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Discussion Starter #1
I'm considering getting an ATS and will need to order a car since I want a manual transmission. I'm curious to hear from others who have ordered their car how the available incentives were handled. As I understand it, you receive the incentive when you take delivery of the car, not when you order it. Is that true? From what I read in another post, most people who buy these cars have done so with a fairly large discount. How do you get the right deal if you can't predict the incentive that will be available when your car arrives?

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Dealers can guarantee any incentive not marked "for delivery by X date" and they will give you the better of what was guaranteed and what is available when the car is delivered.

In Canada for example, the approx $3k incentives currently offered are guaranteed ($2k leasing plus $1k just for fun). The only thing not guaranteed is the "sign and drive" first month lease payments which have "for delivery by" language. They have been extended every month so far that I've been waiting, but no guarantee. The other thing that isn't guaranteed is the residual value for leasing.

That said, you're probably going to benefit from your (likely long) wait. Things with the ATS aren't looking good for GM:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/10/us-gm-cadillac-exclusive-idUSKBN0LE0D220150210
 

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I haven't seen any official documentation that US GM dealers can lock in incentives but Ford has been doing that for years so I would not be surprised if GM did the same. In Ford's case its the better of the incentives at time of order or delivery but not any point between. But incentives don't usually get worse over time so I think the policy is more of a peace of mind thing in the manufacturer's view. In Ford's case the dealer actualy has to take steps at time or order to have the option of choosing incentives at delivery. So make sure your Cadillac dealer puts it in writing that you have the choice.

Any deal you make should reflect that the incentives are a separate thing. In other words you agree on a price before factory to buyer incentives are applied. You may still pay more than someone with identical negotiation skills who bought a car off the lot the same time yours was delivered due to factory to dealer incentives that might be in place or stocking mistakes by the dealer.
 

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Discussion Starter #4

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i wouldn't worry about it, if you like the car ....lease it with enough miles and let resale be someone else's problem .....

the issue is certainly not product, these cars are as good as any out there.....and lets face it....most German buyers are very much like Toyota buyers, just not as bad....in that they buy German as a knee-jerk action ...i say not as bad because at least they bounce around between 3 brands whereas attempting to get a Camry owner to consider anything else is an exercise in futility

one thing the Germans and Toyota have in common is they were patient and built these throngs of buyers over a long period...cadillac simply hasn't paid their dues and earned their fans yet...each and every one of us have BMW owners in our circle of friends and family and i'm sure our cars have opened some eyes...my best friends last few cars have been an S4, A5, 550i, 750LI and M5 has 2 15 year olds with drivers permits his daughter got a 328i and his son is getting an ATS Coupe because he likes my car (i say getting because he wants to order a stick......GOOD young man!).....

this is how its going to happen i was the influencer, my friends son will be at his high school among i'm sure an ocean of kids being dropped off in or driving BMW's and assuming Caddillac can keep this up and not mess up... in a decade the market share landscape will be different
 

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the issue with incentives and ordering is you need a VIN to contract a deal, and since the car doesn't exist yet you have no VIN.....most of the time you have no worries as incentives typically get better as the year progresses, if they get worse when the car arrives you don't have to buy the car....dealers know and understand this, they will just sell it to someone else...they only get grumpy if you ordered something really ugly and unsellable then walked away on them....as far as negotiating instead of working down from retail price.....work up from invoice price...for example instead of "i'll buy this for $2000 off list price"....offer $1000 over invoice...that way you get the same deal no matter the final price of the ordered unit...or do a costco or credit union deal
 

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How do you go about finding the invoice price? I'm looking to order an ATS coupe and would like to do it before Marech 2.

the issue with incentives and ordering is you need a VIN to contract a deal, and since the car doesn't exist yet you have no VIN.....most of the time you have no worries as incentives typically get better as the year progresses, if they get worse when the car arrives you don't have to buy the car....dealers know and understand this, they will just sell it to someone else...they only get grumpy if you ordered something really ugly and unsellable then walked away on them....as far as negotiating instead of working down from retail price.....work up from invoice price...for example instead of "i'll buy this for $2000 off list price"....offer $1000 over invoice...that way you get the same deal no matter the final price of the ordered unit...or do a costco or credit union deal
 

