I bought a 1984 Seville last month and have it scheduled with a local (Balt-Wash part of Maryland) auto upholsterer for vinyl top replacement. Where are you located?

 

Nice! What kind of cost estimate were you quoted? Are they able to replace with something like OEM materials or are these kind of restorations custom jobs using some other material. I’ll check for some local “auto upholstery” places. BTW: What color did you go with?

The car is in Texas at the moment; San Antonio/Austin area.

 

White, color match to OEM but with different texture. Cost estimate $2,000! The shop has a decent reputation in this region and is used by one of the Cadillac-La Salle car club's top restorers and a senior vehicle judge.

My 84 is Hatteras Blue body with the factory white vinyl top.

 

One thing to consider is you probably want to evaluate what's under the top before they replace it. It would be best to protect the area under that surface as well as you can. At least with the older cars they're not always painted, with the final top coat, under the top and there can be corrosion concerns.

 

Yes replace the top before doing a repaint. Any corrosion take care of first before doing a paint job,

Just about any reputable upholstery shop can do a replacement especially that faux convertible cabriolet top. If they damage the structure underneath it could be a disaster so you want someone with experience with that roof style.

Lacquer paint cannot be painted over with modern 2 stage. It either has to be stripped to the metal surface or sealed with something like an epoxy sealer. Where you are going to run into a price increase is with all that chrome trim. The trim down the side I do know for a fact to get to the nuts holding the front fender will require a fender removal. To get to the door fasters probably the indoor door trim has to be removed and the rear you probably have to remove the upper part of the rear seat to get to the inside of the body to get to the fasteners. I suppose that side trim could be masked over. Chances are the paint will chip along the edge. So removing it would be the best.

Removing the front fenders is a PITA. You have to remove the front end. Hint document where everything goes or take photo's. Absolutely don't remove the hood hinges. There is just enough room between the hinge and torx bolt to get a torx fitting in there to remove it. I used a torx wrench that looks like an Allen wrench. Seems like there are 4 bolts inside the edge of were the door is at. Some at the bottom and screws into the fender lining. The fender attaches to a frame underneath and it lifts off the frame. You might just want to replace the power antenna at the same time.

I'd replace the front and rear bumper fillers also. Not sure but possibly someone is making those in silicone now.

 

My on hold Seville project with some photo's. This page shows what the passenger side without the fender looks like.
Some a** put to much refrigerant into the system and blew a hole in the evaporator core and both sides of the case also. Oh no it couldn't have been just one side. That was a job replacing. No wonder the seller said the A/C wasn't working. Probably one of his commercial HVAC techs thought they'd put some R134 in it. I bet that went kaboom.

1984 Seville project thread

I was lucky or maybe not so to snag this 1984 Seville last year. I first looked at it in June 2016 from a seller at Kalamzoo, MI and I test drove it and looked it over. The seller's father bought the car it appears used from a Cadillac dealer in FL from the papers that he gave me. There...

www.cadillacforums.com

 

DB2,
Any car I've had the top done has been after paint if the plan is to paint the car. I request that the surface under the top is painted like the rest of the car to prevent corrosion. I don't know the tops on the 84-85 Seville at all but if the trim needs to come off it's generally not a fun job on almost any car. When it comes off I would want to plan to do the paint before anything goes back on.

One option might be to find a line to paint down to where it would not be an obvious repaint. I don't think we can tell by the photo but if the car doesn't need painting I would think twice about painting it because removing everything to do it properly is a big job. If someone offers to paint and mask everything the car may be better off without the repaint (making the assumption the paint is in good shape).

Since the top is damaged on the back corner maybe it's possible to assess a little better what might be underneath. I don't necessarily like what I am about to suggest myself but just throwing it out there: If the top is in good shape other than that corner I wonder if it could be extended without having it be super obvious. It's not ideal but being a white car it would likely only be visible from very close and the OP could drive/enjoy the car for a while before diving into an relatively expensive repair. I think I would try to find a good trim shop in the area and ask them what they think.

When you did yours was the trim tricky to remove/install without damage?

Scott

 

Wow! Thanks everyone for all the tips. You guys gave me a lot to consider here. Sounds like I need to call some Trim Shops & Auto Upholstery shops for a few estimates.

It looks like these cars were manufactured with some sort of fiberglass underlayment piece under the vinyl on the back corner sides. If it weren't for the missing vinyl on the back corners I bet it wouldn't bother me. I kind of like the budget friendly idea about finding a good trim shop to assess some sort of patch for the missing vinyl triangles.

Anyone have any ballpark cost estimates for a full professional repaint on this model car? Not sure about spending ~$2,000 on an all new vinyl top without getting the new paint job to match.

Appreciate you guys sharing your knowledge!

 

Since that style top was designed to look like a convertible top are you saying that missing triangle already represented a "fold line" for the convertible look? If yes I suspect a good trim shop may be able to do something and mask the repair (just my guess).

