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1995 Sedan De Ville (4.9 L)
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Discussion Starter #1
I think the armature in the starter in my 95 Sedan DeVille is dying based on the
discussion in one of the great threads here. When the engine warms up, I may not be able to restart the car right away. I have to wait for a while to cool the starter down...

Well, I have decided to change the armature. I called up one rebuild place near Chicago. They said there are two types of armatures for SD250. One with bushings for $25 and another with bearings for $28. They said they don't know which is right for me. It sounds one with bearings is better, but I am not sure if it fits in my starter.

Does anybody know which one is for a 4.9 in 95 Sedan DeVille or if they are interchangable?

Thank you!
 

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100 said:
I think the armature in the starter in my 95 Sedan DeVille is dying based on the
discussion in one of the great threads here. When the engine warms up, I may not be able to restart the car right away. I have to wait for a while to cool the starter down...
Well, I have decided to change the armature. I called up one rebuild place near Chicago. They said there are two types of armatures for SD250. One with bushings for $25 and another with bearings for $28. They said they don't know which is right for me. It sounds one with bearings is better, but I am not sure if it fits in my starter.
Does anybody know which one is for a 4.9 in 95 Sedan DeVille or if they are interchangable?
Thank you!
I bought a SD250 armature last summer for $30 (used but in good condition) from a starter place. I had the same restart when hot problem. I think they all sell remanufactured. Then I decided to just replace whole starter with a reman ACDelco. I can give my armature to you if you wish. Free of course. There were some brass bushings on it. I am afraid they mean the same bushings when they say "bearings".
 

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94 Fleetwood Brougham
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I bought a new one from a alternator/starter shop in Pell Lake, WI. $25 new. If you get up to that area drop me a line, I'll give you his #. He will rebuild it all for you for $75, but a rebuilt one at NAPA is only $50. He used to resolder the failure prone connection, but it still failed in a year or 2. So he only puts in new.

I agree, that bushing maybe what they mean, as I haven't seen a bearing in them.
 

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1995 Sedan De Ville (4.9 L)
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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks, N0DIH!

adalla sent me his extra one for free, but I gave him $15. As soon as I get it, I will put it in my car. Actually, I found a good website (http://www.aceelectric.com/). They said they sell their products to only professionals, but they told me where the closest shop that has parts. That was how I got to know the shop I mentioned in the previous post. Well, the new armature with bushings was $25 there. The armature with bearings (the person at that shop said that is also for SD250, but no one else seems to know about the armature with bearings for SD250...) was for $28, but he said it was a rebuilt one. I got an impression that there are two different armatures (one with bushings, another with bearings), but who knows...

Anyway, I think I don't need to drive up to WI to get a good deal. If there is someone who is planning to get a new (or rebuilt) armature, checking up the website (specifically, this site: http://www.wai-wetherill.com/contacts/locationmap.cfm) and calling the local distributor would help finding the closest shop.

I will let you know how it will turn out soon...
 

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94 Fleetwood Brougham
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I work in Libertyville, we could always meet too if you ever end up needing one. Just PM me, or catch me on the RWD forums, I frequent there a lot.

Just take a good look over the ones you have, polish them up, and put them in. Look for corrosion on the contacts where it contacts the wires going into the coils. That is where it fails at. VERY common problem. That is the SD250, aka 5MT starter. Used on small block GM engines all over. Even my 301 Turbo had a 5MT. My 307 Olds had a 5MT. VERY common.
 

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1995 Sedan De Ville (4.9 L)
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Discussion Starter #6
Although I haven't gotton the armature yet, since I was changing oil today, I was trying to see how it would be to remove the starter. Well, I didn't try very hard, but even removing the heat shield was pretty difficult. I couldn't loosen the nut holding the shield at the bottom.

First of all, I think the nut is 3/8 inch, not metric 9 or 10 mm. Is this correct? Then, from which side should I attack, from the bottom of the car or from the top? Getting there from the top was very difficult. From the bottom, I was able to get there, but there was not enough space to rotate the wrench.

Rotella 15W-40 was very thick, almost like honey at ~30 F. I was quite impressed that my car doesn't have any trouble starting it at single digit temperature...

Anyway, thanks!
 

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94 Fleetwood Brougham
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My 91 Deville was quite easy to do. Just don't follow the FSM, it is wrong for a Deville (may be right for a Seville/Eldo though).

I can do it with my eyes closed now (did it a couple times already....)

15mm socket to remove front bolt
15mm deep socket to remove rear bolt
11/32 wrench or nutdriver to remove solenoid start wire
1/2 or 9/16" socket to disconnect batt wire to remove batt wire to starter
5/16" wrench to disconnect battery.
6in and 12in extensions needed
universal joint very helpful on front joint
10mm socket to remove dust shield (is 10mm on 91)

Just don't let the starter hang on those wires! That is hard on them and they get bent into odd positions.
 

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1995 FWB 124,*** miles
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The shield is to protect the starter from the heat radiated by the exhaust manifold. NODIH, BTW thanks for teaching to not remove the exhaust manifold (per service manual) but rather push the front of the starter up and pull its bottom down.
 

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1995 FWB 124,*** miles
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Katshot said:
For the life of me, I can't imagine why anyone would rebuild their starter rather than replace it totally.
Real enthusiasts do not replace parts but rather fix them (if it is possible)! LOL
 

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94 Fleetwood Brougham
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Easy one. I don't want someone else's junk. I don't know how much was rebuilt, or how much abuse it got, but my starters get taken care of and not abused. Eventually something wears out and I replace it.

