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Discussion Starter #1
Consumer Reports just released their latest reliability listing. Cadillac is just ahead of Chrysler at #32.

Here's the brand ranking, best to worst:

1. Scion

2. Honda

3. Toyota

4. Infiniti

5. Acura

6. Mitsubishi

7. Lexus

8. Hyundai

9. Porsche

10. Mercury

11. Saab

12.Subaru

13. Suzuki

14. Kia

15. Mazda

16. Ford

17. Nissan

18. Volvo

19. Buick

20. Lincoln

21. Volkswagen

22. Pontiac

23. Mercedes-Benz

24. Audi

25. Chevrolet

26. BMW

27. Mini

28. GMC

29. Saturn

30. Jeep

31. Dodge

32. Cadillac

33. Chrysler


I'm not surprised Chrysler is at the bottom, but I'm surprised Cadillac is second to last.
 

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2009 CTS DI AWD FE2 CRYSTAL RED TINTCOAT/LIGHT TITANIUM
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295 Posts
Consumer Reports is a crap publication that has no credibility at all. If you want reliable info use the automotive rating publications.
 

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2009 CTS DI AWD FE2 CRYSTAL RED TINTCOAT/LIGHT TITANIUM
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Rotflmao! :histeric:
 

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I disagree - CR is a very credible bird cage liner.
Too funny!
I have found CR to be somewhat helpful at times, but you have to read the ratings and explanations very carefully. They often take issue with things that many may not. I don't think you can totally discount what they say.
 

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2010 CTS-4 3.6 & 2008 SRX-4 V6
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950 Posts
Here's how I feel about CR:

Every testing group has its bias and, yes, CR has its own - what they are not is influenced by advertising; instead, they are influenced by their subscriber base and by their quest to expand it.

Their car reliability rating database is so influenced. Although it's a large database, it is a self-contained one and therefore has a built-in statistical integrity weakness. IOW, people who are attracted to CR's ratings and values are the subscribers who subsequently rate the cars. And CR markets the poop out of the survey to attract more like-minded subscribers. Does that invalidate the database's conclusions? No - for a car shopper looking for information, CR's survey is yet another source of information among a panoply they should be considering. Still, we cannot point to the survey as a pantheon of statiscal integrity that sheds light on universal truths about automotive superiority or reliability. Yes, the methodology weakness is that significant.

As for its tests, even choosing what characteristics to test and how to weight them involves value choices and that indicates a "bias". When CR makes these choices, is it a deliberate bias to favour one manufacturer over another? Probably not. Still, I suspect that these value choices (when designing their rating guide) are made in consideration of what the testers like. Like it or not, this is all but a dictionary definition of "bias". That does not invalidate the utility of CR's tests - as these biases are absolutely fine for the majority of shoppers who are looking for the same things.

As for kitchen appliances, I suspect that CR's testers would be as good as anybody else's. There are, though, other sources of information out there - just not always as comprehensive and trustworthy as CR's. Would I rely on them to guide me to my next car? Absolutely not.
 

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2008 CTS 3.6L DI RWD, GMPP new engine 11/2013
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C'mon guys, no need to shoot the messenger.

CONSUMER REPORTS surveyed individual owners of 1,400,000 vehicles. Of the forty-eight models included from GM's current lineup of Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, twenty had average reliability scores, and only one, the Malibu V6 sedan, was better than average. That's a searing indictment of old GM, and prologue for the future of USGovt-UAW-majority-owned new GM if they can't get their act together pronto.

I've owned many German, Japanese, and American cars, but the initial quality of my '08 CTS was/is the absolute worst of all. Two years later and my dealer is still trying to fix factory defects. I own and enjoy the car only because its style, overall performance, and competitive cost of ownership, for now, continue to outweigh GM/Cadillac's relatively poor manufacturing quality and reliability.
 

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2010 CTS-4 3.6 & 2008 SRX-4 V6
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C'mon guys, no need to shoot the messenger.

CONSUMER REPORTS surveyed individual owners of 1,400,000 vehicles. Of the forty-eight models included from GM's current lineup of Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, twenty had average reliability scores, and only one, the Malibu V6 sedan, was better than average. That's a searing indictment of old GM, and prologue for the future of USGovt-UAW-majority-owned new GM if they can't get their act together pronto.

I've owned many German, Japanese, and American cars, but the initial quality of my '08 CTS was/is the absolute worst of all. Two years later and my dealer is still trying to fix factory defects. I own and enjoy the car only because its style, overall performance, and competitive cost of ownership, for now, continue to outweigh GM/Cadillac's relatively poor manufacturing quality and reliability.
I'll shoot at CR all I want - it's a terrible rag that uses dubious statistical methods, is full of intrinsic biases and trumpets everywhere how unbiased it is and how comprehensive its database is. What I won't criticize, though, are the conclusions - because they may be coincidentally correct. And, while I had no issues on our recently-departed '09 CTS or on our (still intact) '08 SRX, we had more than our share on the '04 SRX.

