Here's what I think after driving a few CTS's and STS's:Tony Orlando said:
The CTS is the drivers car. It handles and feels better than the STS.
The STS is the luxury car. All of the new technologies with a quiet and smooth ride.
STS-V Pricing is $77K!!!
pricing just announced.
XLR-V is $100K
So much for value pricing.
Caddy really dropped the ball on pricing the new V's.
XLR-V is $100K
So much for value pricing.
Caddy really dropped the ball on pricing the new V's.
1 - 9 of 199 Posts
The CTS is the drivers car. It handles and feels better than the STS.
The STS is the luxury car. All of the new technologies with a quiet and smooth ride.
Tony,
The CTS-V owners are making a lot of valid points. I'd guess the vast majority of CTS-V owners would place several cars ahead of the STS-V for their car of choice. We're more M3 than M5 (previous generations, the new M5 is a beast) / Ferrari over a Masserati / Porsche GT2 or GT3 instead of the Turbo. Basically, we want the:
- 6spd manual
- Firm suspension
- Great brakes
- Great chassis feel
- Aggresive 6, 8, 10, or 12 cylinder engines
I could have leased an XLR or an STS but I chose to lease another CTS-V. I really don't care about Blue tooth, auto wipers (I don't even use the auto headlights feature in my V), or cooled seats, all I wanted was a car that I look forward to driving.
The CTS-V owners are making a lot of valid points. I'd guess the vast majority of CTS-V owners would place several cars ahead of the STS-V for their car of choice. We're more M3 than M5 (previous generations, the new M5 is a beast) / Ferrari over a Masserati / Porsche GT2 or GT3 instead of the Turbo. Basically, we want the:
- 6spd manual
- Firm suspension
- Great brakes
- Great chassis feel
- Aggresive 6, 8, 10, or 12 cylinder engines
I could have leased an XLR or an STS but I chose to lease another CTS-V. I really don't care about Blue tooth, auto wipers (I don't even use the auto headlights feature in my V), or cooled seats, all I wanted was a car that I look forward to driving.
So you're saying Toyota, MB and BMW don't release their cars to soon? Prove it. Eyeryone has recalls and runing changes, yes, even Toyota.MCaesar said:You make some excellent points. GM will not truly be a world class organization until they stop bringing cars to market before they are ready. You can run off an almost endless list of cars they brought to market before they were ready (either in design like the CTS-V or engine like the GTO and SSR). Then they spend the next few years getting it right but by then they have killed the image of the car.
As for Toyotas, they are very refined cars but most of them have no soul. They feel like very good appliances. That is fine for Corollas and Camrys but not for luxury or performance cars.
Actually, as China develops GM is building up their presence, and we know the Chineses dislike the Japanese so I doubt Toyota or Lexus will be very popular.... China won't block american manufacturing, just like we don't block their stuff. If they did... WWIII (The Taiwan issue could get ugly as well).MacOSR said:Agreed. GM should be very concerned about China IMHO. Give China a few years and they will be formidable to contend against. Every organization has it's problems. However, you have a problem organization when it doesn't operate with the mentality of "do what is right for the customer."
GM should also watch for Toyota vehicles being compared to their luxury cars/suvs. Go compare a Toyota Sequoia Limited with second row captains seating and wood trim. You will walk away realizing about the only things missing are dual climate zone and not as much HP in the Toyota. However, you get 120v outlet in the Sequoia, save $15,000, and it feels more solid.
The union deals aren't helping.... Their products are getting better, don't you see that?MCaesar said:GM has a lot more issues than any other big company. Why has their market share fallen every year? The stupid leaders of GM thinks it comes down to cost containment and marketing.
No, stupid (GM, not you) it the PRODUCT!!!
Until they understand that you
1. Can't bring cars to market before all the refinement is complete
2. You can't offer warmed over Chevys as Pontiacs
3. You must be the LEADERS in car design, not the follower
4. Quality is life and death
until then, they will suck wind.
1) Actually I've seen the abuse that some of the V's were put through in order for a diff to fail. Some people can't drive and other's drive like jackasses.MacOSR said:I refuse to purchase another GM vehicle right now. Why?