Regarding the paint it can literally be all over the place. To do it correctly all the glass and trim needs to come off. An acceptable job to some but not all would be to mask everything and remove virtually nothing. If the paint is in good shape I would see what a professional detail shop thinks. As long as the paint isn't checked or cracked it probably does not need painting and you may be happier with a less expensive job than you would be with a shortcut paint job which still costs thousands.

If the top surfaces are cracked/ checked you could have just the hood and trunk painted. Just be aware that you have the HT4100 which can be a time bomb and they are generally not rebuildable. So you need to ask yourself if you like this car enough that you don't feel bad spending thousands on a paint job and then thousands on an engine replacement. The crowd is a bit split on the solution for the engine. About 50% (being kind) say they would replace it with something else but that's not an easy job and not a possibility for many. I would say 99% caution that you really need to pay close attention to coolant maintenance and level if you want the HT4100 to last.

 

I would put the 2k towards taking that top off, rust fixed, studs removed & holes filled, and painting the top of the car. White is no problem to match, or you could put red on top to match the interior. Sounds crazy but we had a Seville that was red on top and white on bottom and it looked great. It’s the ideal car for a budget friendly paint job on top since there’s a chrome spear that runs the full length of the car to separate the top and bottom. My .02 is that these cars look best two toned.

 

 

This forum is awesome.

My apologies for my lack of car related vocabulary I uploaded a better photo of that vinyl rear corner to show what I see beneath.

So the paint job isn't 'cracked' or 'checked' anywhere but certainly is dull and has some road rock dings/chips on the front end/nose and the occasional speckle of rust. I think the uploaded photo shows 1 or 2 tiny rust spots on the trunk hood edge, mostly the photo is showing dirt spots that will wash off. I'm actually open to doing what would be needed professionally paint-wise to get this old beauty looking sharp again. I just have never done this sort of thing before and wouldn't know what a fair/reasonable price might be.

Interesting about the HT4100 issues. More to think about. I know this heavy beast didn't appreciate being driven uphill for a long duration at a steady 65mph. I remember a shimmy sort of feeling building in the engine/front end that stopped if I decreased speed from the cruise control constant level HWY speed. No issues otherwise.

I really love this old car and this model's body styling.

 

There's a process using a clay bar which you can use to remove oxidation of paint. It's labor intense but also something you can try yourself. You can also ask a professional detail shop to see what they would charge for buffing out the paint. Buffing and clay bar will not fix chips or rust. If you have a tiny spot of rust on an edge like I see in the photo you can use a dental pick and clean the spot and then use a toothpick to touch with something get any remaining rust out or seal it (depends on the product). Then use a toothpick or touch-up brush to put touch-up paint on it.

Is there rust under the back edge where the top vinyl is gone or is that the fiberglass under shell which someone described?

The front of the car on all of my E-Bodies has been plastic or fiberglass, composite etc and not metal. So if you see chips on the nose they are chips only (no risk of rust). You could see if a professional place would repaint the front panel only if there a lot of chips. They should still quote removing the trim and grill but it depends on the job you are expecting because they can just mask instead of removing. Things like headlight molding is so easy to remove there would be almost no sense in leaving it on though.

Anthony "smokus" knows the HT4100 well. That engine needs to be well maintained. If you haven't changed the coolant I would look into doing it but even the professional machines at dealers don't do a perfect job. Someone with experience with the HT4100 should comment. If you really like this type of car in 1980 and 81 they used a different engine (cannot recall if the HT4100 started in 82 or 83). The 1980 would probably be the best with 368 because the 81 had the 8-6-4 version but while that version of the 368 had issues it can be disabled and there is at least one member who has one on the forum. My point is you could keep your eyes open if it doesn't need to be this exact car. I personally like the E-Body Eldorados, Toronados and Rivieras more but that's my opnion. The Toronado and Riv also have more common engine options (best probably 1979 with the Olds 350 which was also in the Eldorado but with EFI). The w/ EFI will also spark another long discussion.

 

That top was made as a bonnet and it looks like a front retainer and retainer across the back maybe hold it down. Fiberglass construction I believe. Probably made as a complete unit with the vinyl and lowered onto the car in the factory.
Here is the photo in the parts catalog.
GMPartsWiki - Cadillac Parts and Accessories Catalog June 1991

I didn't have my Seville re-painted yet but it needs a re-paint due to lacquer paint checking. Most cars of this era likely have checking by now especially if it has been out in the hot sun a lot.

I have an '86 Fleetwood Brougham that I got an estimate on and it has less chrome and the chrome it has is easily removed. About $6500+ is what I was quoted. That's without replacing the side bump molding that would need to be replaced. Another '86 I have I used Meguiar's G181116 polishing compound on the sides and the white paint cleaned up very good however the hood and trunk lid have checking. The paint shop thought maybe a 2 stage on those might match without doing a complete repaint.

