[Mike 09 V]

OK I read all the stuff on this forum and I have a few observations and questions. Here goes-It would seem to me that if all the cars have the same stock engine, and this engine is built in the same place with the same machines and components and tolerances in the dimensions, then they should produce nearly exactly the same power assuming the variables are all the same. Gary Wells has been compiling Dyno lists that show a spread from low to high that is around 70 HP difference for his OWN car on different dynos. I suspect that stock V's with the same transmission, on the same dyno, on the same day, with the same heat soak, and the same altitude and the same gas (and whatever else same there is) would read out real close to one another. The real question is, what IS that number?

Next:Now, assuming that all our engines are nearly exactly the same in stock trim, then the factory tune is likely identical as well. Which leads me to this-The tuner has very few parameters that he can change like timing, air fuel ratio, and I don't know what else (not counting transmission). In any event, changing any parameters would mean the new tune will not match the factory tune. Doh, that is the idea right? So how is it that the tune can be invisible to the dealer if they check, as some vendors claim, since there absolutely are differences, and we are not risking losing our warranty if we get it tuned ?:stirpot:

 

[Guest]

You go back to stock before the dealer visit or dont let them touch the computer

 

[e6t]

you do risk losing your warranty if you tune and your dealer finds it and damage is caused by the tune.

 

[newcadman]

FWIW, if you're worried about a tune and warranty you may wish to consider a second ECM to have, that can either serve as your tuned ECM or as the stock one to be swapped for warranty.

 

[gonfishin]

"I wish we could help you, citizen, but we're just a couple of ordinary crimefighters going about our mundane business."

 

[wait4me]

In Ida pro, you can emulate the bin file pulled from the ecm and mimic the processor type to watch it run in emulation modes. Here is a code snip"
69E8: 37 PSHB ;7
69E9: 2F 2D BLE L6A18 ;/-
69EB: 2C 2A BGE L6A17 ;,*
69ED: 28 26 BVC L6A15 ;(&
L69EE
69EF: 24 22 L69EF BCC L6A13 ;$"
69F1: 20 1D L69F1 BRA L6A10 ; .
;
69F3: 1A L69F3 *****
69F4: 17 TBA ;.
69F5: 13 0E 07 07 L69F5 BRCLR L000E,#$07,L6A00 ;....
;
L69F7
;
69F9: 37 PSHB ;7
69FA: 2F 2D BLE L6A29 ;/-
69FC: 2C 2A BGE L6A28 ;,*
69FE: 28 26 BVC L6A26 ;(&
L69FF
6A00: 24 22 L6A00 BCC L6A24 ;$"
6A02: 20 1D L6A02 BRA L6A21 ; .

Basically using ida, you can pinout calls and subroutines to watch how the engine file is being used and pin point exact address for the tables and see alot of things...

Doing this with a quick counting method using table pointing values like 0002 and 1022 ect, you can see there are over 10,000 tables and perameters that are adjustable in the different segments.

The tables people use are all different depending on the tuners.. Not all tuners are Hex editors like me, some are..

Here is a snip of a raw bin file, ?..0;.....`~..`x..`z?...;[email protected];...?..0.~L.Uk..A...;......D;..iS......D;...8`'.8...d...d...d...d...d...d...d...d...d...d...d...d...d...8...d...|[email protected][email protected]_..a..9....|`..|1..d...d...d...<[email protected]<[email protected];.....Q.8...<`.0..Q.9.....Q...Q...Q...Q...Q...P.8...P.| 8.....P...P.9`.{T..0`..x..P.

My job is to figure out what that means and how the processor is using it..


Swapping out a different ecm will get you caught for sure. They have a module swapping detection on the car. It can even be seen with a production tech2......

The only way to get around it is to fix things in the stock ecm...

 

[Domsz06]

OK I read all the stuff on this forum and I have a few observations and questions. Here goes-It would seem to me that if all the cars have the same stock engine, and this engine is built in the same place with the same machines and components and tolerances in the dimensions, then they should produce nearly exactly the same power assuming the variables are all the same. Gary Wells has been compiling Dyno lists that show a spread from low to high that is around 70 HP difference for his OWN car on different dynos. I suspect that stock V's with the same transmission, on the same dyno, on the same day, with the same heat soak, and the same altitude and the same gas (and whatever else same there is) would read out real close to one another. The real question is, what IS that number?

Next:Now, assuming that all our engines are nearly exactly the same in stock trim, then the factory tune is likely identical as well. Which leads me to this-The tuner has very few parameters that he can change like timing, air fuel ratio, and I don't know what else (not counting transmission). In any event, changing any parameters would mean the new tune will not match the factory tune. Doh, that is the idea right? So how is it that the tune can be invisible to the dealer if they check, as some vendors claim, since there absolutely are differences, and we are not risking losing our warranty if we get it tuned ?:stirpot:

I'll tell you this, there is only one vendor I know of that makes the claim he can hide his tunes. Not getting into details in public I'd trust him.....

Switching out an ecm will do jack shit for you, you will still get caught. There are other things the general has installed that will rat you out if you tune, and also, if you tune the transmission that computer is NOT EASY to get to... That's all I'm gonna go into in public....