1) The problems I have had and others have had with their CTS-V's. (GM can't be shocked we are having problems with the rear-ends when they aren't even rated to handle the power being put out.) The wheel hop is TERRIBLE in the snow on my CTS-V. My grinding tranny is normal according to GM. (Started grinding going from 4-5 at around 8k miles during winter.)
2) The way warranty work is handled (or not handled). It seems that GM argues almost everything. Look at the responses people are getting from GM with obvious warranty issues.
3) The employee pricing has destroyed already poor resale value for those of us that purchased prior to the crazy discounts.
2) Sorry, you just have a shitty dealer that won't work with you. They don't feel like dealing with GM so you end up doing their work.
I will admit that GM could use a new corporate philosphy that might come about if they do restructure and cut back. Which could (hopefully) force a number of the under performing and poorly rated dealerships to close. Brand consolidation would be nice along with selling off Hummer and SAAB.
An 89 Caprice, Fierro, and cars from the 70's??????... it's 2005. :histeric: The GTO... they knew all along that it wouldn't be a huge success for a few reasons and they've been developing an all new GTO for a couple of years. It was a stretch just to bring the car to the US because of union labor contracts.MCaesar said:It is not a matter of recalls. I am talking about releasing cars before the DESIGN is finished - not malfunctions.
Examples
Fiero - released with a crappy 4 speed and anemic 4 cylinder; took years to produce V6 GT
Caprice - released in 89 with crappy engine and suspension that wasn't fixed until 94 Imp SS
The 78 mid-sized cars (Regal, Cutlass) - by the time they got it right they killed it off
GTO - poor styling and average performance; they fixed the motor and now have to spend millions fixing the styling
FWD Impala - instead of re-skinning the Lumina they should have waited until they had it right
Product getting better?
Only the fringe stuff. The Cadillacs are getting better though the STS-V is not the home run we all hoped for. THe Corvettes remain the best performance value on the market.
No, the problem is the mainstream sedans. FWD for the Impala, Grand Prix, Lucerne, etc just doesn't cut it any more. The styling is mediocre to poor. The Chrysler 300C turns heads whereas the Lucerne puts people to sleep.
Where is a sedan from GM that can compete with the S Class and teh 7 series?
GM has a LONG way to go in improving their product.
And their market share reflects that. You can't fool the customer with warmed over cars.
Old people buy Buicks, young to middle aged people buy a car like the 300.
The ULS will be Cadillacs anwser to the S class and 7 series.
Obviously GM is the "core" but the dealership makes a big difference.MacOSR said:The dealerships are not the core of the problem. GM itself is and its desire to do anything to save money instead of doing what is right when it comes to warranty work.
It all comes down to money and american union labor is killing GM. Toyota has plants in the US but they won't allow the unions in, I can't blame them.
Because of the labor costs in America GM, Ford, etc will produce more cars in CHINA and Mexico.
You want more recent ones
FWD Impala - they finally got the powertrain right but the styling can't compare to the 300 or Five Hundred
That's YOUR OPINION, I personally think the Five hundred looks like crap and you know how I feel about the 300... just my .02
Lucerne - wrong wheels driving the car
Works great in bad weather. FWD is fine in lower powered vehicles and again.. just your opinion.
GTO - bland styling
It's a Holden Monaro, which sold just fine in Australia. It's a matter of taste / opinion..... They couldn't change alot on the car and a new one is being designed.
Grand Prix GTP/GXP - after many years they finally got the handling right with the offset tire sizes, no comment, I never drove the car or its competitors.
Aztek/Rendevous - how is GM's share of the minivan market versus Chrysler?
Aztek, looks similiar to the Prius or butt ugly. Rendevous.. never liked it myself but I personally dislike every minivan, minivan / suv hybrid. So... more opinion rather than true product defects.....
Silverado - the last generation lost the momentum the previous generation was building up. It had almost passed the F150 but the Ram came and stole its thunder
Did the Ram out sell the Silverado??? I don't think so, and when it comes to trucks you can combine the Chevy and GMC sales. Which damn near equals the F150 sales.
H3 - a 5 cylinder? are you serious
Hummer is crap. They should sell it along with Saab and put more money into their top brands. The H3 has the I5 because it's based on the small pickup platform and they were aiming for a very low price point. I wouldn't be caught dead in it or the H2.
And yes the examples from the 80s count as well because that is when the big slide started
Whatever you say boss. I (my opinion) personally don't care about what they made 20 years ago.
