[The Tony Show]

I think that the difference between a CTS-V and STS-V buyer may very well be exemplified by the conduct in this thread.

Not one negative comment has been made by STS fans about the CTS-V, yet all the CTS owners feel the need to make comments like the one above. Why? No one from the STS forum goes over to your section and puts down your car. CVP claimed that the CTS-V had the same luxury content as the STS-V, and there would be "crickets" if you tried to list the advantages of the STS-V in that category. I listed twenty-five (off the top of my head!), and instead of owning up to being wrong, the argument just changed to "that luxury stuff's for old fogies". The only crickets I hear are from your camp.

Perhaps the STS-V buyers are concerned about things other than "owning you on the road". Perhaps they aren't interested in doing a Vin Deisel impression and living life "a quarter mile at a time", and perhaps they are considering more than the powertrain and lateral G's when selecting a vehicle, but rather the whole package.

You guys need to find something constructive to do with your time, because if you want to start name calling and cutting down other people's cars, I could spend all day on yours. Perhaps we can agree to disagreeabout what makes a good car, return to the discussion of STS-Vs, and leave the rudeness out of it?

Doubtful...

 

[CVP33]

You're not paying that $51k for a lot of luxury options, you're paying it for speed.

Tony,

You're mistaken again. My post was in response to David's above. We not only get the performance to best the cars in our class we also get the luxury options.

As for the negativity. I would label the term "entry level" as the first salvo among many. After that you and David both got what you deserved. A cold serving of truth and facts. Hard to swallow for some.

As for the 1/4 mile. That again was David's comment not ours. We claim that the CTS-V will kill the STS-V on the track because it already has. Nurburgring a bell? 11 seconds on a road course is a lifetime.

And as for my actions, I've not been rude. I've been honest.

Take care and save the lectures. :thehand:

 

[Crozier]

Except the M5 is definitely a better performer than the M3.

I believe that you are wrong with this statement. I'm pretty sure that when comparing M3's and M5's from the same generation, the M3 wins consistantly in most performance numbers.

 

[The Tony Show]

It's not a lecture, I just think it's silly that everyone here who owns a CTS-V wants to compare track numbers. The STS-V isn't a track car, and no one said it was. Your "cricket" comment was silly, because the STS-V has twice the amount of luxury as the CTS-V.

As far as the rest of your comments, it's pretty sad that while you lecture another poster for being young and immature, most of your comments are directly out of the "internet tough guy" handbook. I particularly like the little smileys.

Cadillac owners in general should show a little unity, because if other Cadillac models don't succeed, there won't even be such a thing as a V-Series car in a few years. To claim you aren't rude is ridiculous Just take a look at your own signature.

Finally, don't claim your opinions as being truth. You said that the CTS-V "stomped" the S4, then why did Car and Driver magazine (Vol 50, #5) say that, "Although the CTS-V's value rated high, it fared worse in areas realted to refinement: driver comfort, ergonomics and engine noise, vibration and harshness. It was by far the noisiest inside at wide open throttle, prompting one tester to write that it came across as "the muscle car of the group", which in this case is a tepid accolade." The feelings of superiority you have for your V are the same as others will have for their STS-V, but for different reasons, and not everyone will agree.

 

[Crozier]

...add a Maggie and you're still less than an STS-V and it isn't LUXURIOUS enough, IMHO, to justify the additional heft of the car.

Man, these are dangerous comparisons to start on.... Do you know what I can do with a 93 camaro and $10k? For $13,000 total I can blow the doors off of your $50k Caddy....

I know that's not what you're saying, but comparing cheaper moded cars to more expensive stock ones can turn really silly fast!

 

[Crozier]

CVP33,

Is this honestly your sig now????

"My neighbor wanted a car that looked fast, was overpriced and was a bottom feeder in it's class. He paid $77,000 for a STS-V. I wanted a 4 door sedan that would beat all other cars in it's class and do it for thousands less. I bought a CTS-V. My neighbor makes me giggle."

Are you really that emotionally bothered by the STS-V to post that in your Sig on a Caddy message board? :hmm:

 

[2005V]

Man, these are dangerous comparisons to start on.... Do you know what I can do with a 93 camaro and $10k? For $13,000 total I can blow the doors off of your $50k Caddy....

