STS-V Pricing is $77K!!!

b4z · 2005-10-05

pricing just announced. XLR-V is $100K So much for value pricing. Caddy really dropped the ball on pricing the new V's.

Luna.

· #141 · Oct 14, 2005

Ralph said:
Question...(and I'm just curious)

Does it really matter how Cadillac achieves the HP? Whether Corvette engine or DOHC? Aren't the numbers the most important aspect with buyers who want bragging rights?

To me, hell no. I'd take a lawn-mower engine if it made 500+ lb feet of torque...

Great article on the STS-V. The following para caught my eye:

"That’s just the regular stuff. With the performance CTS-V, Cadillac began to excite enthusiasts but knew it needed something more to be a player in the luxury-performance field ruled by the likes of the Mercedes E55 AMG and BMW M5. Cadillac’s plan called for the STS-V to be its high-end player"

I would think that the previous idea of the 520 lb feet of torque motor would be much more "high-end player" than its current powerplant, but perhaps that is just me. I'm also willing to bet that with that motor alone, many people, including CTS-V fans, wouldn't be nearly as critical of the STS-V either...I know I wouldn't be.

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Ralph

· #142 · Oct 14, 2005

Luna. said:
I'm also willing to bet that with that motor alone, many people, including CTS-V fans, wouldn't be nearly as critical of the STS-V either...I know I wouldn't be.

Do you think that Cadillac would be criticized for using "old world technology" in the likes of a pushrod in the new STS-V? I know that many automobile commercials on television seem to sell technology as the focal point implying that "our car has better magnetic suspension, better zenon headlights, smarter computers and engine management" but then comes the part about the engine and I wonder if Cadillac would make it a point to mention "it's just pushrod technology that's over 100 years old" LOL.... Or, "We just stuffed a Corvette engine in there to kick ass, and it saved us money in production..."

I think they are trying to modernize this car as much as possible with a supercharged Northstar etc, but in the end I tend to agree with you that the final numbers and performance are all that really matter. I think either way, they will be criticized....

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davesdeville

· #143 · Oct 14, 2005

Luna. said:
I continue to hear all this talk about an "enthusiast" and that this car or that car is an "enthusiast's car," but I suppose I'm confused... What on earth does it mean to be an "enthusiast's car?" What--that I am an ardent supportor of Cadillac? That I have a strong liking for the car?? :wtf:

And I don't believe that Cadillac should settle for "good enough" with its V-series cars.

I'm saying an "enthusiast" is the type who will supercharge their CTS-V, run headers, etc... What's so hard to get?

Ralph said:
Does it really matter how Cadillac achieves the HP? Whether Corvette engine or DOHC? Aren't the numbers the most important aspect with buyers who want bragging rights?

It doesn't matter to ME, but then again it tends to with people buying an $80k car for whatever reason.

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MCaesar

· #144 · Oct 14, 2005

I think it is great the American car companies are finally producing some cars that are worthy to be compared to AMG and M.

For the STS-V to really do well it must score well on several of these factors:

Price - it must sell for less than the E55 and M5. I prefer to buy American but most people in this price range don't. Only years of great cars and service will change that.

Performance - the promise is there with the 469HP but it has to translate to on the road performance as well. Not only does it have to produce similar times to the Germans, it has to produce similar quality feel. That is critical. It can not feel like a muscle car. It has to feel like a fine tuned instrument. Here Cadillac can actually beat AMG as the E55 has been criticized for having an artifical feel due to its electrohydraulic brakes.

Reliability - must be top notch.

Service - people with big bucks must be treated well.

"Panache" - some cars just take off in the public's eye due to styling (like the 92 Seville) or performance (Z06). Even look at the Escalade and how it became a darling of the public. I don't know if the styling on the STS-V is going to trigger that.

I don't think the car has to score highly in all areas, just most of them.

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Dave's V

· #145 · Oct 14, 2005

Many peeople are assuming they'll get a STS V for MSRP or less. I don't see that happening when they first come out.

The three Vs attract a different kind of customer. If given a choice, I would bet most ************ would buy a Z06 if they had to spend around $80k for a car.

People that don't think the CTS V should be a Caddy need to research V history. No matter how successful the STS V is, the CTS V already proved that an American car maker can beat the imports at their own game on and off the track and with "old" technology.

I'm personally not a fan of new techology. Pushrod engines have proven to be extremely reliable for 40+ years. The Northstar is a great engine but they have had their share of problems.

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MCaesar

· #146 · Oct 14, 2005

I also prefer pushrod engines.

When you take into account overall size (exterior, not displacement), reliability, durability, cost to manufacture, and performance most of the time a well refined pushrod will come out ahead.

I would love to see a size, weight, and cost comparison for the normally aspirated LS2 versus the Northstar engine. Or a Z06 engine vs the supercharged Northstar

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Luna.

· #147 · Oct 14, 2005

davesdeville said:
I'm saying an "enthusiast" is the type who will supercharge their CTS-V, run headers, etc... What's so hard to get?

