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02 Seville, 04 SRX (sold), 96 Eldorado (sold), 99 DeVille (sold)
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1,369 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Sorry for another post about my brakes but I want to update it a bit and I don't think there is a need to read through all the old posts. Longs story short, the 02 is chewing up rotors. I have ceramics in the front and I can't go more than 8K or so before they start to pulse. Today I drove the car about 700 miles on vacation and had someone else drive and their comments made me start to wonder.

I guess I am just used to it; but breaking from high speeds not only am I getting the "rotor wobble" feeling, but I it takes quite a bit of force to really stop the car. You really have to bring the pedal to the floor to stop it and the brakes overall are kind of mushy. I don't drive the SRX much but the brakes on the SRX feel completely different.

Based on the constant rotor wear and the need to push it all the way down (they aren't tight) is there anything I should be looking for as the cause?
 

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2010 DTS
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87,543 Posts
Did you use OEM pads? I remember a buddy of mine put ceramic pads on his car and said the stopping was terrible and took them off. Just a thought.
 

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1926 Model T street rod, 2000 Jaguar XJ8, 1999 Corvette.
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6,738 Posts
Replace the rotors and throw away the ceramic pads. Use GM OEM pads. Report back in 12,000 miles.
 

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1998 STS
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135 Posts
Try some Frozen Rotors ( Google search), and Delco stock pads from Rock Auto . I did, on both my '98 STS', No shudder, good feel. I tried the green pads, ceramic pads, NAPA rotors, slotted rotors- wouldn't go back
Doug
 

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1997 Cadillac STS (BOSE w/AUX In, Massage Seats, URPAS, "Z")
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6,405 Posts
Well the car does have a feature few people know about when it comes to the breaks. Permanently monitors the amount of time the breaks are applied and how hard (based on the deceleration of the car), all these to estimate the temperature of the rotors. Should you drive the car so aggressively to actually overheat the rotors, a message will show on the IPC warning you about the situation and the T/C will be temporarily deactivated to help cool down the rotors (T/C uses front breaks along with the injector sequential shut down). This complicated algorithm relays massively on the OEM rotor and pads (weighty, size composition, friction coefficient, heat transfer). Thus using anything but OEM parts is not such a good idea no matter what the aftermarket advertise.
 

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'98 STS (RIP @ 206,xxx miles)
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4,854 Posts
Replace the rotors and throw away the ceramic pads. Use GM OEM pads. Report back in 12,000 miles.
Here's another endorsement for OEM specified brake (and other) parts.

The brakes on my '98 Seville do everthing I expect them to do. The last time I replaced my OEM brake pads with OEM brake pads was 80,000+ miles and six+ years ago.
 

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02 Seville, 04 SRX (sold), 96 Eldorado (sold), 99 DeVille (sold)
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1,369 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
The rotors are Delco and the pads are Delco ceramic.
 

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03 Seville STS
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61 Posts
Well the car does have a feature few people know about when it comes to the breaks. Permanently monitors the amount of time the breaks are applied and how hard (based on the deceleration of the car), all these to estimate the temperature of the rotors. Should you drive the car so aggressively to actually overheat the rotors, a message will show on the IPC warning you about the situation and the T/C will be temporarily deactivated to help cool down the rotors (T/C uses front breaks along with the injector sequential shut down). This complicated algorithm relays massively on the OEM rotor and pads (weighty, size composition, friction coefficient, heat transfer). Thus using anything but OEM parts is not such a good idea no matter what the aftermarket advertise.
Is there a link to the source of this info? :cynic:
 

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2010 DTS
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87,543 Posts
Well the car does have a feature few people know about when it comes to the breaks. Permanently monitors the amount of time the breaks are applied and how hard (based on the deceleration of the car), all these to estimate the temperature of the rotors.
I've never heard of this either.
 

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2005 STS4 1SG: GM Acc Lights, Corsa, Platnium Grille, Volant
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15,987 Posts
truth
i have had the message appear on my 97 ETC after beating the absolute piss out of it on backroads

however my 03 STS which is MUCH heavier i have NEVER had the message appear....
 

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2002.5 F55 CORSA STS, 2014 Explorer XLT FWD
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71,004 Posts
The Helm FSM for my STS, under Brake System warnings and indicators, p.5-171, makes no mention of any system for estimating or measuring pad or rotor temperatures based on application times. There is no diagnostic tree for anything like "Brake rotor temperature..............".

Perhaps this feature was changed during the OBD-I to -II changeover, or was dropped at the 2000+ model run.

Knowing how STS2003 and I occasionally drive, I would guess that the feature is no longer installed. (If I can't get it to trip after a panic stop from 130, then it ain't there.........)
 

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1997 Cadillac STS (BOSE w/AUX In, Massage Seats, URPAS, "Z")
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6,405 Posts
Yes, it was mentioned in a post about 1 year ago, I don't remember the name of the member, but he got the message on the dashboard and he was asking here what is that all about.
I explained what is it and asked him what he was doing at that time to the car and he said, long story but it was following some VW or Mazda, not sure...
If I find-it I will post the link for you.
 