I know that's not what you're saying, but comparing cheaper moded cars to more expensive stock ones can turn really silly fast!

You make a very valid point. I think what it comes down to is that there are two distinct demographics at work here with respect to the potential buyers of these vehicles. I, like may other CTS-V owners, bought the car for its performance in a 4 door platform. When this type of buyer looks at the STS-V, they will invariably look at the respective performance numbers of each vehicle since that is what brought them to the dealership in the first place. Looking at it from that perspective alone, I find it hard to justify the additional cost of the STS-V. The economics involved was the reason for my comparison of a modded CTS-V v. a stock STS-V.

Nick

 

[Vrocks]

Tony,
The CTS-V owners are making a lot of valid points. I'd guess the vast majority of CTS-V owners would place several cars ahead of the STS-V for their car of choice. We're more M3 than M5 (previous generations, the new M5 is a beast) / Ferrari over a Masserati / Porsche GT2 or GT3 instead of the Turbo. Basically, we want the:
- 6spd manual
- Firm suspension
- Great brakes
- Great chassis feel
- Aggresive 6, 8, 10, or 12 cylinder engines

I could have leased an XLR or an STS but I chose to lease another CTS-V. I really don't care about Blue tooth, auto wipers (I don't even use the auto headlights feature in my V), or cooled seats, all I wanted was a car that I look forward to driving.

 

[CVP33]

Crozier and Tony,

Once again, I don't own a Caddy. Never wanted to and don't now. I own a 4 door Corvette. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

As for emotionally bothered. Nah, that will be the poor bastard who plunks down $77K for an STS-V.

As for Car and Driver I could care less what the say about NVH. I put an X-pipe on my V to make it louder and faster. Headers and CAI for the same. I know it's impossible for non-V owners to understand but we don't embrace the Cadillac nameplate, we don't aspire to own a quiet and subtle car. Many of us are sacrificing ride quality to make the car handle better and giving up quiet for more power.

A $77,000 dollar loser doesn't resonate with CTS-V owners and quite frankly isn't on ANY enthusiasts radar that I've talked to. We find it impossible to understand why someone would spend $27,000 to be worst in class and slower. It just doesn't make sense to a CTS-V owner.

Think of it this way. How many giant foam fingers do you see at football games with 3 fingers raised. Who in the hell would brag about being 3rd?

 

[The Tony Show]

I agree with you 100% VRocks, and I love the hell out of the CTS-V. I just wish some people could see beyond their own desires and understand that there are people on the flip side of the coin who will accept a little body roll and sacrifice .05g lateral grip in favor of a 469hp, automatic transmission car that hauls ass, as well as cools theirs.

 

[CVP33]

Damnit! I forgot the condescending and internet tough guy smilies that I always add.

:bouncy:

Name calling. Got to love it.

 

[thebigjimsho]

Oh I'm not rich don't get me wrong. I paid for my ETC with my own money from a job. If my parents were rich and paid for everything, I'd be driving a CTS-V now and an STS-V asap. BTW, the STS-V will indeed outrun a CTS-V in a straight line (and although autox and road racing is fun, 1/4 mile is what I do.) It's like I said, STS-V > CTS-V in every way except aftermarket support (and price.)

Yep, New Mexico ranked 50th in the ranking of the smartest states. Guess who was 1st. Is there any non pre-production STS-Vs that have turned any 1/4 mile times? It is what you do. Hey, since it is the dumbed-down 2 pedal type, you should have a much easier time launching. But that's what you do. Why don't we see what happens with 2 production Vs first? I mean, that's what I'd do.

 

[The Tony Show]

I understand your opinion, but where is this #1 thing coming from? What great national car ranking system did I miss that proclaimed the CTS-V #1 in its class? You think it's #1? Awesome. Enjoy it. But it's one man's opinion. There's plenty of websites and magazines that would beg to differ. Not saying they're right or you're wrong............