Why don't you look up the definition of the word "enthusiast" and you might understand, for that surely isn't how I would define it.

If I understand correctly, you are basically claiming that an enthusiast is someone who will modify their cars to perform better. Well, I have a news bulletin for you: if you believe that many STS-V owners won't modify their STS-Vs, you are really kidding yourself because I can guarantee they are out there.

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ktills45

· #148 · Oct 14, 2005

Dave's V said:
Many peeople are assuming they'll get a STS V for MSRP or less. I don't see that happening when they first come out.

The three Vs attract a different kind of customer. If given a choice, I would bet most ************ would buy a Z06 if they had to spend around $80k for a car.

People that don't think the CTS V should be a Caddy need to research V history. No matter how successful the STS V is, the CTS V already proved that an American car maker can beat the imports at their own game on and off the track and with "old" technology.

I'm personally not a fan of new techology. Pushrod engines have proven to be extremely reliable for 40+ years. The Northstar is a great engine but they have had their share of problems.

Every engine has had it's share of problems.

However, Cadillac has been making the N* for quite some time now, so supercharging it makes a great motor even better. It also saves major coin form GM, thereby making the resurgent Cadillac more profitable.

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MCaesar

· #149 · Oct 14, 2005

How about a supercharged Z06 motor?!!!

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Ralph

· #150 · Oct 14, 2005

MCaesar said:
I also prefer pushrod engines.

When you take into account overall size (exterior, not displacement), reliability, durability, cost to manufacture, and performance most of the time a well refined pushrod will come out ahead.

Lets say Cadillac will start using supercharged Corvette engines in the STS-V. Wouldn't the automotive media rip appart Cadillac for "taking the easy route?" I wonder if many Benz or AMG drivers would thumb their noses at an STS-V driver for that reason......the Cadillac would likely be accused of being "unsophisticated, primitive and un-refined."

Personally i think many AMG drivers would be more concerned if they started using supoercharged Vette engines.....

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MCaesar

· #151 · Oct 14, 2005

Ralph said:
Lets say Cadillac will start using supercharged Corvette engines in the STS-V. Wouldn't the automotive media rip appart Cadillac for "taking the easy route?" I wonder if many Benz or AMG drivers would thumb their noses at an STS-V driver for that reason......the Cadillac would likely be accused of being "unsophisticated, primitive and un-refined."

Persoanlly i think many AMG drivers would be more concerned if they started using supoercharged Vette engines.....

A supercharged Z06 motor would eat the E55 and M5 alive. It would give you acceleration in the S65 range for half the price.

600+ HP wouldn't matter if it was DOHC or pushrods.

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Ralph

· #152 · Oct 14, 2005

MCaesar said:
A supercharged Z06 motor would eat the E55 and M5 alive. It would give you acceleration in the S65 range for half the price.

600+ HP wouldn't matter if it was DOHC or pushrods.

Hmmm, good point!! I just wonder if the jealous MB and Beemer drivers would still thumb their noses at the lack of technology, etc....

I also wonder if there would be a pricing difference in the STS-V between these two engines....

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CVP33

· #153 · Oct 15, 2005

MCaesar said:
A supercharged Z06 motor would eat the E55 and M5 alive. It would give you acceleration in the S65 range for half the price.

600+ HP wouldn't matter if it was DOHC or pushrods.

Now you're talking! Just prior to the CTS-V coming out, no one was complaining I wish it had more power or had a S/C'r. With the STS-V I'm hearing just the opposite. Americans love to be the bully. If your German engineered car has 500hp, then I want 505hp or more! If you do it with a supercharger than we'll do it normally aspirated. Who doesn't take pride in thumbing their nose at the traditional sports sedan?

What Lutz would do is sit and think about what would Mercedes and BMW really hate for us to do? What would they least expect? I've got it. Let's put the Z06 motor in the STS-V. That'll show their asses. It won't fit? Bullshit!? Define impossible. Lutz would fire back "find a way or find your way out!"

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davesdeville

· #154 · Oct 15, 2005

Luna. said:
Why don't you look up the definition of the word "enthusiast" and you might understand, for that surely isn't how I would define it.

If I understand correctly, you are basically claiming that an enthusiast is someone who will modify their cars to perform better. Well, I have a news bulletin for you: if you believe that many STS-V owners won't modify their STS-Vs, you are really kidding yourself because I can guarantee they are out there.

There are going to be FAR more people modifying CTS-Vs than STS-Vs. For obvious reasons - the Chevy motor with all its aftermarket. With 2000 cars plus a few XLR-Vs, how many people do you honestly think are going to make performance parts for the S/C N* cars?

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ktills45

· #155 · Oct 15, 2005

davesdeville said:
There are going to be FAR more people modifying CTS-Vs than STS-Vs. For obvious reasons - the Chevy motor with all its aftermarket. With 2000 cars plus a few XLR-Vs, how many people do you honestly think are going to make performance parts for the S/C N* cars?

