[Vrocks]

Denial is very costly in business.
GM's refusal to put real money into R&D and produce cars equivalent to Toyota, Honda, and now Chrysler has cost it market share. Now Nissan is going after the truck market with a real contender.
GM will have to make better product or perish.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/06/A01-50668.htm

You know it's funny, I can't tell you how many times people bring their new Lexus, MB or BMW into my Cadillac dealer with nothing but horror stories. Or like some of the people in the V forum would have you believe the rear diff is the worst in the history of man kind. Not ONE, 1 has come in for a repair at my dealer, and as I've said before, there's some serious abuse going on that shows up in other areas when you really look at a V with a blown diff.

It's a perception thing, not reality. I might even be off with my criticism of the 300's quality (still hate the design) and until that changes the "uninformed" buyer will go with a foreign car.

 

[Vrocks]

I'd also like to say one more thing. I actually feel that a lot of people love this domestic sales decline, and it's sick. I get the sense that people look at the paper or watch the news to see "how much did their sales slide this quarter, or did they break the record for money lost in 1 year" :crowded: .

I've been in nearly every tier 1 manufacturers car / truck and I have to say these "big flaws in GM products" are bs. Every BMW had several problems, MB had transmission problems, Toyotas :yawn: but reliable, hondas.. they're just small cars with nothing special, all previous gen Chrysler products were garbage, Fords weren't good either, and now GM.... I personally have owned 5 and shared 1 GM vehicle and here's my list of problems (over 10+ years):

- 1st car; 0 problems
- 2nd car; 0 problems
- 3rd car; 1 problem [ ignition switch assembly failed ]
- 4th car; 1 problem [ crank pulley ]
- 5th car; 0 problems
- 6th car; 1 problem [ squeak in dash, fixed in 30 minutes ]

They all drove as well if not better than a competitvely priced foreign car or truck.

The only time I'd look outside of GM is for ultra high performance vehicles.

 

[CaddyGeek]

FOR CTS-V OWNERS TO RESPOND TO (Hopefully)

All right kids... i've had few :alchi: before and during the reading of page 5 until now so maybe i missed the point here: certain people (my die-hard cts-v peepz) want to make it clear that, in their opinion, buying an sts-v is... what? (CTS-V owners take me literally or don't bother to respond) Let's see:

A bad investment? For the same $ or less, what other name plate offers a better overall sedan? (If anyone says an SRT-8 you shall be banished to hemi-hell where they play the dukes of hazard theme song 24-7 because i said so... screw mopar you drive a gm performance product and the same arguements ring true for your cars)

Stupid? Cuzzz-yah couldah saved money and bought a cts-v? What does this mean guys? Are you saying that gm missed the mark? Which mark... the M5, the E55? From all I've seen (page 5 until now) the issue appears to be why buy a sts-v over a cts-v? What is your real agenda fellahs? Boycott the sts-v? Why? To increase cts-v sales? To expose the sts-v as a failure because it can't out corner or accelerate the M5? Well, is the Jaguar XKR coupe (90K) a failure because it gets it's doors sucked off by an M6? Would the hard-drive space that was used to design the Audi A8 LW12 (108K) have been put to better use if it contained streetfire.*** footage of a C6 Z06 pulling 3 lengths on a Lambo? The answer is no. By posting in this thread you want people to avoid buying an sts-v sooooooo... um, so what? It doesn't sell? That gm sells less sts-vs sooooooo... they redesign the car a year after it was introduced? Did gm redesign your cars in it's 2nd year even after 100s of replaced differentials? Even now, in it's third model year, the cts-v hops on hard launches... all gm did was upgrade the diff. THE PROBLEM WASN'T FIXED.

Warn others against making the same mistake you guys did? Is this it? Warn others away from buying a cadillac built by the same gm executives that failed to address short falls with the cts-v? I don't think so, because you all seem to put together one hell of arguement for the cts-v inspite of it's flaws.

More power at the rear wheels, period? If we all want more power, regardless of price, in the sts-v then start another thread for the SAE 100th Anniversary Car exclaiming it's virtues. Then in that thread (those who talk about being able to OWN an $80K car) people can step up and proclaim, "GM! Had you built this car, we would already be on the list."

If anyone disagrees with me, so be it. This thread and it's arguements back and forth lead to no where, in my humble opinion.

 

[MCaesar]

I'd also like to say one more thing. I actually feel that a lot of people love this domestic sales decline, and it's sick. I get the sense that people look at the paper or watch the news to see "how much did their sales slide this quarter, or did they break the record for money lost in 1 year" :crowded: .