And what's with #3? No one has proclaimed the STS-V #3 yet except you. And when it is tested, even if it is a few ticks behind the competition in speed, there will be other areas where it will be better. Let's let the first one get to a dealer or at least get tested by a magazine before condemning it.

-Oh, and before I finish:

It's not a 4-door Vette, it's a Cadillac with a Z06 motor. You won't find anyone on the Lotus Elise forums claiming that their car is a "lightweight Celica". Be proud of owning a Cadillac. I am.

 

[CVP33]

A couple of quick questions David.

1) Which vehicle do you currently terrorize the quarter mile with? The eldorado or the seville? BTW, when you tire of going in a straight line you will then know the joy of truly driving a performance vehicle vs. aiming.

2) If by ">" you mean larger than you are correct. If ">" means better than you must define better. Is the STS-V a better car for it's targeted market? I don't think so. Is it a better value? I don't think so.

The STS-V is a slightly larger rebadged CTS (yes CTS) with a S/C 4.4 liter. Where else do you think they got those lines? See one on the road and you have to look damned hard to confirm it's an STS coming vs. a CTS. AND it damn well better be faster because from where I'm sittin' that's all its got going for it. It's slower than ALL it's competitors and will sadly get be killed within 2 years after GM realizes it's mistake.

Marketing, pricing and positioning of the STS-V is so far off base as to be laughable. I haven't seen a blunder like this since the Aztek.

Big Jim,

I wouldn't look for any replies to direct questions. I'm still waiting for answers to this post.

I'd like the STS-V cheerleaders to help me with the following:

1) Do you agree that the STS-V is 1/4 mile stormer as stated by David? Or is it a road course warrior, allbeit 11 seconds slower than the CTS-V?

2) Do you feel that the $26,000 premium is warranted? Although it is cheaper than the M5 and E55.

3) Are you disappointed that the STS-V is slower than both the new M5 and E55? Or do you see this as a selling point?

4) Does it bother you that the STS and CTS look nearly identical to the untrained eye? And even for car enthusiasts it's a minimum of a double take?

5) If the goal of the STS-V is not to race and win 1/4 mile or road courses and it's OK to be bested by M5's and E55's why not just stay with the V8 STS and save the $12,000 bucks for something more practical?

I'd really like to hear from a true STS-V buyer. No more "if I had the money" or defenders of the faith or those with hurt feelings because some CTS-V owners won't tow the company line with regard to all Cadillac models. I'd like to know what the value equation of the STS-V buyer is. What are you looking for in a car, what do you hope to get out of the STS-V? You can PM me if you wish and take the conversation off-line.

I know somebody out there is as enthusiastic about the STS-V the way us early buyers of CTS-V's like Reed, Rick, Urby, Chris, Doug and others were. I'd like to hear from you.

 

[crowan]

Finally, don't claim your opinions as being truth. You said that the CTS-V "stomped" the S4, then why did Car and Driver magazine (Vol 50, #5) say that, "Although the CTS-V's value rated high, it fared worse in areas realted to refinement: driver comfort, ergonomics and engine noise, vibration and harshness. It was by far the noisiest inside at wide open throttle, prompting one tester to write that it came across as "the muscle car of the group", which in this case is a tepid accolade." The feelings of superiority you have for your V are the same as others will have for their STS-V, but for different reasons, and not everyone will agree.

Good Lord, you guys just don't get it. First of all, the V is a driving enthusiasts car. I wasn't drawn to the V for "refinement" and Lexus-like quiet in the cabin. I could care less if the ergonnomics could be improved with a telescoping steering wheel. I WANTED a 4 door muscle car, and Cadillac happened to have made one. If Buick had made the V, I would have been in a Buick deealership with a check in my hand. Car and Driver could not have paid the V a greater compliment as far as I was concerned. A snarling V-8, a six speed manual tranny, great handling, and the ability to put the smackdown on anything in its class, for less money. That is where the fun factor meets value!

The point being made about the STS-V is that, unlike the V, it falls far short of an attempt to lead from the front of its market competition. Instead, it doesn't measure up to the performance numbers of the other cars in its class. In fact, it brings up the rear which is a bad place to be for a new offering in a very competitive market niche. I am not a cheerleader for Cadillac and I am not going to pop a woody over the STS-V just because it rolls out of a Cadillac plant. Its a nice car, but for the money, it is no value. I cheer for enthusiasts' cars that try to vault to the head of the field not settle for 4th place.

