My daughters 2011 SRX with 3.0 is running rich in both banks by the exhaust pipe and showing codes for that as well as indicating by fuel trim as displayed on a TECH2. Fuel trim becomes more normal as rpm increases but still rich. Researched and focused on vacuum controlled fuel pressure regulator usually attached to the fuel rail, BUT cannot find it on this car. Does this car have a vacuum controlled fuel pressure regulator, and if so - where? Any other tips as to likely causes? I am much better at working with lean conditions and this has me stumped. Thanks for all help.
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BEWARE OF SCAMMERS. Anyone trying to get your money should be checked out BEFORE you send anything anywhere.
CWB
I know the answer and you are not going to like the solution...
I know EXACTLY what this is, I has this exact thing on our '11 3.0. You are right, it is the fuel pump. I had the SAME thing, fuel trim way off at idle and normal as speed up. Agreed, I had a hard time coming up a reason with why was RICH and not lean like most problems seen to be.... Here it is: The DIRECT INJECTION 2000 PSI HIGH PRESSURE fuel pump on these can develop leaks and leak raw gas right into the engine. Then the PCV system will draw out the fuel fumes from the warm engine. Problem is, this is extra fuel getting them burned so the O2 sensors see and fuel trims go way lean to compensate. But they go so lean it sets the codes you see. P0172 and P0175. At higher RPM, the leaked amount is small enough not to affect the overall fuel mixture even though still happening, but trims go back to normal.
The HIGH PRESSURE pump is driven off a cam shaft in the V. There was a service bullitten (#PI0145A) for the '10 3.0 to change the pump, but my '11 had this same problem so it wasn't completely fixed in the '11s.
Other things you may see: Open oil filler when engine off. Smells more like like raw gas than oil? Mine did.
Mine also DIESELED or RAN ON or what ever term you want to use where you shut off the engine and it keeps bucking and running for 2-3 seconds. NOT GOOD that so much extra fuel was in the PCV system the engine "ran" even once spark and fuel injectors were cut off. Didn't do this often, but it DID do it.
You are technically competent, as you own a Tech2, but here is the part you are not going to like: The pump isn't that much ($200ish from Rock Auto) BUT the service bulliten says to replace some high pressure output cross tubing. I couldn't find that part anywhere online. So, instead of leaking 2000 PSI fuel on a hot engine from a home repair, I had the dealer do it, as he found the pipe. Pipe was like $324!!!! Total cost :$716.
If don't do it, then I worried about fuel contaminated oil and the fact that high mileage 3.0/3.6 seem to get stretched timing chains, so I just paid the cash. FYI, had about 80,000 miles when started and finally replaced at 92,000.
Here you can see reference to the 2010 SRX, but doesn't say what to do
http://www.allworldauto.com/tsbs/NHTSA_2010_CADILLAC_SRX_technical_service_bulletin_339028.html
See what to do from : (Note, service bulliten says codes and running rough. Mine didn't run rough but for the RUN-ON and on long trips the LTFT would go back to "normal" so when come off interstate, the extra fuel wasn't "trimmed out" for idle soon enough and it would idle low and rough to the point had to use foot to keep running.)
http://www.terrainforum.net/31-engine-drivetrain/2128-just-noticed-fuel-oil-11.html
#PI0145A: Check Engine Light On, DTCs P0172 and P0175, Engine Runs Rough (Follow Diagnostics and Replace High Pressure Fuel Pump) - (Jun 16, 2010)
Subject: Check Engine Light On, DTCs P0172 and P0175, Engine Runs Rough (Follow Diagnosis and Replace High Pressure Fuel Pump)
Models: 2010 Buick LaCrosse
2010 Cadillac CTS, SRX
2010 Chevrolet Equinox
2010 GMC Terrain
Equipped with 3.0L Engine (RPO LF1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This PI is being revised to update the Warranty Information. Please discard PI0145.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern
Some customers may comment that the check engine light is on, the engine is running rough and/or about an engine run-on for a few seconds. Upon further investigation, a technician may find DTCs P0172 and P0175 stored. In most cases, the crankcase may have fuel contamination.