One problem you will have is finding a shop to do a repaint. Most don't want to mess with it. They can earn more on a quicker turn around doing insurance work. A repaint you are tying up their paint booth longer.

One custom shop gave me an estimate in the mid $20K for a Fleetwood Brougham. Cough cough I don't think so....

 

I have always been told to replace the top before a re-paint and the upholstery and body shop work together if they find rust. The body shop does the surface repair if needed.

 

From the photo it looks like maybe they screwed that bonnet down along the rear sail panel and applied the vinyl after that which probably makes more sense as it went down the assembly line and the option color code would have told them what color vinyl to use.

 

I believe we discussed it in my posting on my Seville. Depending on the rear chrome trim used one was factory installed and another one was not factory. Yours was factory installed. It matches what the sales brochure photo's looked like. The trim like on mine with faux snaps was not factory.

 

Thanks for the price estimate on re-paint jobs and that wiki page with the old catalog. I love that there are people out there keeping this info alive.

I have used a bunch of Meguiar's products including a clay bar & ceramics after I picked up this vehicle. It did clean it up probably much better than just a run through a quick wash and wax drive through but the price vs result was iffy. It definitely was not like a TV infomercial before and after.

I googled: "lacquer paint checking", definitely don't have this issue. Sounds like ~$10,000 is what I am looking at for new vinyl and new paint.

 

I've tried numerous waxes and I have found Griot's Garage premium carnauba paste wax to be the best. An '84 Fleetwood Brougham I have with brown firemist paint the hood has some checking. I applied several layers of that wax and the checking is less noticeable. In fact the whole car looks great with that wax.
I see they have numerous polishing compounds also.

$10K puts that into the $30K to $40K used car price range today if you decide to sell it.

 

DB,
I would think a shop could pretty easily paint at least the hood and trunk deck of your car. I'm considering that for my Eldorado as the trunk deck has some checking; not really present on the hood but it's a large flat surface with the perfect orientation to the sun for fading. My car is original Western Saddle Firemist and I had the A-pillar repainted where a prior owner damaged the paint. It was basecoat clearcoat painted and looks good. I now wish I had them do the trunk at least but at the time I was thinking it might be good to have the original paint. The shop told me when they mixed the paint they had to remove almost all of the red. I thought that was interesting but probably makes sense that the sun selectively fades portions of the color. My reservation is whether or not I want to match 40 year old paint or if I should bite the bullet but the cost would be wildly different to paint the entire car.

With a white car, even though there are in fact many versions of white, it should be a lot easier job than with my car.

With the OP's car my thought is do the required maintenance and try to get the top looking good enough that it isn't bothersome thinking about driving it and drive it for a while to make certain it's still exactly this car that they want. Since a clay bar was used already I would take it to have it professionally buffed; first ask what they think and if they're not sure they could try the hood or trunk only to start. If those are the worst panels they could be painted separately. Marking the hinges and removing them plus any hood trim is the best way and also avoids overspray in the engine compartment.

 

With the OP's car my thought is do the required maintenance and try to get the top looking good enough that it isn't bothersome thinking about driving it and drive it for a while to make certain it's still exactly this car that they want.

This is very close to how I feel about the car and my thoughts when buying it. It is so much fun to drive. I LOVE it! But that vinyl needs some TLC to get back to 'acceptable' and I hope that doesn't cost many thousands to patch up. Otherwise I'll be 'in for a penny, in for a pound' and get this thing cleaned up REAL nice. At which point it might be cheaper to just search for someone's better condition Cadillac for sale.

Again thanks for all the PRO-tips guys. I'll check out Griot's Garage premium carnauba paste wax.

 

Having peeled a vinyl top or two I can tell you this is going to be ugly. I think one big reason you don't see as much vinyl these days is because they are rust magnets. Not even including the cost of the vinyl, to paint a car that once had a vinyl top is going to be close to double the price of painting one without. I spent a 100 hours repairing the roof on a Camaro I peeled the vinyl off of. Regarding replacing the vinyl, a very handy individual could likely do it himself, but the actual labor is pretty low, so I pay for professional installations. Last one was $350. Not worth the hassle. Something else to keep in mind is the trim that holds it down will also need replacing or repainting. This service won't be included or likely even be offered.

 

One difference with this particular top design seems to be the fiberglass shell underneath. Most tops don't have that. It was likely helpful in giving the design the shape close to a real convertible top.

I think that fiberglass likely changes the potential for corrosion underneath as several of us have recognized is a common risk of the typical top. My guess is the fiberglass under structure helped but if there is any motion at all the paint will be worn and the exposed (under the top though). I suspect it would look a lot like a pick-up with one of the hard plastic bed-liners removed; you see wear marks from tiny relative movement. Was there anything like gas tank straps between the metal and the fiberglass?

Scott