I can't tell you how many times I have bought "rebuilts" only to take it back off in a 6 months to bring it back for another one, sure, warranty is nice, but dang, if I am doing it again, it sorta defeats the purpose!

I got burned pretty good on alternators, never on starters. Those crappy CS130's bite. They burn up the bearings front AND back! My 91 Bonneville is one of the most reliable cars made, but save 1 major issue. The CS130. I went through 2 of them in 3 years!! Rebuilt ones too (they make that one tough to rebuild, and that one isn't worth rebuilding most of the time due to excessive heat) I finally put a 91 Cadillac 4.9L CS144 on it and it went 4 years without a hickup. The regulator finally went on the fritz and I had a hard time getting a new one in a hurry so I finally sprung for Autozone's "totally redesigned" CS130 replacement. I wanted to rebuild mine, but with them making parts difficult and me under the gun, I had to suck up the $125 to replace it + $50 core (I am NOT giving up my CS144!). Well, in the 2-3 years it has been on, it has been just fine. I can't complain.

So, nutshell, I like my stuff, GM FSM's cover rebuilding well, and I do as I can. Sometimes I can't, but I always try hard to. Most of the time the rebuilt one is far MORE expensive than fixing mine. Rarely is a repair over $25.
 

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1995 Sedan De Ville (4.9 L)
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Discussion Starter #13

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Discussion Starter #14
Katshot said:
For the life of me, I can't imagine why anyone would rebuild their starter rather than replace it totally.
Well, if someone gave me a brand new one, sure, why not. But since I feel that I know what is broken (armature, not something else, hopefully), it is natural to replace the only broken part for me. Besides, it is cheaper. I think everyone has a different threshold about what is the smallest unit for replacement. I am not that enthusiastic to replace a coil in an broken armature...
 

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70 Fleetwood, 87 and 90 Brougham, 94 Fleetwood
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Hard cranking when hot is also very often caused by poor field couls. Inspect them very closely for signs of overheating.
Armatures go bad too, like you are thinking. I have seen them burn through the solder at the commutator. No easy fix for that, just replacement.
If the field coils are bad, then the casing is scrap. The pole shoes are welded in making field coil replacement impossible. You will have to obtain another casing.
You may want to go to the wreckers and by a couple of cores for parts, then you will have suffievt parts to rebuild yours. I would go to a reputable rebuilder and buy the bits you need to do a good job.
I have always rebuilt all my own alternators and starters. I know when they are done, they will be good. Cheap remans are just that. Components are not up to the standards that we expect.
Mike
 

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If you buy crap rebuilds, yeah but as long as you buy quality parts, a rebuilt component will generally perform fine. The problem with rebuilding them yourself is that in most cases, you won't come close to servicing all the parts that a quality rebuilder would, and you have little or no experience to know what specifically goes bad in the component so you won't know what to look at to diagnose worn items. On top of that, very few vehicle owners have the test equipment for properly testing the component before and after so are therefore simply throwing parts at the component in hopes that it will fix it. In the end, unless you COMPLETELY rebuild the component, you're likely not doing a thorough job, and if you do, chances are you'll spend more on the job than the rebuilt would cost. On top of all this, at least with the rebuilt unit, you'll have a warranty.
 

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'80 Fleetwood Coupe, 1994 and 1995 Mercedes 140 Coupe
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Katshot said:
If you buy crap rebuilds, yeah but as long as you buy quality parts, a rebuilt component will generally perform fine. The problem with rebuilding them yourself is that in most cases, you won't come close to servicing all the parts that a quality rebuilder would, and you have little or no experience to know what specifically goes bad in the component so you won't know what to look at to diagnose worn items. On top of that, very few vehicle owners have the test equipment for properly testing the component before and after so are therefore simply throwing parts at the component in hopes that it will fix it. In the end, unless you COMPLETELY rebuild the component, you're likely not doing a thorough job, and if you do, chances are you'll spend more on the job than the rebuilt would cost. On top of all this, at least with the rebuilt unit, you'll have a warranty.
You must be blessed with a decent rebuilder. It seems this is not the case for several others. There are a lot of crappy rebuilders out there.
All my old Cadillacs have starters with 8 Volt coils and the newest alternator that I can scrounge that will fit. The starters were originally rebuilt about 20 years ago by a GOOD rebuilder. When an old alternator goes west I just chuck it because the later ones work better.
 

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Aside from a growler, most all of the test equipment you need, you will have on hand.

I rebuild all of my own stuff, and test all the components with an ohmeter, battery and a test light. All parts that may be questionable get replaced with quality components. Wear parts such as bearings, brushes, bushings, drive gears and solenoids always get replced no matter their outward condition. I always replace voltage regulators and diode trios on alternators and stators if there is any questions.

I sand blast the housings and thoroughly clean any other parts that may be damaged by the sand blaster. The result is a component that is as good as any quality rebuild, and it looks it too. I have always had good service with any components that I rebuild. They last for many years with no trouble.

Mike
 

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1995 FWB 124,*** miles
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Besides, you get that special feeling when you fix a part yourself and it works fine!
 

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guidematic said:
Aside from a growler, most all of the test equipment you need, you will have on hand.


Mike
And you can get away with the sniffer for fresh short checks.
 
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