Unfortunately, the opinions being offered by those singing the praises of the STS-V are coming from people who have no seat time in either car and have no appreciation for what the V's capabilities are beyond what they read in a car magazine. Drive one and you will no longer consider it to be a trim package for the CTS. It really is a 4 door Corvette.

 

[lawfive]

This is a fun thread. Steering dangerously near to ad hominim at times, but still funny.

Whomever said that we're talking about two different types of buyers got it right:

• CTS-V buyer: wants a serious engine and chassis with lots of go-fast and road feel. If there's a nice luxury car wrapped around the engine, so much the better, but digital ashtrays and automatic floor mats aren't really differentiators for him. This buyer would probably be in a Z06 if he didn't have to haul more than one other person around on a fairly regular basis.

• STS-V buyer: wants a quiet luxury car with a cushier ride. If it happens to have an engine, so much the better. This buyer would probably be in a Rolls if he truly had 'serious bank.'

There's no shame in buying an STS-V if that's your cup of tea (for sure, you won't be as likely to SPILL your cup of tea as you float your STS down the road). I can afford the STS-V (I have semi-serious bank) but like Chris, I'm more the four-door Corvette CTS-V kinda guy. I love doing my own shifting most of the time, except when I'm bogged down in traffic on the freeways, at which times I'd love to have the STS-V slushbox. (No, I take that back. It's not worth it. As I've said before, paddles are for recalcitrant children.)

Only time will tell, but it's possible that the STS-V does have one feature that we CTS-V owners would kill for: a bullet-proof differential.

 

[CVP33]

Only time will tell, but it's possible that the STS-V does have one feature that we CTS-V owners would kill for: a bullet-proof differential.

Ain't that the truth!

And for the record I'm truly trying to understand who the STS-V buyer is. What attracted them to the model? What are they looking for? What other models did they consider? Etc. Maybe it's about buying an American car. The only issue with that is if that is the only reason, than your first trip (or trips) to the dealer will have you second guessing your decision.

The only reason I can withstand the trips to my dealer is because the payoff comes everytime I drive the V. There is no other car I'd rather be driving.

And T.O., just an observation. As a member from December of 2004 with 107 posts, I noticed that 7.5% of your posts or 8 so far are in this thread alone. This has obviously struck a nerve with you. Are you an STS-V buyer? Just curious. Again trying to understand. :hmm:

 

[The Tony Show]

Whomever said that we're talking about two different types of buyers got it right:

Thank you! Someone finally heard me....

Good Lord, you guys just don't get it. First of all, the V is a driving enthusiasts car. I wasn't drawn to the V for "refinement" and Lexus-like quiet in the cabin. I could care less if the ergonnomics could be improved with a telescoping steering wheel.

That comment was in regards to an earlier post in which someone said that the CTS-V was almost as much of a luxury car as the STS-V. You and I are actually agreeing, but the conversation has become a little muddled.....

The reason for my low post count is simple: I normally lurk in threads but refrain from commenting because the original discussion gets lost to bickering. (*ahem*) It doesn't matter if it's Miata.net, rx8club, whatever. Everyone knows for a fact that their car is better than everyone else's. I got involved in this discussion because I don't think a lot of people here are giving the STS-V a fair shake, and it irked me.

Yes, I'm an STS-V buyer. I've owned mostly sport coupes until the last few years when I built a Miata for SCCA competition. That allows me to get my track days in, while being able to move into a different consideration set of vehicles for my daily driver, since it no longer needs to see double duty on the street and track.

I don't care if the STS-V is a few 10ths slower than an M5 or E55. I'm not taking it drag racing. I think Mercedes and BMW are the most overrated pieces of crap on the road, as evidenced by their abysmal customer satisfaction ratings. Any company that has to pledge to remove several hundred electronic features from a car because of glitches is NOT making a good product.