Recommendation/Instructions
If this concern is encountered, perform SI diagnosis and repair as necessary. If SI diagnosis does not isolate the cause of this concern, then follow the steps below.
• Check the low side fuel pressure leak down with a mechanical gauge as outlined in Fuel System Diagnosis in SI. If fuel pressure leak down is present, with the J 37287 (Fuel Line Shut-Off Adapter) installed and closed, follow the Fuel Pump Replacement Procedure in SI to replace the high pressure fuel pump.
• Check the engine oil for fuel dilution contamination. Inspect the engine oil for a raw fuel smell. If present, remove the valve cover and inspect for fuel wash around the high pressure fuel injection pump plunger. Follow the Fuel Pump Replacement procedure in SI to replace the high pressure fuel pump. Also, change the engine oil and filter to complete the repairs.
Bob
I know EXACTLY what this is, I has this exact thing on our '11 3.0. You are right, it is the fuel pump. I had the SAME thing, fuel trim way off at idle and normal as speed up. Agreed, I had a hard time coming up a reason with why was RICH and not lean like most problems seen to be.... Here it is: The DIRECT INJECTION 2000 PSI HIGH PRESSURE fuel pump on these can develop leaks and leak raw gas right into the engine. Then the PCV system will draw out the fuel fumes from the warm engine. Problem is, this is extra fuel getting them burned so the O2 sensors see and fuel trims go way lean to compensate. But they go so lean it sets the codes you see. P0172 and P0175. At higher RPM, the leaked amount is small enough not to affect the overall fuel mixture even though still happening, but trims go back to normal.
The HIGH PRESSURE pump is driven off a cam shaft in the V. There was a service bullitten (#PI0145A) for the '10 3.0 to change the pump, but my '11 had this same problem so it wasn't completely fixed in the '11s.
Other things you may see: Open oil filler when engine off. Smells more like like raw gas than oil? Mine did.
Mine also DIESELED or RAN ON or what ever term you want to use where you shut off the engine and it keeps bucking and running for 2-3 seconds. NOT GOOD that so much extra fuel was in the PCV system the engine "ran" even once spark and fuel injectors were cut off. Didn't do this often, but it DID do it.
You are technically competent, as you own a Tech2, but here is the part you are not going to like: The pump isn't that much ($200ish from Rock Auto) BUT the service bulliten says to replace some high pressure output cross tubing. I couldn't find that part anywhere online. So, instead of leaking 2000 PSI fuel on a hot engine from a home repair, I had the dealer do it, as he found the pipe. Pipe was like $324!!!! Total cost :$716.
If don't do it, then I worried about fuel contaminated oil and the fact that high mileage 3.0/3.6 seem to get stretched timing chains, so I just paid the cash. FYI, had about 80,000 miles when started and finally replaced at 92,000.
Here you can see reference to the 2010 SRX, but doesn't say what to do
http://www.allworldauto.com/tsbs/NHTSA_2010_CADILLAC_SRX_technical_service_bulletin_339028.html
See what to do from : (Note, service bulliten says codes and running rough. Mine didn't run rough but for the RUN-ON and on long trips the LTFT would go back to "normal" so when come off interstate, the extra fuel wasn't "trimmed out" for idle soon enough and it would idle low and rough to the point had to use foot to keep running.)
http://www.terrainforum.net/31-engine-drivetrain/2128-just-noticed-fuel-oil-11.html
#PI0145A: Check Engine Light On, DTCs P0172 and P0175, Engine Runs Rough (Follow Diagnostics and Replace High Pressure Fuel Pump) - (Jun 16, 2010)
Subject: Check Engine Light On, DTCs P0172 and P0175, Engine Runs Rough (Follow Diagnosis and Replace High Pressure Fuel Pump)
Models: 2010 Buick LaCrosse
2010 Cadillac CTS, SRX
2010 Chevrolet Equinox
2010 GMC Terrain
Equipped with 3.0L Engine (RPO LF1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This PI is being revised to update the Warranty Information. Please discard PI0145.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern
Some customers may comment that the check engine light is on, the engine is running rough and/or about an engine run-on for a few seconds. Upon further investigation, a technician may find DTCs P0172 and P0175 stored. In most cases, the crankcase may have fuel contamination.