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it's sort of fuzzy....you obviously don't know the invoice price again the car does not exist yet...what you do is build your dream car with you sales advisor or his or her manager....have them locate a near equivalent to get in the ballpark of costs and you negotiate

so build your car...it comes to $45K for example they locate one the is $45.5K that has an invoice price of $43.5 K you say ok i'll pay $500 over invoice if they agree you know your price is going to be in the $44K range or less....plus every incentive due you at time of purchase which could be a lot more off

the trade off here is customization vs certainty
 

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just do internet research...true car, edmunds, kelly, and whatever. get an good idea of what others are paying and then negotiate what you can. when you order a car, you're basically telling the dealer you have made up your mind about what you want so your pure negotiating power is diminished versus buying dealer inventory and threatening to go elsewhere.

But you want what you want and you still can get a deal you can live with even if the dealer makes more profit than selling a car off the lot. just try not to get hosed with all those extra dealer add ons. When the car comes in , since its reserved for you, they cant add all the extra stuff that pads the sticker without your consent.
 

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^^^^yes this...in Cali you still have the dealer over a Barrel, they are intensely interested in getting you into the car you ordered, and you are not obligated to take the vehicle and the dealer must return your deposit if you walk away, they may hold it for a period because of the hardship you may have caused them, but they have to return it
 

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OK, spoke with a salesman yesterday about order vs buy from locater stock. They have located my second choice, grey w/Morello Red interior premium or I can order my first choice, Dark Adriatic w/Kona. If I order I lose special factory incentive which expires on 2/28 and take a chance that new incentives will come along by the time I take delivery. I also have a substantiall GM card offer which expres on 3/2 on dealer stock only. So there I am, any advice.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I think the only good reason to special-order a car is if you want stick shift. If I would be happy with an AT, I'm sure I could find a car I want and negotate a deal I'm happy with. But in my area, absolutely nobody stocks a MT car.

I also suspect trying to time incentives on a 2015 is a bit of a crap shoot. Cadillac seriously blew it on their inventories in 2014 and had no choice but to offer huge incentives to help clear dealer lots. I very much doubt they will make the same mistake twice.

I'm curious what sort of incentive you get for having a GM card. I'd consider getting one if it sweetens the deal enough.

OK, spoke with a salesman yesterday about order vs buy from locater stock. They have located my second choice, grey w/Morello Red interior premium or I can order my first choice, Dark Adriatic w/Kona. If I order I lose special factory incentive which expires on 2/28 and take a chance that new incentives will com e along by the time I take delivery. I also have a substantiall GM card offer which expres on 3/2 on dealer stock only. So there I am, any advice.
 

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I have a Capital One GM card which I haven't used since I bought the 09 CTS it still had apprx 100.00 in GM dollars on it. About three weeks ago I received a notice in the mail stating that GM would add the difference to make it a $2000.00 bonus on any 2014 or 2015 Caddillac or other GM cars in stock. I'm finding this hard to pass up. Normal deal on this card is for every dollar used on the card you get a dollar towards purchase of the GM car. Only draw back was that they lowerd my credit limit to $300.00 and when I asked to increase it they refused stating they were not increasing any limits at the time so I forgot about it. My crdit rating is not an issue.
I think the only good reason to special-order a car is if you want stick shift. If I would be happy with an AT, I'm sure I could find a car I want and negotate a deal I'm happy with. But in my area, absolutely nobody stocks a MT car.

I also suspect trying to time incentives on a 2015 is a bit of a crap shoot. Cadillac seriously blew it on their inventories in 2014 and had no choice but to offer huge incentives to help clear dealer lots. I very much doubt they will make the same mistake twice.

I'm curious what sort of incentive you get for having a GM card. I'd consider getting one if it sweetens the deal enough.
 