I've been in nearly every tier 1 manufacturers car / truck and I have to say these "big flaws in GM products" are bs. Every BMW had several problems, MB had transmission problems, Toyotas :yawn: but reliable, hondas.. they're just small cars with nothing special, all previous gen Chrysler products were garbage, Fords weren't good either, and now GM.... I personally have owned 5 and shared 1 GM vehicle and here's my list of problems (over 10+ years):

- 1st car; 0 problems
- 2nd car; 0 problems
- 3rd car; 1 problem [ ignition switch assembly failed ]
- 4th car; 1 problem [ crank pulley ]
- 5th car; 0 problems
- 6th car; 1 problem [ squeak in dash, fixed in 30 minutes ]

They all drove as well if not better than a competitvely priced foreign car or truck.

The only time I'd look outside of GM is for ultra high performance vehicles.

Well, I actually agree with a lot of your points.

1. American cars are far more reliable than they get credit for. A lot of what goes wrong with them is minor stuff like a trim piece falling off. The Japanese don't get that stuff. But the core of the car, the engine and trans, are at least as reliable as foreign cars. My Mustang 5.0 ran for 188,000 miles when I traded it in and the engine was good as new. My Impala SS had 230,000 miles when I sold it for $6,000 and the new owner has already put 30,000 more miles on it. It is a myth that American cars aren't durable.

2. Repair cost - every repair or maintence was half the cost of a BMW repair.

3. Chryslers of the 60s were very reliable. We have several 440s that lasted a decade with no problems. The Chryslers from Lido's K car forward were JUNK when it comes to repairs. So far, the new Mercedes-Chryslers have gotten good reviews for their quality of workmanship. I know that MB has seen its reliability rating drop in recent years but that was mostly due to the M Class and not the E Class which the 300/Mag/Charger are based upon.

4. The flaws in the GM products are not reliablity flaws but bad product design. Their mainstream sedans have boring styling with antiquated front wheel drive platforms. That doesn't cut it any more. The new Impala SS is actually faster than the neo-classic 94-96 series but almost no one will care because it is plain looking and FWD.

Why do you think Chrysler sales are rising and GM is in the toilet?

Bad car design

 

[MCaesar]

Are you saying that gm missed the mark? Which mark... the M5, the E55?

BINGO

The car is supposed to be GM's ultimate performance sedan and they bring it to market and it is not competive with its two main competitors.

THAT is what is stupid, not people giving honest opinions where GM screwed up.

When they do something great they get pages of praise. When GM does something stupid they get pages of recommendations of what should be done better.

In case you hadn't noticed, this is an OPINION board. That means each person gives his/her honest assessment. It doesn't mean any one person is "right" or wrong. But we don't sugar coat crap either.

 

[harryctsv]

I'd also like to say one more thing. I actually feel that a lot of people love this domestic sales decline, and it's sick. I get the sense that people look at the paper or watch the news to see "how much did their sales slide this quarter, or did they break the record for money lost in 1 year" :crowded: .

I've been in nearly every tier 1 manufacturers car / truck and I have to say these "big flaws in GM products" are bs. Every BMW had several problems, MB had transmission problems, Toyotas :yawn: but reliable, hondas.. they're just small cars with nothing special, all previous gen Chrysler products were garbage, Fords weren't good either, and now GM.... I personally have owned 5 and shared 1 GM vehicle and here's my list of problems (over 10+ years):

- 1st car; 0 problems
- 2nd car; 0 problems
- 3rd car; 1 problem [ ignition switch assembly failed ]
- 4th car; 1 problem [ crank pulley ]
- 5th car; 0 problems
- 6th car; 1 problem [ squeak in dash, fixed in 30 minutes ]

They all drove as well if not better than a competitvely priced foreign car or truck.

The only time I'd look outside of GM is for ultra high performance vehicles.

:thumbsup: you are right Vrocks!!!!
I´m a german and since 1971 we`ve had at least one american car in our family.
1. 71 Camaro 350 4 on the floor - no problems
2. 76 Trans Am 6.6 - no problems
3. 77 Bonneville - no problems
4. 81 Olds 98 - no problems
5. 85 Bonneville (3.8 fwd) - transmission - new
6. 87 Le Sabre (3.8 fwd) - transmission - new
7. 88 Bonneville SSE ( 3.8 fwd) - transmisssion
well, the transmissions was not made for fast Autobahn-drives
8. 89 Fleetwood - no problems
9. 91 Fleetwood Sixty Special - no problems
10. 90 Fleetwood - no problems
11. 92 Eldorado - no problems
12. 93 STS - no problems
13. 95 DeVille Concours - no problems
14. 95 Fleetwood Brougham - no problems
15. 95 Eldorado - no problems
16. 98 Vette - no problems
17. 00 DTS - no problems
18. 01 Vette vert - no problems
19. 02 Vette vert 6 sp - no problems
20. 04 XLR - no problems

and all this cars are driven hard and from the 80s on they even get better gas mileage than comparable european cars. My next one will be a V, just waiting for export models!