Recommendation/Instructions
If this concern is encountered, perform SI diagnosis and repair as necessary. If SI diagnosis does not isolate the cause of this concern, then follow the steps below.
• Check the low side fuel pressure leak down with a mechanical gauge as outlined in Fuel System Diagnosis in SI. If fuel pressure leak down is present, with the J 37287 (Fuel Line Shut-Off Adapter) installed and closed, follow the Fuel Pump Replacement Procedure in SI to replace the high pressure fuel pump.
• Check the engine oil for fuel dilution contamination. Inspect the engine oil for a raw fuel smell. If present, remove the valve cover and inspect for fuel wash around the high pressure fuel injection pump plunger. Follow the Fuel Pump Replacement procedure in SI to replace the high pressure fuel pump. Also, change the engine oil and filter to complete the repairs.
Bob
So others will know. It was the high pressure fuel pump. Took to Dealership and told them symptoms and said replace the high pressure FP, change the oil and rotate the tires. All is well now - $850 later. They replaced the pump and the pipe. I will post the part numbers later. If it were mine instead of my daughters, I would have done it myself. Would that have been a foolish decision? THANKS BobVVue. You were spot on. And thanks for making me look smart to my family, friends, and the Cadi shop.
Pump 12677329----$280.69
Pipe 12639208----$116.71
Labor----------------$315.00
I did not include rotation or oil change labor. Thanks again BobVVue.
Pump 12677329----$280.69
Pipe 12639208----$116.71
Labor----------------$315.00
I did not include rotation or oil change labor. Thanks again BobVVue.
My 2010 SRX has been in and out (Mostly in) of the dealership since March 20th. When I took it in I had exactly the same codes as you (P0172 and P0175) and told them I suspected the High Pressure Fuel pump. They diagnosed it as both catalytic converters being clogged due to faulty fuel injectors (all SIX!). Parts & labor was a whopping $4700, but they assured me this would fix the issues. I get it back and it's doing this on cold starts and still throwing both rich codes:
Take it back, they put me in a loaner, keep it another week, blame it on 'sticky valves' do some 'top engine cleaning procedure', it throws the code for them again, they ANOTHER cleaning - and assure me it's fixed. I get it back and within 24hrs it throws the same codes again. I'm now in another loaner and they've had it since the 12th and no word yet on the latest. I've even had to contact GM and get them in on all this mess. If they come back and say it's the fuel pump.....oh boy...
Take it back, they put me in a loaner, keep it another week, blame it on 'sticky valves' do some 'top engine cleaning procedure', it throws the code for them again, they ANOTHER cleaning - and assure me it's fixed. I get it back and within 24hrs it throws the same codes again. I'm now in another loaner and they've had it since the 12th and no word yet on the latest. I've even had to contact GM and get them in on all this mess. If they come back and say it's the fuel pump.....oh boy...
You didn't say how many miles but these 3.0L V6s are not long lived. I would never invest $4700 in an 8 year old vehicle unless it had extremely low miles
~88,000
It's been a fantastic car otherwise. Very reliable, fully loaded with RSE and everything....and it's paid for so no car payments is nice.
I was on the fence on whether to repair or replace when they came up with the prognosis. Now had I known that it would have turned into this mess....
Hindsight is always 20/20 though. Although to me 88k isn't really all that high, I've had vehicles with much higher mileage than that. In fact my Wife still LOVES her 2008 CTS which just hit 100k. To each his own I guess.
It's been a fantastic car otherwise. Very reliable, fully loaded with RSE and everything....and it's paid for so no car payments is nice.
I was on the fence on whether to repair or replace when they came up with the prognosis. Now had I known that it would have turned into this mess....
Hindsight is always 20/20 though. Although to me 88k isn't really all that high, I've had vehicles with much higher mileage than that. In fact my Wife still LOVES her 2008 CTS which just hit 100k. To each his own I guess.
UPDATE: I think the saga may FINALLY be over!