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Cadillac seriously blew it on their inventories in 2014 and had no choice but to offer huge incentives to help clear dealer lots. I very much doubt they will make the same mistake twice.
Ha! Ha! Good one!............. Oh sorry, I thought you were joking. :)
 

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ClutchTwice said:
They've already cut production from two shifts to one: http://www.autonews.com/article/20141111/OEM01/141119953/gm-drops-shift-at-michigan-cadillac-plant-to-match-car-supply-demand Johan de Nysschen, Caddy's new head-honcho, is not your typical GM manager.
They cut shifts because of the glut of unsold cars stagnating on Cadillac dealership lots. Those cars are sitting unsold because of de Nysschen's idea that Cadillac is ready to charge prices in line with BMW, Merc, etc..
Apparently the car buying public doesn't agree.
This is the guy responsible for the overpricing of ATS' (CTS, ELR) resulting in less than stellar resale value. He doesn't seem to have learned anything based on the recent ATS V pricing announcement. $76k for an ATS V? Please. Here we go again.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
dE Nysschen has only been at Caddy since last August. The prices on the ATS, CTS and ELR where set long before he arrived. ATS prices were set in 2012. He's no more responsible for the current mess then Henry Leland.

And the ATS V is priced at $61,500.

They cut shifts because of the glut of unsold cars stagnating on Cadillac dealership lots. Those cars are sitting unsold because of de Nysschen's idea that Cadillac is ready to charge prices in line with BMW, Merc, etc..
Apparently the car buying public doesn't agree.
This is the guy responsible for the overpricing of ATS' (CTS, ELR) resulting in less than stellar resale value. He doesn't seem to have learned anything based on the recent ATS V pricing announcement. $76k for an ATS V? Please. Here we go again.
 

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ClutchTwice said:
dE Nysschen has only been at Caddy since last August. The prices on the ATS, CTS and ELR where set long before he arrived. ATS prices were set in 2012. He's no more responsible for the current mess then Henry Leland. And the ATS V is priced at $61,500.
de Nysschen is continuing the failed strategy of trying to charge prices that the buying public isn't ready to pay for a Cadillac. Instead of offering a quality product at a competitive price to lure premium buyers away from the Europeans, de Nysschen wants to price Cadillac's in line with BMW & Mercedes. Didn't work before he started at Cadillac and it won't work now. Not yet. Cadillac still has a way to go in building prestige and cache.
The ATS V sedan base price is $61k and the ATS V coupe base price is $63k+. Once options, taxes and fees are added the ATS V can cost $76k. Too much IMO. Check out the ATS V forum.
 

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Actually Johan's strategy might be sound he succeeded doing this with Audi ...Remember after the Audi 5000 unintended acceleration crisis Audi was probably in worse shape than Cadillac was....racing and Quattro (or racing with Quattro) and great styling brought them back but it took a while..

this is exactly what Johan has said...... he WANTS to shed the people who wont pay and only value Cadillac as a bargain..... i'm sure he feels the Hyundai Equus/ Kia K900 can have those folks and i agree if we go down the luxury features for the buck path, those cars win hands down...but they still don't sell......Luxury is something else entirely and he's been frank and open about it taking a decade or more to achieve this.....right now we are only into year 3 for ATS, year 2 for CTS, year 1 for ELR and ATS-V isn't here yet......Johan was also honest about sales getting worse before they get better


do i think he's right.....I don't know...what i do know is bang for buck has not helped the Koreans.....i also know that Cadillac has a real shot at this they do have the clientele they are seeking in their showrooms right now and they are fighting over $98k Escalade Platinums.....and we all know that the product in no longer the issue.....so if you ask me the issue is memory..Cadillac needs to keep on the product trajectory they are on and the memory of the FWD disasters of the past will fade and who knows they might be a contender
 

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Discussion Starter #20
It's early days for Johan and too soon to judge. I doubt he could make substantial changes for 2015 without it costing a fair sum in lost margin (though he did cut prices on the CTS). My guess is he will make bigger changes for the 2016 model year. They will have introduced the CT6 and will likely rename the ATS and CTS. New names will give him the opportunity to reconfigure the cars and get the value proposition more in line with peoples expectations.
 
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