Cadillac Owners Forum banner
  • Hey everyone! Enter your ride HERE to be a part of JUNE's Ride of the Month Challenge!

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
1995 Eldorado/Slate (R.I.P.) 1997 STS, 2002 Eldorado ETC
Joined
·
294 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay gang, here's the problem. As some know, drive kicked out on me a little more than a week ago.

I was getting a CKP error, and have since changed them out. (18" ratchet extension with a swivel does the trick just fine)

Now, can SOMEONE tell me WTH is going on:

The starter cranks the flywheel but doesn't turn the belt side of the motor. I can put a ratchet on the crank (belt side) and turn easily, and can see the flywheel moving on the other side.
No current codes, as she hasn't started since the breakdown.

What am I dealing with here? :banghead:

Thanks, as usual.
 

·
Registered
1996 Eldorado
Joined
·
2,814 Posts
Its either the starter drive magnet is not pushing the drive in or you have a tooth missing on the flywheel. Can you hear the starter drive clunking-in? The starter may have a bad connection to the magnet or the magnet failed altogether yet the motor turns.

Grab that harmonic balancer & turn the crank a bit to move the flywheel to a spot with teeth on the ring gear if the flywheel is damaged.

I may be unlikely but the starter could loosen its mount & tip back & be clearing the flywheel, not engaging.
 

·
Registered
2001 GMC SLT, Malibu LTZ, 99 STS studded with NP
Joined
·
499 Posts
now that sounds bad, when ya turn it over with the bar or starter motor do you here and feel any compresion?? Does the water pump belt turn while cranking or by turning harmonic balancer?? Almost sounds like a broken crankshaft. You are turning the bolt clockwise??
 

·
Registered
1995 Eldorado/Slate (R.I.P.) 1997 STS, 2002 Eldorado ETC
Joined
·
294 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
now that sounds bad, when ya turn it over with the bar or starter motor do you here and feel any compresion?? Does the water pump belt turn while cranking or by turning harmonic balancer?? Almost sounds like a broken crankshaft. You are turning the bolt clockwise??
@Johnny - I took the starter out, and bench tested it, it's good.. Flywheel is okay.

Joe: Yeah, it doesn't sound good but how can I turn the balancer and see the flywheel moving on the other side, if the crank is broken. Yes, I've been turning clockwise but something just doesn't add up. -Then again, I've never had a crankshaft break on me. If it did break, there was no "sound" of anything major going on. Just plain odd.

Haven't looked at the water pump belt, and she's outside in the dark. I'll check that when the sun comes up. Thanks!
 

·
Registered
1996 Eldorado
Joined
·
2,814 Posts
The front of the crank turns the ring gear -
The starter checks out good & you saw it "throw" the drive gear into engagement position then spring back, not just spin the starter gear-
Has a good mounting-

Yet the starter just spins. It is not turning the ring gear right? Time for a drink.
 

·
Super Moderator
2010 DTS
Joined
·
88,148 Posts
The starter cranks the flywheel but doesn't turn the belt side of the motor.
Ouch! That does not sound good at all. Broken flex plate maybe? Hard to imagine how this could happen by just changing the CKP sensors.
 

·
Registered
1995 Eldorado/Slate (R.I.P.) 1997 STS, 2002 Eldorado ETC
Joined
·
294 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ouch! That does not sound good at all. Broken flex plate maybe? Hard to imagine how this could happen by just changing the CKP sensors.
Not sure Ranger, I'm open to any and all suggestions.
The car had broken down over a week ago.. (after the CKP post I made). I lost drive while throttling up the road, then she stalled out. I wasn't able to restart, so had it towed and let her sit..changed the CKPs when I had the time. I thought maybe it was sheared torque converter bolts, or something of that sort by the way she lost drive.
 

·
Registered
1995 Eldorado/Slate (R.I.P.) 1997 STS, 2002 Eldorado ETC
Joined
·
294 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The front of the crank turns the ring gear -
The starter checks out good & you saw it "throw" the drive gear into engagement position then spring back, not just spin the starter gear-
Has a good mounting-

Yet the starter just spins. It is not turning the ring gear right? Time for a drink.
Johnny: I yanked the starter after I put a breaker on the balancer and saw the flywheel moved on that end. I turned the flywheel completely, and saw all teeth present. Had my wife crank the starter and watched the flywheel from underneath and it was turning. The water pump isn't moving, nor is the balancer on the other end. I had that whole underside rebuilt about 80k miles ago.
 