Harry

 

[CaddyGeek]

Wow... I guess I sort of went over board:cookoo:

I need to limit my posting after x-mas parties :alchi:

 

[MacOSR]

FOR CTS-V OWNERS TO RESPOND TO (Hopefully)
All right kids... i've had few :alchi: before and during the reading of page 5 until now so maybe i missed the point here: certain people (my die-hard cts-v peepz) want to make it clear that, in their opinion, buying an sts-v is... what? (CTS-V owners take me literally or don't bother to respond) Let's see:
A bad investment? For the same $ or less, what other name plate offers a better overall sedan? (If anyone says an SRT-8 you shall be banished to hemi-hell where they play the dukes of hazard theme song 24-7 because i said so... screw mopar you drive a gm performance product and the same arguements ring true for your cars)
Stupid? Cuzzz-yah couldah saved money and bought a cts-v? What does this mean guys? Are you saying that gm missed the mark? Which mark... the M5, the E55? From all I've seen (page 5 until now) the issue appears to be why buy a sts-v over a cts-v? What is your real agenda fellahs? Boycott the sts-v? Why? To increase cts-v sales? To expose the sts-v as a failure because it can't out corner or accelerate the M5? Well, is the Jaguar XKR coupe (90K) a failure because it gets it's doors sucked off by an M6? Would the hard-drive space that was used to design the Audi A8 LW12 (108K) have been put to better use if it contained streetfire.*** footage of a C6 Z06 pulling 3 lengths on a Lambo? The answer is no. By posting in this thread you want people to avoid buying an sts-v sooooooo... um, so what? It doesn't sell? That gm sells less sts-vs sooooooo... they redesign the car a year after it was introduced? Did gm redesign your cars in it's 2nd year even after 100s of replaced differentials? Even now, in it's third model year, the cts-v hops on hard launches... all gm did was upgrade the diff. THE PROBLEM WASN'T FIXED.
Warn others against making the same mistake you guys did? Is this it? Warn others away from buying a cadillac built by the same gm executives that failed to address short falls with the cts-v? I don't think so, because you all seem to put together one hell of arguement for the cts-v inspite of it's flaws.
More power at the rear wheels, period? If we all want more power, regardless of price, in the sts-v then start another thread for the SAE 100th Anniversary Car exclaiming it's virtues. Then in that thread (those who talk about being able to OWN an $80K car) people can step up and proclaim, "GM! Had you built this car, we would already be on the list."
If anyone disagrees with me, so be it. This thread and it's arguements back and forth lead to no where, in my humble opinion.

Good post.

The primary reason I posted in this forum is to voice my opinion as to what GM was doing wrong. I owned the first CTS-V in our area back in 2004 and was an early adopter of Cadillac's V series.

Why did I choose to share my thoughts...
1) I was in the market for the STS-V or the M5 (didn't like the Merc)
2) I decided to purchase an M5 over the STS-V
3) GM is failing at the service level within Cadillac. (Even if the STS-V was faster then the M5 I probably wouldn't have purchased it due to service experience with CTS-V's)
4) What I consider to be major problems with the CTS-V (rear end) that have gone unadressed.
5) GM giving huge discounts HAS drastically hurt resale value.

By no means am I trying to pursuade anyone to NOT purchase an STS-V. I would suspect the target buyer at this point is a truly loyal GM customer that wants a large performance luxury sedan. (Loyal the key word.)

Unfortunately (for GM) I am someone that was loyal for many years and due to recent experiences decided to go other routes for my vehicles. The statistics are showing that I am not alone in this move. (6 new GM vehicles in 13 years)

I have not seen the STS-V yet but I have seen the STS and there is no comparison IMHO to the M5. GM could have EASILY put the LS7 in the STS-V and SHOULD have!

I am 110% happy that I have a new M5 in my garage instead of an STS-V. I am keeping my CTS-V as my winter car for now and will unload it after I decide what I want to replace it with (BMW X5 maybe).

