put together. I just don't like the idea of spending over $7000 for it. But I also think that includes installation too. You can save yourself quite a bit if you source some of the components yourself. I may decide to see if I can get the components that I HAVE to get from them and build the rest myself. I will be giving Tracy probably about $5000 in January for parts for my new engine for my truck. So hopefully he will be willing to help me get the components I need to do the install myself when time comes for the SC. Tracy and Will work together for those kits.

When I talked to Tracy he told me that from them you can buy the Centrifugal or the Eaton PD SC. They also have a twin turbo kit available as well that will bolt on. I don't believe they have the Eaton PD on a CTS yet but they have multiple Centrifugal units out there. I too agree that the Eaton SC would be the best. Especially with our cars. Not many vehicles that the Eaton SC wouldn't be a better unit on.

One note about the Eaton SC. If you go with that setup you probably won't benefit as much from a high stall convertor. Tracy's shop sells a high stall convertor for our cars to help with the fact the HP/Torque are made closer to the red line. It would be interesting to see what the Eaton PD SC power line looks like compared to the Centrifugal SC.

We shall see...
 

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2008 CTS Black Raven Sedan / LY7 / 6 Speed Manual AY6 / RWD
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Discussion Starter #5
I would definetly be interested in a positive displacement unit.
If I cannot fit it under the hood, then it's likely not going to happen. The 90 is too small, I'm looking at the M112 as a possibility for the project. Finding something that has more volume and less PSI will mean it's a bigger unit but it will run cooler and possibly run without intercooling. The tradeoff is height, all 3 engines should be the same overall height I believe. I need to speak with the V and ZL1 guys to see how those hoods differ in height at the front of the car as they both have the LSA under the hood. That might be another option to gain some height, but adds a lot of cost again (although it'd look cool lol)

It wouldn't be a kit per se, but more of a few key components made of CNC billet aluminum and some other goodies then likely a cookbook of what's needed and where to get it. The machinist that would be making the parts would need to get paid for his R&D, time, materials, etc.

I would have a lot of time in it as well, but I'm not looking to make a career of it. I have a career already lol, but I will be taking time that I would want some (albeit very little) compensation.
 

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2012 Silver Perf Coupe awd ; 2013 Silver Premium Coupe- awd: currently 2012 Premium Coupe -awd
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I have had 3 supercharged Rivs and realllly miss the torque. I would go for torque personally- I am ok with the stock HP but it has to be WOT to get it. I am looking for a low mile coupe that I will probably keep for whatever life I have left and the missing torque is actually the only thing that I can't change to my liking.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I have had 3 supercharged Rivs and realllly miss the torque. I would go for torque personally- I am ok with the stock HP but it has to be WOT to get it. I am looking for a low mile coupe that I will probably keep for whatever life I have left and the missing torque is actually the only thing that I can't change to my liking.
Yes, torque is king especially with heavy vehicles. The Gen1 CTS was a much lighter car and the lack of torque wasn't as noticeable IMO. That's really the main goal on this project, low end torque. A gain of 100 hp would bring the HP to weight ratio to something a lot more desirable of course, but filling in the low end torque is everything.
 

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'09 CTS DI FE1 Luxury
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Don't count me as a potential buyer but I will be following with great interest anyway. Good luck with the project.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
It looks like we're at about 5.5" tall with the Eaton. The pulley is lower than that, but the front of the engine is the tricky part. The strut tower brace could be easily replaced with something stronger and smaller, it's already a pain with the spacer I have on the LY7 intake.

My CTS will be coming off the road soon as Ontario winter will be coming very shortly. This will be the first chance I've had to really dig in to the car (probably because the one the actually goes fast takes all my time lol)

I will be fixing a plethora of unrelated issues like doors that don't open from the outside, parking brake, freakshow suspension, etc. - but the getting the intake ripped apart will be high up on that list. It will give me the first look at what's possible and what's not.
 

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2013 Black Diamond CTS4 Premium Coupe (sold-09 CTS4 DI Black Raven/Ebony)
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I too am another that probably will not be a buyer (too many other projects to fund) but I will be following your progress. It would be nice to see you succeed in this. I am a big fan of torquemonsters.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I too am another that probably will not be a buyer (too many other projects to fund) but I will be following your progress. It would be nice to see you succeed in this. I am a big fan of torquemonsters.
HurstGN, I have a lot on the go too. I think the Camaro guys will be more interested overall, but there are a lot of LY7 CTS's on the road still. Some that are AWD and auto which I can't even imagine how much of a dog those would be. Everything will be more than reasonable in cost, it's really the Eaton that will determine how affordable it could be.

