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159 Posts
davesdeville said:
Like it or not, you CTS-V guys are driving a quick entry level Caddy. People with serious bank tend not to go for entry level.
I did not purchase my 04 CTS-V because it was a Caddy. I purchased it because of its features/performance. There is no way in hell I would have purchased any other Caddy otherwise (maybe an Escalade at the time).

What do you consider "serious bank"? I have a 2006 BMW M5 on its that serious bank enough?

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159 Posts
There is much more to this discussion then has been said (unless I missed it).

I currently have a 2004 CTS-V that I purchased the day it hit the dealers floor. I even foolishly paid a premium over MSRP which I will never do again for ANY car. This was my first Cadillac (at 31) and my 6th new GM vehicle. I have always been a die-hard US-made vehicle purchaser..."buy American!" I did compare the CTS-V to the BMW M3 and still chose the Cadillac CTS-V over the BMW M3.

My top reasons for choosing the CTS-V over the BMW M3 in order:
1. Performance
2. American made
3. Perceived better value​

Recently I have decided to purchase a 2006 BMW M5. I had many factors in my decision making process. I considered keeping my 2004 CTS-V, getting a Mercedes (various models), getting an STS-V.

Here were my top reasons for deciding to not keep the CTS-V:
1. GM releasing a car with terrible wheel hop.
2. GM's poor response to the wheel hop.
3. GM's decision to spec a rear-end not designed to handle the power the motor puts out.
4. GM's response to rear-end problems.​

Here were my top reasons for deciding to not get an STS-V:
1. It is made by GM and I have lost faith in GM due to the response to CTS-V issues.
2. I think it is an old man's car (forgive me...this is my perception).
3. Not enough performance.
4. No auto shifting manual option (BMW SMG).
5. I don't see the price justification.​

Here were my top reasons for going with the 2006 BMW M5:
1. Performance.
2. Status.
4. Interior quality
5. Friend's experiences with multiple M3's (good).
6. I like it better then anything out there in its class.
7. Unbelievable treatment by the BMW dealer​

I think the comparison between the CTS-V and the STS-V is a silly one to make. I don't believe many true performance enthusiasts would choose the STS-V. Yes you will have the executives that will choose the STS-V because of its power but when you are in that price range if you were truly considering performance and luxury you would most likely choose a Mercedes or a BMW. The target market is the executive that wants an American luxury 4 door large sedan with power.

What should be most concerning to GM is why did I decide this year to move away from American made vehicles when I wouldn't have even have considered it three years ago?
1. I feel that GM pisses on the customer. Look at the wheel hop and rear-end problems on the CTS-V.
2. We are now a global economy. GM's vehicles are using parts made in China so what is the real difference.
3. Dealer attitudes. I was trying to purchase two 2005 Cadillac Escalades and a 2006 Corvette Z06 and the dealer wouldn't deal with me on price (the Escalades were selling too well I guess). I was willing to pay MSRP on the vette but wanted dealer invoice on the Escalades. I ended up getting a couple Toyota Sequoia Limiteds and now the M5.
4. When doing side-by-side comparisons I felt there was a much better value for my $ in the Toyota's.​

There is much more to a luxury sedan then the HP ratings!

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159 Posts
MCaesar said:
As for Toyotas, they are very refined cars but most of them have no soul. They feel like very good appliances. That is fine for Corollas and Camrys but not for luxury or performance cars.
Agreed. GM should be very concerned about China IMHO. Give China a few years and they will be formidable to contend against. Every organization has it's problems. However, you have a problem organization when it doesn't operate with the mentality of "do what is right for the customer."

GM should also watch for Toyota vehicles being compared to their luxury cars/suvs. Go compare a Toyota Sequoia Limited with second row captains seating and wood trim. You will walk away realizing about the only things missing are dual climate zone and not as much HP in the Toyota. However, you get 120v outlet in the Sequoia, save $15,000, and it feels more solid.

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159 Posts
Dave's V said:
I bought my CTS V because I have owned various European cars and was tired of waiting 5 days for essential parts and months for non essential parts. I also bought the CTS V because it doesn't look like anything else out there on the road. Cadillac needs some work but they are saving GM's butt right now. BMWs are fine cars, I would just never own one again. I would never buy from a company that dumps its cars (sell cheaper overseas then in the home market) when their own citizens can't afford the same car at the same price.

