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Discussion Starter #1
Our determining factor is SAFETY, which everyone seems to think the government or some magical force is watching over it for us. Mine are Safety, reliability, ergonomics, appearance and cost to run. in that order. For example, my friend with a Cavalier now knows his car is only 1 star for side-impact!! He does not care. (based on the NHTSA website) There is a high to severe chance of being crippled in this car. Now, in North America, they said on the news that they may not crash test independantly anymore! When they start doing this, you can bet that car companies will cut even more corners on safety to save more profit. I think people need to be concerned about how safe their car is!
 

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Ralph said:
Now, in North America, they said on the news that they may not crash test independantly anymore! When they start doing this, you can bet that car companies will cut even more corners on safety to save more profit.
How much is the bet?;)

Side impact airbags increase cost now, but are not mandated buy the NHTSA. So they would be non-existant if car companies where evil corporations killing people to make an extra dollar.

Saftey sells. You just stated it as a priority. Do you think you are the only consumer who does? What sells, is what they make. Plus, they don't want the Governement stepping in and mandating flawed technology, so they leap frog them and do it first.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
HotRodSaint said:
How much is the bet?;)

Side impact airbags increase cost now, but are not mandated buy the NHTSA. So they would be non-existant if car companies where evil corporations killing people to make an extra dollar.

Saftey sells. You just stated it as a priority. Do you think you are the only consumer who does? What sells, is what they make. Plus, they don't want the Governement stepping in and mandating flawed technology, so they leap frog them and do it first.
As for car companies being "evil corporations killing people" well there are more than enough lawsuits on the subject. Case in point, Ford Pinto, we studied this one in economics class, even though I am a Clinical Counsellor, Ford Knew that placing a part in each Pinto for a total cost of 75 cents per vehicle would save lives! Even their own testing confirmed this! They went ahead without it and the end result is it was cheaper to have people die and then sue in court than spend the 75 cents!

Case in point: Chevy half ton's from 1974-'79, (this one is from memory) something about the gas tank not being within the frame and during a side impact, KABOOM. It happens. Once again, cheaper to have people in court for ten years, 'cause many give up, or go broke in the process trying to get some justice.

Case in point: GM X-car (we own one) During a sudden braking action, some cars went into a violent spin because of locking rear brakes. GM just settled this one a few years ago I believe. Some people were killed.

I used to work for a security company and they laid people off because it was cheaper to have one person robbed or killed (the chance of it) than have more guards protected loading a money machine!

So no, I don't really trust any company, they are a business after all and out for the almighty dollar. I do believe in continued independant testing by all safety organizations out there, including the government, it keeps them straight. IMO.

Safety does sell, to me, and I WAS the only person, so far, to mention it. I really don't think many people care about safety, they want to have fun driving and look good. Well we should be safe as well. PS I was in a bad car accident and I am glad I was in a heavy car, but thats another story for another time..:)
 

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Ralph said:
As for car companies being "evil corporations killing people" well there are more than enough lawsuits on the subject.
Attitudes have changed since these '70's examples you gave. Why do you think these company not only try to get 4 or more stars, but make a big public stink about it when they get less than that?

It is probably the bad publicity of those past law suits that have 'forced' them into this position. It might be the public that has become more aware of these issues that is keeping these companies honest.
 

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Ralph said:
Case in point: Chevy half ton's from 1974-'79, (this one is from memory) something about the gas tank not being within the frame and during a side impact, KABOOM. It happens. Once again, cheaper to have people in court for ten years, 'cause many give up, or go broke in the process trying to get some justice.
Actually I think GM's argument in this one was that the vehicle met all Federal safety standards at the time. They just weren't ready to accept liablity for following the laws. So indirectly, they were inferring that the Fed's had no clue about saftey.
 

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Yes, okay, it's not a perfect place for a gas tank, but statistically those trucks have no worse a record than anyone else's.

And, of course, GM showed some backbone when it came to the TV show '20/20' rigging one to explode with a model rocket engine - they hit the network over the head with a few lawyers until they (the network, not the lawyers) said 'Uncle'.

They learned from the jobbing that '60 Minutes' gave Audi over the whole 'unintended acceleration' crap - wherein a car was shown to jump forward when shifted into gear, but what WASN'T said was that the transmission had been specifically modified to make it do that, and that what was being demonstrated could never happen with a production-model Audi transmission. CBS should have been hauled into court and made to grab their corporate ankles over that one.
 

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JEM said:
Yes, okay, it's not a perfect place for a gas tank, but statistically those trucks have no worse a record than anyone else's.

And, of course, GM showed some backbone when it came to the TV show '20/20' rigging one to explode with a model rocket engine - they hit the network over the head with a few lawyers until they (the network, not the lawyers) said 'Uncle'.

They learned from the jobbing that '60 Minutes' gave Audi over the whole 'unintended acceleration' crap - wherein a car was shown to jump forward when shifted into gear, but what WASN'T said was that the transmission had been specifically modified to make it do that, and that what was being demonstrated could never happen with a production-model Audi transmission. CBS should have been hauled into court and made to grab their corporate ankles over that one.
Yea, good old 60 Minutes. I forgot about that trickery.
 