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2002.5 F55 CORSA STS, 2014 Explorer XLT FWD
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71,004 Posts
The Real Deal........ Thanks to N*Caddy.......

PP 5-209 of the Manual, Antilock Brake System, DTC C1238, description:

"The EBCM monitors vehicle speed deceleration, system activation, and stoplamp switch active times in order to calculate an estimate of the brake rotor temperatures. If the EBCM calculates that the brake rotor temperatures have exceeded the thermal cutoff point, the EBCM will temporarily suspend the TCS function until the brake rotors cool. ................ The EBCM continues calculating the rotor temperatures after the ignition is turned OFF. ......... The cooling period may take up to 30 minutes."

Estimated rotor temperatures of 375 degrees sets the DTC C1238, activates the TCS disable, displays the Traction Suspended message, and keeps watching until the estimated rotor temps go below 275 degrees on both drive wheels. As soon as the rotors cool the DTC goes to History.


BTW, this DTC clears after 100 consecutive start-drive cycles or you clear it with the ONBoard Diagnostic System ("How to pull codes").

I just blew my Post #11 out of the water..........searches and study.........
 

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1997 Cadillac STS (BOSE w/AUX In, Massage Seats, URPAS, "Z")
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6,405 Posts
Ok I found-it in the 97 FSM is mentioned on 5E2-7:
“TRACTION SUSPENDED: This message is displayed when TCS has been temporarily inhibited due to brake rotor or catalytic converter over temperature”

Then on 5E2-98 is further developed under:

DTC C1238
Brake Thermal Model Exceeded
In few words the EBTCM monitors the vehicle deceleration, ABS/TCS/ICCS activation and brake lamp on times to calculate the rotor temperature.
If the (calculated) temperature is exceeded C1238 is set and TRACTION SUSPENDED message is displayed. The TCS is resumed if the EBTCM determine that brake usage was reduced for a long enough time for the rotors to cool down.

The critical temperature is 375 degrees Celsius (700 Fahrenheit), and the message will NOT be displayed UNLESS the T/C request is set while the C1238 is active. So this message is a very rare occurrence.

Also check the OBD II codes, the code is listed in there.
Diagnose…measure the rotor temperature and if found below 275 degrees Celsius (530 degrees Fahrenheit) then the system has an issue (either brake switch, or EBTCM).

Brakes are used when:
1.Brake pedal is pressed
2.Under T/C activation (front brakes only)
3.Under ICCS activation (depending on the skid mode of the car the wheel(s) that helps straitening the car will break).
It does not specify if the temperature is calculated for the individual rotors or one average value for all. Theoretically the front rotors are prone to overheat first since all 3 of the above can affect the rotors while in the rear only 1. and 3.


EDIT:
UPS too late...Thanks Sub!
 

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2002.5 F55 CORSA STS, 2014 Explorer XLT FWD
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So, based on these two posts from two different manuals 5 years apart, the system is still there.................
 

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1997 Cadillac STS (BOSE w/AUX In, Massage Seats, URPAS, "Z")
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6,405 Posts
So, based on these two posts from two different manuals 5 years apart, the system is still there.................
I would have been shocked to be removed, I mean is just a software thing is not like cost manufacturing time and such.
Is also a very reliable feature since involves no parts, well it also has some limits because it assume brake systems operates correctly and has OEM parts. It will not be able to determine the actual temperature (say due do improper beak service). But that would have involved some wires some thermocouple thus extra cost (manufacturing/maintenance), and if somebody will improperly service the brakes so they overheat, well chances are the sensors will be misplaced/disconnected etc. Then I would see another post about how junk these cars are comparing with some Japanese maker. :rant2:
 

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2005 STS4 1SG: GM Acc Lights, Corsa, Platnium Grille, Volant
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15,987 Posts
thats for sure Sub
i push my STS harder on backroads than i ever did my ETC
pounding the hell out of it i have never had that message appear...
the ETC though it not a problem i can get it to show up if i overused my brakes rather than downshift alot letting the car powerbrake itself
 

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90 Eldo -SOLD-, 98 ETC -SOLD-, 86 XR4Ti Track Car, 07 Ranger
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963 Posts
Have your calipers inspected for seizing or partial seizing, this can cause warped rotors or constant chewing of rotors/pads. I'd look to a failure in another portion of your brake system. Check all your brake lines and ensure you don't have any kinks...
 

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1999 White Diamond ETC
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2,540 Posts
how does one check calipers for seizing? I have a weird feature on my DHS... when I switch into reverse and hold the breaks I hear a very loud hum for the first few feet. Then it goes away even if I reapply the brakes. Something else that's new: the parking brake feels weird when applied when parking (no longer firm, but kind of variable effort when being pressed... )..

The other symptom: when applying the brakes turning left (exit ramp going out of highway then merging back into a straight line), at high speeds (above 50) I get shudder (the shakes) and a catch/release catch/release feedback on the brake pedal... not as fast as a warped rotor, and not present if turning right.
 
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