Got a call 1st thing Saturday morning from the dealership's manager saying the car is repaired and they are confident of it this time. They told me that they ended up having to 'call Detroit' (GM?) and speak to an engineer about it. He asked them if they had checked the High Pressure Fuel pump, they told him they had, and it was reading normal. He told them to check it again. It was still reading normal. He told them to replace it anyway because their are some instances where it reads normal but that it's still the root of the issues (Probably related to PI0145A I'm guessing - I had actually read about the bulletin you mentioned before I even brought it to them when I was trouble shooting it myself). So they installed a brand new High Pressure Fuel Pump and it fixed the cold start issue. They also added a bottle of ACDelco 88865595 Fuel System Treatment which was mentioned in the bulletin about the engine cleaning procedure (GM actually now recommends this at every oil change according to that bulliten). Over the past few days I've cold started it 6 times with no issues, very consistent now.
What bothers me is the very first time I brought it in I advised them I suspected the pump, even mentioned the service bulletin. When I brought it back the second time I mentioned it again. So how could they be sure the injectors & cats were really bad? So the manager let me talk directly to the tech who worked on it, who showed me all the graphs from all the tests on my car, and how they were abnormal before replacing the cats & injectors, and how they were normal afterwards. And of course in their defense replacing those parts did fix the majority of the original issue...so....who knows....
I guess the positive here is that I was not charged for two 'top engine cleaning' procedures (I'm seeing reports online that this typically costs ~$250 per incident) and a brand new High Pressure Fuel Pump installation (I was quoted ~$1300 to have this done to our CTS which has a similar engine/pump setup), plus the $25 magical fuel system cleaner. Wasn't charged a dime for any of it. So if we give the dealership the benefit of the doubt here and assume the other parts were indeed bad, then that makes the original $4600 spent a much better deal overall. They are also working with GM to hopefully provide a longer than normal warranty on the repairs (it's normally 12 months, unlimited miles, manager is hoping they will approve an additional 12 months), plus my GM rep said she's going to be re-activating my OnStar for free (not sure how long yet) for added piece of mind. And of course they did put me in a loaner for the better part of a month. So I guess all is well that ends well?
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Got a call 1st thing Saturday morning from the dealership's manager saying the car is repaired and they are confident of it this time. They told me that they ended up having to 'call Detroit' (GM?) and speak to an engineer about it. He asked them if they had checked the High Pressure Fuel pump, they told him they had, and it was reading normal. He told them to check it again. It was still reading normal. He told them to replace it anyway because their are some instances where it reads normal but that it's still the root of the issues (Probably related to PI0145A I'm guessing - I had actually read about the bulletin you mentioned before I even brought it to them when I was trouble shooting it myself). So they installed a brand new High Pressure Fuel Pump and it fixed the cold start issue. They also added a bottle of ACDelco 88865595 Fuel System Treatment which was mentioned in the bulletin about the engine cleaning procedure (GM actually now recommends this at every oil change according to that bulliten). Over the past few days I've cold started it 6 times with no issues, very consistent now.
What bothers me is the very first time I brought it in I advised them I suspected the pump, even mentioned the service bulletin. When I brought it back the second time I mentioned it again. So how could they be sure the injectors & cats were really bad? So the manager let me talk directly to the tech who worked on it, who showed me all the graphs from all the tests on my car, and how they were abnormal before replacing the cats & injectors, and how they were normal afterwards. And of course in their defense replacing those parts did fix the majority of the original issue...so....who knows....
I guess the positive here is that I was not charged for two 'top engine cleaning' procedures (I'm seeing reports online that this typically costs ~$250 per incident) and a brand new High Pressure Fuel Pump installation (I was quoted ~$1300 to have this done to our CTS which has a similar engine/pump setup), plus the $25 magical fuel system cleaner. Wasn't charged a dime for any of it. So if we give the dealership the benefit of the doubt here and assume the other parts were indeed bad, then that makes the original $4600 spent a much better deal overall. They are also working with GM to hopefully provide a longer than normal warranty on the repairs (it's normally 12 months, unlimited miles, manager is hoping they will approve an additional 12 months), plus my GM rep said she's going to be re-activating my OnStar for free (not sure how long yet) for added piece of mind. And of course they did put me in a loaner for the better part of a month. So I guess all is well that ends well?
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