·
Super Moderator
2010 DTS
Joined
·
88,148 Posts
I can't imagine a broken crankshaft, but it does sound like you have a disconnect between the ring gear (flywheel) and the rest of the motor. The TC is not part of this equation.
 

·
Registered
1995 Eldorado/Slate (R.I.P.) 1997 STS, 2002 Eldorado ETC
Joined
·
294 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I can't imagine a broken crankshaft, but it does sound like you have a disconnect between the ring gear (flywheel) and the rest of the motor. The TC is not part of this equation.
True, a broken crank is almost impossible. Your premise of a broken/cracked flexplate is eye opening though. If you look at the big picture, no crank to the motor but the flexplate moves with the starter. On the other side of the flywheel, you have the TC, thus the loss of drive. It looks like I'm going to have to drop the tranny for a the second time in 6 months. It's almost my bet, that when I had the tranny swapped, someone didn't put loctite on the bolts, and they either backed out or sheared. This also sounds like a reason why I was getting the CKP codes. When I took the old ones out, and took a reading (resistances received thanks to Submariner) -they were still good at 1k Ohms. I just changed them out anyhow, since I was there.

I appreciate the insight Ranger. Sometimes, when it is your own problem, it is difficult to get down to the nuts and bolts. (How far are you from Frankfort b.t.w.?.. I have an old friend living up in Ill.)
 

·
Registered
1996 Eldorado
Joined
·
2,814 Posts
You would have to think a broken flex plate would be very noisey. The 8 bolts fastening it are very strong & the flex plate could never shear them. It probably cracked all the way around & the TC pushed back into the pump cleaing the crank flange making it silent.

See if the flywheel has thrust play(in-out). The flex plate doesn't allow much flex any movement would be spring loaded.

This doesn't explain the engine not cranking. That could only be a broken crank shaft.

That wouldn't explain why the turning the front crank & seeing the TC/flexplate rotation.
 

·
Registered
2001 GMC SLT, Malibu LTZ, 99 STS studded with NP
Joined
·
499 Posts
what does it sound like when you hit the starter any compres. or resistance?? The flywheel might turn when turning the harmonic balancer bolt, even if the flywheel is broke. Need to know if you hear any resistance with the starter. A broken flywheel will useualy make a lot of noise or a vibration before it gets this bad
 

·
Registered
1995 Eldorado/Slate (R.I.P.) 1997 STS, 2002 Eldorado ETC
Joined
·
294 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
When I hit the starter, it just whirrs like the flywheel is turning and nothing else.

Well, I turned the balancer and the water pump pulley is moving as well. Johnny.. That picture could possibly be my problem, as just that end has no business to it.

Joe.. No resistance on the starter end, but I'm getting compression on the balancer end. I doubt it's the crank, but that's wishful thinking.
 

·
Super Moderator
2010 DTS
Joined
·
88,148 Posts
When I hit the starter, it just whirrs like the flywheel is turning and nothing else.
Now it's starting to sound like the starter pinion is not even engaging the flywheel ring gear.
 

·
Registered
1996 Eldorado
Joined
·
2,814 Posts
There is a small space down at the ex.crossover pipe where you can see the TC/flexplate and look for rotation.

Does the TC turn with starter engagement?

I am still not clear what the starter is doing.
 

·
Registered
1995 Eldorado/Slate (R.I.P.) 1997 STS, 2002 Eldorado ETC
Joined
·
294 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Now it's starting to sound like the starter pinion is not even engaging the flywheel ring gear.
The flywheel is turning, but that's all it's doing. There is no crank to the motor from the starter end BUT when I turn the balancer, everything seems to be in order on that end and I can even see the flywheel moving (weird). I feel compression in the motor, and the water pump pulley turns. I'm thinking that Johnny's picture might be what happened. There was a tapping sound coming from the bell housing area before all hell broke (or came) loose.

Edit: Now, I'm assuming if the crank was broken.. there would be all kinds of clanging going on in the bottom end of the motor when I turn the balancer. Yes?
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top