I also don't care if the CTS-V is faster around a track (which it is). I'm not racing any CTS-Vs, and if I did from a stoplight, I'd probably win unless I was up against one of the 2 people who can launch that car without wheel hop. I've driven a CTS-V about 40 times, including on a track, and it's a great enthusiast muscle car with some luxury.

Just as you CTS-V guys say, you really can't understand until you have one. The little things like never fishing my key out of my pocket to get in and having the car lock behind me automatically are great. I've repurchased all my favorite CD's in 5.1, because the STS's sound system is the best I've ever heard. And dammit, when I spend Cadillac money for a car, I want to look around the interior and feel like I'm in a Cadillac. Being able to mash the gas and do 60 in less than 5 seconds with no wheel hop, shifting or effort is the icing on the cake.

Let me put it another way: The STS-V is a luxury car 24/7, but when you floor it, it's suddenly, almost magically bad ass. You can even shift if you want to.

The CTS-V on the other hand, is a muscle car 24/7, but when you drive it gently, it doesn't magically turn into a luxury car. It's still loud, it still rides firm, and you still have to shift it. Not that that's bad, but that's just the way it is.

Hopefully, this sheds some light on why I'm buying this "loser" car.

 

[CVP33]

Thank you! Someone finally heard me....




That comment was in regards to an earlier post in which someone said that the CTS-V was almost as much of a luxury car as the STS-V. You and I are actually agreeing, but the conversation has become a little muddled.....

The reason for my low post count is simple: I normally lurk in threads but refrain from commenting because the original discussion gets lost to bickering. (*ahem*) It doesn't matter if it's Miata.net, rx8club, whatever. Everyone knows for a fact that their car is better than everyone else's. I got involved in this discussion because I don't think a lot of people here are giving the STS-V a fair shake, and it irked me.

Yes, I'm an STS-V buyer. I've owned mostly sport coupes until the last few years when I built a Miata for SCCA competition. That allows me to get my track days in, while being able to move into a different consideration set of vehicles for my daily driver, since it no longer needs to see double duty on the street and track.

I don't care if the STS-V is a few 10ths slower than an M5 or E55. I'm not taking it drag racing. I think Mercedes and BMW are the most overrated pieces of crap on the road, as evidenced by their abysmal customer satisfaction ratings. Any company that has to pledge to remove several hundred electronic features from a car because of glitches is NOT making a good product.

I also don't care if the CTS-V is faster around a track (which it is). I'm not racing any CTS-Vs, and if I did from a stoplight, I'd probably win unless I was up against one of the 2 people who can launch that car without wheel hop. I've driven a CTS-V about 40 times, including on a track, and it's a great enthusiast muscle car with some luxury.

Just as you CTS-V guys say, you really can't understand until you have one. The little things like never fishing my key out of my pocket to get in and having the car lock behind me automatically are great. I've repurchased all my favorite CD's in 5.1, because the STS's sound system is the best I've ever heard. And dammit, when I spend Cadillac money for a car, I want to look around the interior and feel like I'm in a Cadillac. Being able to mash the gas and do 60 in less than 5 seconds with no wheel hop, shifting or effort is the icing on the cake.

Let me put it another way: The STS-V is a luxury car 24/7, but when you floor it, it's suddenly, almost magically bad ass. You can even shift if you want to.

The CTS-V on the other hand, is a muscle car 24/7, but when you drive it gently, it doesn't magically turn into a luxury car. It's still loud, it still rides firm, and you still have to shift it. Not that that's bad, but that's just the way it is.

Hopefully, this sheds some light on why I'm buying this car.

Great post. We've found more common ground here than you may have guessed. And I left out the one thing I didn't agree with.

 

[davesdeville]

A couple of quick questions David.

1) Which vehicle do you currently terrorize the quarter mile with? The eldorado or the seville? BTW, when you tire of going in a straight line you will then know the joy of truly driving a performance vehicle vs. aiming.

2) If by ">" you mean larger than you are correct. If ">" means better than you must define better. Is the STS-V a better car for it's targeted market? I don't think so. Is it a better value? I don't think so.