 

[MacOSR]

I'd also like to say one more thing. I actually feel that a lot of people love this domestic sales decline, and it's sick. I get the sense that people look at the paper or watch the news to see "how much did their sales slide this quarter, or did they break the record for money lost in 1 year" :crowded: .
I've been in nearly every tier 1 manufacturers car / truck and I have to say these "big flaws in GM products" are bs. Every BMW had several problems, MB had transmission problems, Toyotas :yawn: but reliable, hondas.. they're just small cars with nothing special, all previous gen Chrysler products were garbage, Fords weren't good either, and now GM.... I personally have owned 5 and shared 1 GM vehicle and here's my list of problems (over 10+ years):
- 1st car; 0 problems
- 2nd car; 0 problems
- 3rd car; 1 problem [ ignition switch assembly failed ]
- 4th car; 1 problem [ crank pulley ]
- 5th car; 0 problems
- 6th car; 1 problem [ squeak in dash, fixed in 30 minutes ]
They all drove as well if not better than a competitvely priced foreign car or truck.
The only time I'd look outside of GM is for ultra high performance vehicles.

I tend to agree with you. I am really disappointed in GM's sales trends and managment decisions. GM's woes are not good for us. GM has done it to themselves.

I also had very few problems with previous GM vehicles. However, here are my problems with the CTS-V...

- A rear end that is not designed to handle the power output from the factory that fails (go figure).
- A tranny that grinds going into 5th only during winter. I was told that GM told my dealer this is normal and they won't do anything. I have had three GM 6-sp vehicles and never had problems like this.
- EXTREME wheel hop that is actually hazardous in some situations.
- Interior parts that fall off all on their own. Some CTS-V owners have been told that it must be something they are doing and they won't warranty it any more. Mine was fixed without question.
- A rear end that wines like you would not believe.
- A rattaling sunroof (going back in again to be fixed)

EVERY car will have issues, problems and warranties. The real issue is how they are dealt with.

 

[MCaesar]

I tend to agree with you. I am really disappointed in GM's sales trends and managment decisions. GM's woes are not good for us. GM has done it to themselves.

I also had very few problems with previous GM vehicles. However, here are my problems with the CTS-V...

- A rear end that is not designed to handle the power output from the factory that fails (go figure).
- A tranny that grinds going into 5th only during winter. I was told that GM told my dealer this is normal and they won't do anything. I have had three GM 6-sp vehicles and never had problems like this.
- EXTREME wheel hop that is actually hazardous in some situations.
- Interior parts that fall off all on their own. Some CTS-V owners have been told that it must be something they are doing and they won't warranty it any more. Mine was fixed without question.
- A rear end that wines like you would not believe.
- A rattaling sunroof (going back in again to be fixed)

EVERY car will have issues, problems and warranties. The real issue is how they are dealt with.

Exactly

I HATE that GM sales suck.

I hate even more the crap product they put out for the mainstream (read Road & Track's review of the Grand Prix GXP this month). I hate that when they finally do something right, the CTS-V, they blow it with a poor rear end that they refuse to correct.

I really hate that Toyota is now the #1 manufacturer in the world.

I hate that Mercedes had to buy Chrysler before they would start making good cars again.

I hate that Ford has completely lost their way - except for the Mustang.

The Big 3 were running a mile race against foreign car companies. They were almost a lap up with two to go and got caught.

Most of all, I am tired of GM trying cheap marketing ploys instead of building the best cars on the planet.

 

[VELOSE]

Most of all, I am tired of GM trying cheap marketing ploys instead of building the best cars on the planet.

Werd, preach on brotha....:highfive:

 

[MCaesar]

the last thing I will say is

GM has the tools to build the best cars in the world - bar none.

Do it

Merry Christmas everyone

 

[rayainsw]

“I HATE that GM sales suck.

I hate even more the crap product they put out for the mainstream (read Road & Track's review of the Grand Prix GXP this month).”

Well – I happen to currently drive a GXP.

Thus, I admit that I just ** MIGHT ** be a bit biased.

That said, I enjoy the GXP’s dynamics tremendously every chance I have to drive it. The C+D test (Oct. 2005) was actually one of the most positive reviews of a GM sedan that I have read from them in quite some time. (Yes, they print positive reviews of Corvettes occasionally.) The R&T test was lukewarm at best, I’d agree. But their priorities are not always the same as mine.