FWD Impala - they finally got the powertrain right but the styling can't compare to the 300 or Five Hundred
That's YOUR OPINION, I personally think the Five hundred looks like crap and you know how I feel about the 300... just my .02
Lucerne - wrong wheels driving the car
Works great in bad weather. FWD is fine in lower powered vehicles and again.. just your opinion.
GTO - bland styling
It's a Holden Monaro, which sold just fine in Australia. It's a matter of taste / opinion..... They couldn't change alot on the car and a new one is being designed.
Grand Prix GTP/GXP - after many years they finally got the handling right with the offset tire sizes, no comment, I never drove the car or its competitors.
Aztek/Rendevous - how is GM's share of the minivan market versus Chrysler?
Aztek, looks similiar to the Prius or butt ugly. Rendevous.. never liked it myself but I personally dislike every minivan, minivan / suv hybrid. So... more opinion rather than true product defects.....
Silverado - the last generation lost the momentum the previous generation was building up. It had almost passed the F150 but the Ram came and stole its thunder
Did the Ram out sell the Silverado??? I don't think so, and when it comes to trucks you can combine the Chevy and GMC sales. Which damn near equals the F150 sales.
H3 - a 5 cylinder? are you serious
Hummer is crap. They should sell it along with Saab and put more money into their top brands. The H3 has the I5 because it's based on the small pickup platform and they were aiming for a very low price point. I wouldn't be caught dead in it or the H2.
And yes the examples from the 80s count as well because that is when the big slide started
Whatever you say boss. I (my opinion) personally don't care about what they made 20 years ago.
You know it's funny, I can't tell you how many times people bring their new Lexus, MB or BMW into my Cadillac dealer with nothing but horror stories. Or like some of the people in the V forum would have you believe the rear diff is the worst in the history of man kind. Not ONE, 1 has come in for a repair at my dealer, and as I've said before, there's some serious abuse going on that shows up in other areas when you really look at a V with a blown diff.MCaesar said:Denial is very costly in business.
GM's refusal to put real money into R&D and produce cars equivalent to Toyota, Honda, and now Chrysler has cost it market share. Now Nissan is going after the truck market with a real contender.
GM will have to make better product or perish.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/06/A01-50668.htm
It's a perception thing, not reality. I might even be off with my criticism of the 300's quality (still hate the design) and until that changes the "uninformed" buyer will go with a foreign car.
I'd also like to say one more thing. I actually feel that a lot of people love this domestic sales decline, and it's sick. I get the sense that people look at the paper or watch the news to see "how much did their sales slide this quarter, or did they break the record for money lost in 1 year" :crowded: .
I've been in nearly every tier 1 manufacturers car / truck and I have to say these "big flaws in GM products" are bs. Every BMW had several problems, MB had transmission problems, Toyotas :yawn: but reliable, hondas.. they're just small cars with nothing special, all previous gen Chrysler products were garbage, Fords weren't good either, and now GM.... I personally have owned 5 and shared 1 GM vehicle and here's my list of problems (over 10+ years):
- 1st car; 0 problems
- 2nd car; 0 problems
- 3rd car; 1 problem [ ignition switch assembly failed ]
- 4th car; 1 problem [ crank pulley ]
- 5th car; 0 problems
- 6th car; 1 problem [ squeak in dash, fixed in 30 minutes ]
They all drove as well if not better than a competitvely priced foreign car or truck.
The only time I'd look outside of GM is for ultra high performance vehicles.
I've been in nearly every tier 1 manufacturers car / truck and I have to say these "big flaws in GM products" are bs. Every BMW had several problems, MB had transmission problems, Toyotas :yawn: but reliable, hondas.. they're just small cars with nothing special, all previous gen Chrysler products were garbage, Fords weren't good either, and now GM.... I personally have owned 5 and shared 1 GM vehicle and here's my list of problems (over 10+ years):
- 1st car; 0 problems
- 2nd car; 0 problems
- 3rd car; 1 problem [ ignition switch assembly failed ]
- 4th car; 1 problem [ crank pulley ]
- 5th car; 0 problems
- 6th car; 1 problem [ squeak in dash, fixed in 30 minutes ]
They all drove as well if not better than a competitvely priced foreign car or truck.
The only time I'd look outside of GM is for ultra high performance vehicles.
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