The STS-V is a slightly larger rebadged CTS (yes CTS) with a S/C 4.4 liter. Where else do you think they got those lines? See one on the road and you have to look damned hard to confirm it's an STS coming vs. a CTS. AND it damn well better be faster because from where I'm sittin' that's all its got going for it. It's slower than ALL it's competitors and will sadly get be killed within 2 years after GM realizes it's mistake.

Marketing, pricing and positioning of the STS-V is so far off base as to be laughable. I haven't seen a blunder like this since the Aztek.

1. I don't have a Seville, read my name. I run my ETC at the track once in awhille. Like I said, going fast in a curvy line, "driving" as you call it, is fun. I autocrossed my ETC last Friday. I'll post the video of it tomorrow in the Kills/Racing video section. You can harass me there if you wish to talk about what I drive, rather than in the STS-V forum which neither of us drive.

2. The STS-V, stock for stock, is a better car than the CTS-V in my eyes. And I'm sure a few thousand people who have the cash will agree with me.

The CTS was the first car with the new art&science styling. The SRX, DTS, Escalade, STS, hell even BLS have similar styling. So you're saying they're all CTS clones?

Yep, New Mexico ranked 50th in the ranking of the smartest states. Guess who was 1st. Is there any non pre-production STS-Vs that have turned any 1/4 mile times? It is what you do. Hey, since it is the dumbed-down 2 pedal type, you should have a much easier time launching. But that's what you do. Why don't we see what happens with 2 production Vs first? I mean, that's what I'd do.

Yeah, I live in NM so I must be stupid. Right I haven't seen a production STS-V run the 1/4 but I would bet money it will beat a CTS-V. Especially when you blow your rear all over the track. Maybe try some tact next time you post in here.

Big Jim,

I wouldn't look for any replies to direct questions. I'm still waiting for answers to this post.

I'd like the STS-V cheerleaders to help me with the following:

1) Do you agree that the STS-V is 1/4 mile stormer as stated by David? Or is it a road course warrior, allbeit 11 seconds slower than the CTS-V?

2) Do you feel that the $26,000 premium is warranted? Although it is cheaper than the M5 and E55.

3) Are you disappointed that the STS-V is slower than both the new M5 and E55? Or do you see this as a selling point?

4) Does it bother you that the STS and CTS look nearly identical to the untrained eye? And even for car enthusiasts it's a minimum of a double take?

5) If the goal of the STS-V is not to race and win 1/4 mile or road courses and it's OK to be bested by M5's and E55's why not just stay with the V8 STS and save the $12,000 bucks for something more practical?

I'd really like to hear from a true STS-V buyer. No more "if I had the money" or defenders of the faith or those with hurt feelings because some CTS-V owners won't tow the company line with regard to all Cadillac models. I'd like to know what the value equation of the STS-V buyer is. What are you looking for in a car, what do you hope to get out of the STS-V? You can PM me if you wish and take the conversation off-line.

I know somebody out there is as enthusiastic about the STS-V the way us early buyers of CTS-V's like Reed, Rick, Urby, Chris, Doug and others were. I'd like to hear from you.

Let me try this one.

1. For a big luxury car it is indeed a road course warrior. And like I said, the STS-V will finish the 1/4 quicker than the CTS-V stock for stock.

2. Is the CTS-V really worth the price when you could pick up a GTO and save yourself damn near $20k? Yeah? Well for similar reasons plenty of people should think the STS-V is worth the extra.

3. But I thought you CTS guys were arguing that we hadn't seen any real performance numbers from the STS-V? Jim was. Oh, I get it, it only matters if the STS-V is slower than an E55 and M5 but not if it's faster than your precious CTS.

4. The driver sure as hell can tell the difference. That's what counts because that's who pays. I learned to tell them apart the first week the STS was out. Not my fault you can't see.

5. See #1.

You're not just "not towing the line," you're talking shit about the car because you can't see past your CTS-V.

You don't understand the fact that the STS-V isn't designed to be an enthusiast car like the CTS-V is. If it were, it would have a Chevy motor and a manual. You're an enthusiast so you think it's a piece of crap. I'm an enthusiast but I think it's more practical to have a stock daily and a fast weekend car so I can appreciate the refinement of the STS-V.