I wouldn't buy the STS V either (I would by a Z06 for that price) but I would buy it over any import at that price.
Be careful there :hide: Various people have waited weeks for basic parts for the CTS-V including myself. Every car company has these issues.

I am suprised you would get a Z06 over the STS-V solely on similar price. They target two completely different market segments. Corvette Z06 - tire rippin, corner slicing power and speed for two. If you are looking at the Z06 you would also be in the market for a Porsche or Viper.

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159 Posts
MCaesar said:
GM has a lot more issues than any other big company. Why has their market share fallen every year? The stupid leaders of GM thinks it comes down to cost containment and marketing.

No, stupid (GM, not you) it the PRODUCT!!!

Until they understand that you
1. Can't bring cars to market before all the refinement is complete
2. You can't offer warmed over Chevys as Pontiacs
3. You must be the LEADERS in car design, not the follower
4. Quality is life and death

until then, they will suck wind.
I refuse to purchase another GM vehicle right now. Why?

1) The problems I have had and others have had with their CTS-V's. (GM can't be shocked we are having problems with the rear-ends when they aren't even rated to handle the power being put out.) The wheel hop is TERRIBLE in the snow on my CTS-V. My grinding tranny is normal according to GM. (Started grinding going from 4-5 at around 8k miles during winter.)

2) The way warranty work is handled (or not handled). It seems that GM argues almost everything. Look at the responses people are getting from GM with obvious warranty issues.

3) The employee pricing has destroyed already poor resale value for those of us that purchased prior to the crazy discounts.

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159 Posts
Vrocks said:
I will admit that GM could use a new corporate philosphy that might come about if they do restructure and cut back. Which could (hopefully) force a number of the under performing and poorly rated dealerships to close. Brand consolidation would be nice along with selling off Hummer and SAAB.
The dealerships are not the core of the problem. GM itself is and its desire to do anything to save money instead of doing what is right when it comes to warranty work.

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159 Posts
CaddyGeek said:
All right kids... i've had few :alchi: before and during the reading of page 5 until now so maybe i missed the point here: certain people (my die-hard cts-v peepz) want to make it clear that, in their opinion, buying an sts-v is... what? (CTS-V owners take me literally or don't bother to respond) Let's see:
A bad investment? For the same $ or less, what other name plate offers a better overall sedan? (If anyone says an SRT-8 you shall be banished to hemi-hell where they play the dukes of hazard theme song 24-7 because i said so... screw mopar you drive a gm performance product and the same arguements ring true for your cars)
Stupid? Cuzzz-yah couldah saved money and bought a cts-v? What does this mean guys? Are you saying that gm missed the mark? Which mark... the M5, the E55? From all I've seen (page 5 until now) the issue appears to be why buy a sts-v over a cts-v? What is your real agenda fellahs? Boycott the sts-v? Why? To increase cts-v sales? To expose the sts-v as a failure because it can't out corner or accelerate the M5? Well, is the Jaguar XKR coupe (90K) a failure because it gets it's doors sucked off by an M6? Would the hard-drive space that was used to design the Audi A8 LW12 (108K) have been put to better use if it contained streetfire.*** footage of a C6 Z06 pulling 3 lengths on a Lambo? The answer is no. By posting in this thread you want people to avoid buying an sts-v sooooooo... um, so what? It doesn't sell? That gm sells less sts-vs sooooooo... they redesign the car a year after it was introduced? Did gm redesign your cars in it's 2nd year even after 100s of replaced differentials? Even now, in it's third model year, the cts-v hops on hard launches... all gm did was upgrade the diff. THE PROBLEM WASN'T FIXED.
Warn others against making the same mistake you guys did? Is this it? Warn others away from buying a cadillac built by the same gm executives that failed to address short falls with the cts-v? I don't think so, because you all seem to put together one hell of arguement for the cts-v inspite of it's flaws.
More power at the rear wheels, period? If we all want more power, regardless of price, in the sts-v then start another thread for the SAE 100th Anniversary Car exclaiming it's virtues. Then in that thread (those who talk about being able to OWN an $80K car) people can step up and proclaim, "GM! Had you built this car, we would already be on the list."
If anyone disagrees with me, so be it. This thread and it's arguements back and forth lead to no where, in my humble opinion.
Good post.