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Ralph,

You bring good points, but now a days, people like to sue big corporations, and get away with it. Juries usually side with people and not corporations. Anyway, that one life now could be worth billions. Case in point, the tobacco fiasco.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
CadillacDan said:
Ralph,

You bring good points, but now a days, people like to sue big corporations, and get away with it. Juries usually side with people and not corporations. Anyway, that one life now could be worth billions. Case in point, the tobacco fiasco.
I know, in 1980 my dad died of lung cancer, back then no one even thought of sueing, especially in Canada!:banghead:
 

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Ralph said:
I know, in 1980 my dad died of lung cancer, back then no one even thought of sueing, especially in Canada!:banghead:
Sorry to hear that.

My grandmother was diagnosed with lung cancer and was told by the doctor to stop smoking. But she didn't. She 'enjoyed' smoking until her last breath.

No one in our family considered, or even mentioned, suing anyone. That's the way she raised us. She beleived that adults are responsible for their own actions.

We have been informed of the health risks of smoking for many, many years. It's our responsibility to use the information provided wisely or else face the consequences.

No one is to blame for my grandmothers death, but her.
 

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Although personally I agree with much of what HotRod says, it is beneficial to examine both sides of the argument. The tobacco industry has for many years made untold billions of dollars off of the (eventual) suffering of it's customers. Smoking and chewing have long been glamorized and marketed to children and young adults. The extreme addictiveness of these poisons is not advertised however, and by the time most users determine they have a nasty, unhealthy habit which they want to kick they find they cannot. Big Tobacco had internal knowledge of the health hazards for a long, long time which was covered up, than denied. The cost (in dollars, not to mention human suffering) to society in health care costs, work days lost, accidents (fires, car wrecks, etc.) is staggering.

Longtime smokers from generations before ours had no clue they were slowly killing themselves until it was too late.

Tobacco is one of the few (maybe only) legal products that is addictive and inherently dangerous to human life when used as intended.
 

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the Sandman said:
(This thread should be split off BTW).

Tobacco is one of the few (maybe only) legal products that is addictive and inherently dangerous to human life when used as intended.
Which means logically that our governments should be held financially responsible in any lawsuits since they continue to allow this product to be sold despite the well documented health risks.

But then our modern world isn't very logical, is it?
 

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HotRodSaint said:
Which means logically that our governments should be held financially responsible in any lawsuits since they continue to allow this product to be sold despite the well documented health risks.

But then our modern world isn't very logical, is it?
Ahh, but remember "our government" is...us! We are a democratic, capitalistic society with a leadership we elect. The fact that tobacco is still tolerated at all shows how strong the Tobacco Lobby and smokers still are. And of course there is still the issue of free will in our free society. But then again, look at the strides that have been made - who would have imagined 20 years ago that most public places would be smoke free, that Big Tobacco would lose lawsuits, and that the anti-smoking campaigns would have become so pervasive?

For better or worse, major changes in the behavior of our society take a long time, measured in generations, not years.
 

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Has anyone ever hit the curb while going 50+ in a low car? I remember hitting it with the jeep, didn't feel too good. Thats about the only safety advantage SUVs have over cars. They can run over unexpected things in the road. (or go off it :D)
 

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Cars are SO much safer now than ever before and people keep getting killed in car wrecks. When your # is up its time to go. It may be the side impact that takes you out or your air bag could break your neck.
All you can do is buy the safest car you can afford and drive it FAST. That way you will be gone before the accident happens.
My grandmother died 20 yrs. ago at age 88. She smoked, although that didnt kill her. She would say, as she lit her cig. "Heres another nail in my coffin."
Regardless of what the cig. cos. said anyone with half a brain knew that cigs. were not good for them. Do something stupid and then blaim someone else for your stuipdity. That seems to be the new "American Way". Where in the hell has the notion that we are responsible for our own actions gone? This "feel good" society has created a real bunch of whiners that are willing to give up their freedom of choice for the protection of govt. from themselves.
OK enough of that...Break time...Smoke em if you got em.
 

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Sounds like you had some steam to blow off.........
 

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kempie said:
Where in the hell has the notion that we are responsible for our own actions gone? This "feel good" society has created a real bunch of whiners that are willing to give up their freedom of choice for the protection of govt. from themselves.
OK enough of that...Break time...Smoke em if you got em.

Well said! My Dad died of lung cancer in '94. All my life I remember him saying tht he was lighting up another coffin nail....He was and he knew it! Nice thing about him was he was smart enough to take personal responsibility for it. No sniveling about not being told that it would make him sick!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Also, don't forget that occasionally they show clips on tv of doctors smoking in the 1950's and '60's! It was politically correct and the social thing to do on certain occasions, still is. There is debate up here that if you smoke and get emphesema, or lung cancer, you should not get health coverage, because it raises the taxes for all the non-smokers as well. Did you know that a cigarette has 400 carcinogens when not lit, and 4,000 when lit! I wonder how many auto accidents have been caused by someone dropping a cig and reaching for it while driving!? Have you noticed that some cars like Chryslers don't even have ashtrays and lighters now, they make you order them as an option. I wonder if this means more people are not smoking and they are gearing toward the majority?
 
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