The N* is not a very modifiable engine. So no one.

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ktills45

· #156 · Oct 15, 2005

CVP33 said:
Now you're talking! Just prior to the CTS-V coming out, no one was complaining I wish it had more power or had a S/C'r. With the STS-V I'm hearing just the opposite. Americans love to be the bully. If your German engineered car has 500hp, then I want 505hp or more! If you do it with a supercharger than we'll do it normally aspirated. Who doesn't take pride in thumbing their nose at the traditional sports sedan?

What Lutz would do is sit and think about what would Mercedes and BMW really hate for us to do? What would they least expect? I've got it. Let's put the Z06 motor in the STS-V. That'll show their asses. It won't fit? Bullshit!? Define impossible. Lutz would fire back "find a way or find your way out!"

The STS-V in it's current iteration does not have the same target market as the CTS-V. It will sell well ( since there's only going to be 2k of them

).

Look for the next gen to be the firebreather, but only if the current A&S cars continue to sell well. Which they all seem to be.

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Dooman

· #157 · Oct 15, 2005

And just remember, the new AMG 500+hp motor is now NOT supercharged. They can say they do it without pressure.

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MCaesar

· #158 · Oct 15, 2005

Dooman said:
And just remember, the new AMG 500+hp motor is now NOT supercharged. They can say they do it without pressure.

It has similar output as the Z06 motor - slightly less. I would like to know external dimensions, weight, and cost to build on each motor.

I don't think that many people who buy an STS-V will modify at all. Once you start spending that much money for a car only a few modify and they usually go to a noted tuner whereas in the CTS-V price range I bet more people will do it themselves.

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lawfive

· #159 · Oct 15, 2005

Dooman said:
And just remember, the new AMG 500+hp motor is now NOT supercharged. They can say they do it without pressure.

I think you're making our guys' point: drop an LS7 in the STS-V = 500+ HP normally aspirated. Then offer an STS-V+ (e.g. M or AMG) version with a blower, and stand back.

Or just get it over with and put a blown LS7 on the base STS-V.

"Can you say, 'SL65 killer'? Sure. I knew you could."

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MacOSR

· #160 · Oct 15, 2005

There is much more to this discussion then has been said (unless I missed it).

I currently have a 2004 CTS-V that I purchased the day it hit the dealers floor. I even foolishly paid a premium over MSRP which I will never do again for ANY car. This was my first Cadillac (at 31) and my 6th new GM vehicle. I have always been a die-hard US-made vehicle purchaser..."buy American!" I did compare the CTS-V to the BMW M3 and still chose the Cadillac CTS-V over the BMW M3.

My top reasons for choosing the CTS-V over the BMW M3 in order:

1. Performance
2. American made
3. Perceived better value

Recently I have decided to purchase a 2006 BMW M5. I had many factors in my decision making process. I considered keeping my 2004 CTS-V, getting a Mercedes (various models), getting an STS-V.

Here were my top reasons for deciding to not keep the CTS-V:

1. GM releasing a car with terrible wheel hop.
2. GM's poor response to the wheel hop.
3. GM's decision to spec a rear-end not designed to handle the power the motor puts out.
4. GM's response to rear-end problems.

Here were my top reasons for deciding to not get an STS-V:

1. It is made by GM and I have lost faith in GM due to the response to CTS-V issues.
2. I think it is an old man's car (forgive me...this is my perception).
3. Not enough performance.
4. No auto shifting manual option (BMW SMG).
5. I don't see the price justification.

Here were my top reasons for going with the 2006 BMW M5:

1. Performance.
2. Status.
3. SMG III
4. Interior quality
5. Friend's experiences with multiple M3's (good).
6. I like it better then anything out there in its class.
7. Unbelievable treatment by the BMW dealer

I think the comparison between the CTS-V and the STS-V is a silly one to make. I don't believe many true performance enthusiasts would choose the STS-V. Yes you will have the executives that will choose the STS-V because of its power but when you are in that price range if you were truly considering performance and luxury you would most likely choose a Mercedes or a BMW. The target market is the executive that wants an American luxury 4 door large sedan with power.

What should be most concerning to GM is why did I decide this year to move away from American made vehicles when I wouldn't have even have considered it three years ago?

1. I feel that GM pisses on the customer. Look at the wheel hop and rear-end problems on the CTS-V.
2. We are now a global economy. GM's vehicles are using parts made in China so what is the real difference.
3. Dealer attitudes. I was trying to purchase two 2005 Cadillac Escalades and a 2006 Corvette Z06 and the dealer wouldn't deal with me on price (the Escalades were selling too well I guess). I was willing to pay MSRP on the vette but wanted dealer invoice on the Escalades. I ended up getting a couple Toyota Sequoia Limiteds and now the M5.
4. When doing side-by-side comparisons I felt there was a much better value for my $ in the Toyota's.

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