IOW, I take your point about the reliability and I accept CR's finger pointing here but what I out-and-out reject is any positioning in any ranking. Still, I like that results like these put pressure on GM to improve the product. As a consumer, though, I just cannot rely on their findings - their statistical skills are that wanting and virtually anything they do with numbers is so completely and utterly lacking in credibility.

Keep in mind that only subscribers are canvassed - CR has 4M-7M subscribers (depending on who you listen to) and their response rate is not overwhelming: this year, CR claims it received "hundreds of thousands of responses". Hundreds of thousands? Out of a subscriber base of 4-7M? That's hardly impressive - I'm guessing a response rate of ~10%.

Now a 10% response rate is pretty decent in the public opinion research business but consider that we're not talking about the general population but rather a subscriber base. Further consider that this base is people who share CR's values and, because it's a lazy-a$$ed mailout/e-mail survey, the respondents are further self-selected. One can argue that phone surveys are no better but they do tend to reach more people who would otherwise not bother to respond - a practice that tends to yield fewer bimodal results (i.e. incidences of very happy and very unhappy reports).

Okay, so back to their numbers. There are, what 200M cars in the US? And CR's survey represents .7% of those (the 2009 survey covers 1.4M stretching over 10 MYs - IOW, not 1.4M current MY cars). Further consider that households with smaller cars and higher incomes tend to have a higher than average number of cars - approaching 3 cars per household (vs. the average of 2.2). Since this sounds a lot like CR's subscriber base, let's split the difference at 2.6 cars/CR household. Some simple math suggest thats, of the roughly 110M US households, ~540k are represented in the survey - or around 0.5% of households.

Now back to Cadillac...

Last year, GM sold 161,000 Cadillacs - or roughly 1.6% of the market - and 59,000 CTS cars. Let's be generous and suggest that Cadillac buyers are well represented in CR's database. Now, it's unlikely that there would be any multiple new CTS owners in CR's subscriber base so, let's just apply that 0.5% figure to CTS sales: That would mean that we would expect a whopping total of 295 surveys on a given MY of the CTS returned to CR. That's still not insignificant but, when you consider the filters the respondents go through (you have to be a subscriber and you have to choose to respond to the survey), it doesn't have enough integrity to rank the result against anything else.

It also doesn't mean that Cadillac doesn't have quality problems.

My apologies for the long rant - unfortunately, my past (in statistics, public opinion research, and research and analysis) sometimes gets in the way of a calm discussion about CR.

And don't even get me started about the ridiculous safety index... :bomb:
 

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Cadillac 08 CTS
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Thank you, Northern SRX.
A voice of reason in the wilderness.
I too, read auto reviews with a degree of caution. The "Source" of the input is critical. I used to joke with my co-workers at the lunch table the even though I owned a Riveria, I replied to CR surveys stating that I owned a Honda.
And I hated it.
 

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2008 CTS 3.6L DI RWD, GMPP new engine 11/2013
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2,092 Posts
Apples to oranges...

The cited J. D. Power's Vehicle Dependability Study is exclusively based on 3-year-old vehicles. It excludes vehicles manufactured after 2006, so it does NOT include 2nd gen CTS and many other recent new models. Might be worth looking at if you're shopping for a used car.

On the other hand, Consumer Reports Reliability Survey includes participants' experiences with their vehicles over the course of the previous 12 months. Accordingly, CR includes 2nd gen CTS and many other recent new models, and the survey covers up to 10 model years.
 

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2014 SRX Premium w/20" chrome
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I never take one report as being Gospel. Therefore I don't get my shorts all in a knot because of a single report, regardless if I like the publication or not. I use all the information I compile and make my decision.
 

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2010 CTS-4 3.6 & 2008 SRX-4 V6
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Apples to oranges...

The cited J. D. Power's Vehicle Dependability Study is exclusively based on 3-year-old vehicles. It excludes vehicles manufactured after 2006, so it does NOT include 2nd gen CTS and many other recent new models. Might be worth looking at if you're shopping for a used car.

On the other hand, Consumer Reports Reliability Survey includes participants' experiences with their vehicles over the course of the previous 12 months. Accordingly, CR includes 2nd gen CTS and many other recent new models, and the survey covers up to 10 model years.
I think I already shot my wad about CR here, so I won't damage my credibility any further by appearing to be a dog on a bone but, frankly, I much prefer JDP's survey methodology to the hodge podge employed by CR - because JDP has to sell their surveys to a more demanding audience, they has to be sound and they are.

BTW, like you, I have owned many many imported cars. In fact, once upon a time, I would never ever consider buying a domestic - my first came in 2000 - after over 20 years of owning exclusively Japanese and European cars. Even more, once upon a time, I would never ever consider buying a car that wasn't recommended by CR. My most troublesome cars to date? A Volvo and a Nissan that were recommended and the '04 SRX that wasn't. Guess which one I preferred driving? My least troublesome ever? A 2000 Pontiac Bonneville that CR didn't recommend.
 
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