The primary reason I posted in this forum is to voice my opinion as to what GM was doing wrong. I owned the first CTS-V in our area back in 2004 and was an early adopter of Cadillac's V series.

Why did I choose to share my thoughts...
1) I was in the market for the STS-V or the M5 (didn't like the Merc)
2) I decided to purchase an M5 over the STS-V
3) GM is failing at the service level within Cadillac. (Even if the STS-V was faster then the M5 I probably wouldn't have purchased it due to service experience with CTS-V's)
4) What I consider to be major problems with the CTS-V (rear end) that have gone unadressed.
5) GM giving huge discounts HAS drastically hurt resale value.

By no means am I trying to pursuade anyone to NOT purchase an STS-V. I would suspect the target buyer at this point is a truly loyal GM customer that wants a large performance luxury sedan. (Loyal the key word.)

Unfortunately (for GM) I am someone that was loyal for many years and due to recent experiences decided to go other routes for my vehicles. The statistics are showing that I am not alone in this move. (6 new GM vehicles in 13 years)

I have not seen the STS-V yet but I have seen the STS and there is no comparison IMHO to the M5. GM could have EASILY put the LS7 in the STS-V and SHOULD have!

I am 110% happy that I have a new M5 in my garage instead of an STS-V. I am keeping my CTS-V as my winter car for now and will unload it after I decide what I want to replace it with (BMW X5 maybe).

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159 Posts
Vrocks said:
I'd also like to say one more thing. I actually feel that a lot of people love this domestic sales decline, and it's sick. I get the sense that people look at the paper or watch the news to see "how much did their sales slide this quarter, or did they break the record for money lost in 1 year" :crowded: .
I've been in nearly every tier 1 manufacturers car / truck and I have to say these "big flaws in GM products" are bs. Every BMW had several problems, MB had transmission problems, Toyotas :yawn: but reliable, hondas.. they're just small cars with nothing special, all previous gen Chrysler products were garbage, Fords weren't good either, and now GM.... I personally have owned 5 and shared 1 GM vehicle and here's my list of problems (over 10+ years):
- 1st car; 0 problems
- 2nd car; 0 problems
- 3rd car; 1 problem [ ignition switch assembly failed ]
- 4th car; 1 problem [ crank pulley ]
- 5th car; 0 problems
- 6th car; 1 problem [ squeak in dash, fixed in 30 minutes ]
They all drove as well if not better than a competitvely priced foreign car or truck.
The only time I'd look outside of GM is for ultra high performance vehicles.
I tend to agree with you. I am really disappointed in GM's sales trends and managment decisions. GM's woes are not good for us. GM has done it to themselves.

I also had very few problems with previous GM vehicles. However, here are my problems with the CTS-V...

- A rear end that is not designed to handle the power output from the factory that fails (go figure).
- A tranny that grinds going into 5th only during winter. I was told that GM told my dealer this is normal and they won't do anything. I have had three GM 6-sp vehicles and never had problems like this.
- EXTREME wheel hop that is actually hazardous in some situations.
- Interior parts that fall off all on their own. Some CTS-V owners have been told that it must be something they are doing and they won't warranty it any more. Mine was fixed without question.
- A rear end that wines like you would not believe.
- A rattaling sunroof (going back in again to be fixed)

EVERY car will have issues, problems and warranties. The real issue is how they are dealt with.

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159 Posts
MCaesar said:
I did see a STS-V in person and I absolutely love the look of the car! Wow, I was impressed. I also am reading how it rides much better than the CLS55 of M5 and I am starting to think it might not be that bad after all! Man, if they had of put an LS7 in there it would be a done deal.
The looks are impressive.

After putting over 500 miles on my M5 I can attest that the ride would be softer in the STS-V most likely. However the M5 handling is VERY nice. The M5 is about the same as the CTS-V with run-flats as far as harshness in ride. The big difference between the M5 and the CTS-V is I hear much less road noise in the M5. I would be hard-pressed to go to an STS-V after having the M5. Performance differences aside the M5 interior is very luxurious.

I will stop by my Caddy dealer this weekend and see if they got an STS-V in yet. I am anxious to see the interior and ergonomics.
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