Methanol injection would be something that would keep the costs down as well, but would require the end user to make sure the tank was full and the system was functioning. A failsafe for this could likely be built into the tune however - if the IAT's reached a certain temp, then the timing curve would take a hit to prevent detonation. My plan is to make it a DIY modular sort of kit which would let you buy the adapters and a few machined components necessary for the installation. You could then source your own head unit and other components whenever you have time / money, this way you could acquire parts for it as money allowed at your own pace and build it out that way.

There will be a lot of R&D on my side and likely the marketing aspect of it as well, but as I had stated I'm not looking to make a career of it. It will be as cheap as I can possibly make it, the LY7 guys will actually end up being harder to do as their injectors will need to be upgraded as well as the pump in the tank.
 

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Sign me up, son. I think this would sell like hotcakes.
 
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Go ahead, blame me. Everybody does 🙄
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You've gathered the attention of many former supercharged 3800 owners...
 

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I can attest to the success of methanol injection. Used to do it on my cars. We had folks running 30 lbs of boost on the street with 87 pump gas and methanol injection. After everyone saw the success, the market bloomed. We then moved over to propane. Folks are a little squeemish about propane in the car, but it works well. I could see a Caddy with propane. (y)
 

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The big issue with an Eaton unit is hood clearance, there really isn’t any. Not sure how many are willing to cut a hood you can’t even clear it with a V hood.

If you’re going for less than 100whp add on then the cheapest and easiest method is nitrous.


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GARY!!!
 

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2008 CTS Black Raven Sedan / LY7 / 6 Speed Manual AY6 / RWD
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Discussion Starter #17
The big issue with an Eaton unit is hood clearance, there really isn’t any. Not sure how many are willing to cut a hood you can’t even clear it with a V hood.

If you’re going for less than 100whp add on then the cheapest and easiest method is nitrous.


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It is, but nitrous is pretty sketchy to get in some places and illegal in a lot -- not that it matters, but it's not a reasonable possibility for many. Same as E85, we have barely any here yet some places it's everywhere. I would love to use E85 but it's not realistic for me.

Once I get the car in the garage I'll measure some stuff out, the Eaton I'm looking at needs about 4.5" of height and then obviously an adapter to make it fit. The bigger Eaton blowers need a lot of room, but that's not what I'm talking about here. This would be a fixed & moderate amount of boost & power for those looking for 400ish horsepower and a lot more torque where it needs to be.
 

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Do you mean at the wheels or at the flywheel? Sounds like you could do the same for about $1000 worth of stuff and E85 if you can find it. If you mean at the flywheel. I haven't tested out my car to see if the sensor is working before I put in E85 yet. We have a gas station just up the road from me that has E85. Last time I looked it was 319 for 91 octane and 199 for E85. Even with the less gas mileage the E85 is significantly cheaper.

I should be making 400hp at the flywheel with my setup now. Looking to get MACE cams and torque convertor from Tracy Performance and Will Overkill at the end of January. Will will be doing the Dyno tune at Tracy's shop. I should be able to get somewhere over 450-460 at the flywheel, possibly more with the tune. I should be running 360-370 at the wheels tentatively. We shall see what happens when I get on the Dyno. I would expect to be in low 13's in 1/4 mile if not faster. With the Torque convertor I could be in the 12's. So anything I add would have to be a boost to that. I may look into meth injection over the winter too. already using straight alchohol in my washer mixture.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Well, a few things to consider here:
1. E85 isn’t available everywhere
2. The LFX / Delphi setup has more options now so that’s not necessarily the primary target market
3. Horsepower sells things but it’s the low end torque from a screw blower that moves things. Whether or not it’s +100 flywheel is irrelevant, it’s the torque that counts
4. There are a massive amount of LLT and LY7 vehicles on the road right now that could use a moderately priced system
 

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Rod, I am very much looking forward to dyno sheets and time slips. I will be amazed if you meet your expectations. It takes a lot of torque (not just peak hp) to move a 2 ton vehicle through the 1/4 mile two seconds quicker.
 
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