This GXP (and the STS-v, if the actual vehicle matches the published information and impressions that I have seen so far) actually gives me hope that GM (my last 3 cars were not GM) does have the both the vision and the ability to make (at least a few) interesting cars. For me, there are certainly a few items that I would change, or ‘fix’, if I were designing & building a car just for me – but the positive and enjoyable aspects (particularly at the price – approx. $27K during the ‘Employee Pricing for Everyone’ event in June) so far outweigh any annoyances that I find this one of the most pleasant overall cars to drive that I have had in some time. And my last 3 sedans (2 were Lincolns) had MSRPs much higher (and actual transaction prices MUCH higher) than my GXP.

I am not likely to spend $77K for an STS-v soon. But that has more to do with my current income level than anything specifically I hold against the vehicle. And if I won a large lottery anytime soon, I’d want to at least test drive one. What I have read so far (tests & previews) suggests that I might prefer an STS-v to either the M5 or the MB to which it has been compared.

- Ray
Not willing to dedicate that much of my disposable income to a car – right now .

 

[MCaesar]

I just can't get past the front wheel drive and torque steer.

 

[MCaesar]

I did see a STS-V in person and I absolutely love the look of the car!

Wow, I was impressed. I also am reading how it rides much better than the CLS55 of M5 and I am starting to think it might not be that bad after all!

Man, if they had of put an LS7 in there it would be a done deal.

 

[rayainsw]

“I just can't get past the front wheel drive and torque steer.”

I certainly do respect that attitude.

My past 3 sedans were RWD, AWD and RWD. Each with an OHC 8 cylinder motor and a 5 speed ‘manumatic’ trans.

For me, this GXP is actually more fun than any of them. FWD, OHV V8, 4 speed ‘manumatic’ and all . . . (There are certainly some other aspects where the GXP does not equal some of these prior sedans, but overall, this a real joy to drive.)

The FWD, even dealing with more peak Torque (and even more torque at 2000, 3000, 4000 and 5000 RPM) than the current STS LH2 version of the Northstar, is rarely even apparent – and has never been a problem for me in over 8,000 miles. (This is the non-supercharged version of the VVT Northstar, NOT the supercharged version used in the STS-v, obviously.)

The V8 (with DoD) posts an EPA highway rating of 27. And when driven at EPA limited speeds, will achieve that fuel mileage. And it sounds wonderful. And the GXP is actually quicker in the Quarter Mile than the STSs in both C+D tests.

[[ Again, no- I am not suggesting that the GXP is an STS competitor – for several reasons, it clearly is not. But I happen to think that it is very, very good at what it sets out to be! ]]

The GXP’s 4 speed TAPShift actually works very well – and with all that lovely Torque available, at most any RPM – it does not feel (to me) like it ** needs ** a 5 or 6 speed trans. Though I’d likely enjoy playing with one, if offered . .

And for an actual transaction price ($33K MSRP) of $27K, it stuck (and still strikes) me as a screaming bargain. OK, a rumbling bargain . .

I am still not convinced that the STS (‘v’ or ‘regular’) is priced appropriately. I did seriously look at a couple of STSs during the aforementioned “Employee Pricing” event. I consider the STS a good effort, I am just [ edit = ] not convinced that they are actually worth the current transaction price.

And $77K for the STS-v strikes me as rather a stretch.

But that’s just my opinion.

And in late February (according to the Internet Sales guy at my local dealer) I’ll be able to drive an STS-v. And perhaps I will adjust my opinion.
- Ray
Doing my bit to help GM’s sales along, just not Caddy’s – today . . .

 

[MCaesar]

The GXP is more fun than any of them?

What were those cars?!

I drove the GXP's cousin, the Impala SS, and it was not even as fun to drive as a used 325i

 

[MacOSR]

I did see a STS-V in person and I absolutely love the look of the car! Wow, I was impressed. I also am reading how it rides much better than the CLS55 of M5 and I am starting to think it might not be that bad after all! Man, if they had of put an LS7 in there it would be a done deal.

The looks are impressive.

After putting over 500 miles on my M5 I can attest that the ride would be softer in the STS-V most likely. However the M5 handling is VERY nice. The M5 is about the same as the CTS-V with run-flats as far as harshness in ride. The big difference between the M5 and the CTS-V is I hear much less road noise in the M5. I would be hard-pressed to go to an STS-V after having the M5. Performance differences aside the M5 interior is very luxurious.

I will stop by my Caddy dealer this weekend and see if they got an STS-V in yet. I am anxious to see the interior and ergonomics.

 

[rayainsw]

So - I wonder if the STS-v will have the MSRP reduced????

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/01/10/gm_pricing/index.html