 

[gonfishin]

Never rub another man's rhubarb

 

[Gary Wells]

OK ........................ Gary Wells has been compiling Dyno lists that show a spread from low to high that is around 70 HP difference for his OWN car on different dynos.....................................:

rwhp---rwtq---trans--corr------dyno-----------date----------loc--------owner

429-----430-----A6-----unc.----Dynojet------09-26-09-------ca-------garywells
456-----451-----A6-----sae-----Dynojet------10-13-10-------ca-------garywells
497-----513-----A6.----sae-----Dynapk------10-16-09-------ca-------garywells
510-----531-----A6.----sae-----Dynapk------10-11-10-------ca-------garywells

OK, I apologize for any confusion that this may have caused. The 1st dyno was done by a friend of a friend of a friend that had no experience dynoing the new Cad, and I am pretty sure that he forgot to turn off all of the controls. The car was not fully broken in yet, and I did not run the car very hard prior to putting it on the dyno. The 2nd dyno run was done at a local dyno shop in Anaheim on a Dynojet, I also forgot to run the car very hard prior to them loading it on the dyno, consequently, the 1st pull was pretty much wasted getting the computer to learn. I suspect that dyno run to be typical of what I actually pull on a Dynojet on the average. The 3rd dyno run was done on a Dynapack, which is where they pull the rims off of the car and hook directly up to the hubs. I suspect that Dynapack dynos read somewhat high compared to a Dynojet, and the 4th run was also on the same Dynapack. My objective of recording the dyno runs of various bone stock '09 & up CTS-V's and putting those charts together is to verify / validate that all dynos measure different, & consequently come up with different readings. HTH

 

[newcadman]

Swapping out a different ecm will get you caught for sure. They have a module swapping detection on the car. It can even be seen with a production tech2......



I'm sure you're totally correct in what you say about swapping out ECMs.

I unfortunately was basing the 2 ECM premise on a fellow I know with an 08 Vette who has 2 ECMs and has swapped them several times with no issues or hassles from the dealer whenever he has had warranty work done and they've used the tech2.

 

[Gary Wells]

Never rub another man's rhubarb

May I suggest that you don't let another man rub yours either.

 

[JimmyH]

There are probably more variables in dyno measuring than their have been dynamo-meters manufactured.

 

[Domsz06]

Swapping out a different ecm will get you caught for sure. They have a module swapping detection on the car. It can even be seen with a production tech2......



I'm sure you're totally correct in what you say about swapping out ECMs.

I unfortunately was basing the 2 ECM premise on a fellow I know with an 08 Vette who has 2 ECMs and has swapped them several times with no issues or hassles from the dealer whenever he has had warranty work done and they've used the tech2.

pretty sure the vette has the same tattle tails as the v does, the dealer just never looked. Unless they look for tuning they will not see it. Just hooking up a tech 2 isn't gonna tell them it's been modded.

 

[e6t]

precisely why there is only one vendor on this board that will tune my car.

 

[bash535i]

precisely why there is only one vendor on this board that will tune my car.

Okay, spill the beans please. Which tuner is it? PM me if necessary.
Thanks!

 

[DrumStix]

I like pie.

 

[gonfishin]

Why so serious?

 

[e6t]

I like pie.

pie are good.

 

[PhxTriode]

OK I read all the stuff on this forum and I have a few observations and questions. Here goes-It would seem to me that if all the cars have the same stock engine, and this engine is built in the same place with the same machines and components and tolerances in the dimensions, then they should produce nearly exactly the same power assuming the variables are all the same. Gary Wells has been compiling Dyno lists that show a spread from low to high that is around 70 HP difference for his OWN car on different dynos. I suspect that stock V's with the same transmission, on the same dyno, on the same day, with the same heat soak, and the same altitude and the same gas (and whatever else same there is) would read out real close to one another. The real question is, what IS that number?

Next:Now, assuming that all our engines are nearly exactly the same in stock trim, then the factory tune is likely identical as well. Which leads me to this-The tuner has very few parameters that he can change like timing, air fuel ratio, and I don't know what else (not counting transmission). In any event, changing any parameters would mean the new tune will not match the factory tune. Doh, that is the idea right? So how is it that the tune can be invisible to the dealer if they check, as some vendors claim, since there absolutely are differences, and we are not risking losing our warranty if we get it tuned ?:stirpot:

Take it to Kachina Cadillac (Scottsdale RD) and tell them you only want Mark to work on it. I have never had an issue.

 

[The Tony Show]

If you tune the car, regardless of who does it, be prepared for the possibility that a dealer can deny warranty coverage on drivetrain failures and there's nothing you can do about it.

I've never seen a situation on these boards in 6+ years where a tune caused damage to an engine, but if something goes wrong with your engine and the dealer decides to go looking for evidence of a tune, you could get caught. At this point, depending on who tuned it and how, you might get caught red-handed and be charged for the repair, regardless of whether you think it caused the problem. If the tune is well hidden and might have caused the problem, your conscience needs to decide if you think lying about never being tuned is an honest thing to do.

I've been modding cars for a long time, including my 2004 CTS-V, so don't take this to mean I disagree with modding. This discussion's been done thousands of times on forums for every brand, however, and it always goes down the same road of people arguing Magnusson-Moss Act, dual PCMs, hidden tunes, etc. The bottom line is that the owner's manual on every car out there (even a Sebring) warns that modifications and damage resulting from modifications are not covered under warranty. Mod ANYTHING on your car at your own risk.