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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I inquired about a 5BW though a dealer last summer & got one as buddy let it go. They will deliver to my house this Thursday. I’ve been promised a 23’ allocation so will flip this one in the fall. Selling for upwards of $180 000 up here in Canada only a few cars hoping I can make a few bucks & pay cash for my 23’ with a few bucks left over. They are becoming a bit of a unicorn. See what the market dictates. Best of luck everyone else with getting their orders.
 

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Better hope any modifications in this very recent new practice from GM does not affect your plans:


Dear GM Dealership Team,

We are continuing to build momentum as we head into the second half of the year and have started shipments of several of our high demand and limited production products.

This letter serves as a follow-up to my communication from January of this year, where we reiterated your contractual requirements and our policies on selling new vehicles for resale. When vehicles are quickly resold, particularly by unauthorized dealers or other resellers that do not adhere to GM’s standards, the customer experience suffers and GM’s brands are damaged. As a result, on certain high demand enthusiast products, we are limiting the transferability of certain warranties and barring the seller from placing future sold orders or reservations for certain high demand models (as identified by GM) if the vehicle is resold within the first 12 months of ownership. These changes are being implemented to ensure an exemplary customer experience, to ensure our brands remain strong, and to help prioritize ownership by brand enthusiasts and loyal customers. These changes will not impact product recalls in any way.

Currently, the products impacted by these changes include the following: 23MY Cadillac Escalade-V, Chevrolet Corvette Z06, and GMC HUMMER EV (SUT and SUV). Certain warranties will not be transferrable if the original owner resells the vehicle within one year of delivery.

In the coming days, you will receive a message from your respective brands that will outline full details of the warranties and the customer acknowledgement requirements to implement this new process. Thank you in advance for continuing to do your part in ensuring our customers have great experiences when purchasing these truly special products.

If you have any questions or comments, please reach out to your Zone Manager.

Regards,


Steve Carlisle
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The vehicles they mention are produced in much higher numbers & attract a totally different buyer. Majority of the auto industry does not even know what a CT5 vBW is. They do not mention the CT5 vBW not that it may be added to the list. Market conditions are market conditions I just want to build a 120th anniversary edition exactly as I want.
 

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What GM is doing is wrong. Warranties should transfer. Buyer beware.
Perhaps, but it is a reaction to the greedy flippers out there that caused the issue. It's not a new problem, but one that has been exacerbated by the current lack of inventory. Enthusiasts are put at a disadvantage by people that take up their possible allocations just so they can flip a car for money. They can keep the car for a year and be fine. Anyone that does not like the rules can stay away.
 

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Firstly, these are not selling for $180k up here in Canada; they are being advertised for numbers approaching that - big difference. Sure, they'll take the asking price if anybody is sufficiently rich and stupid to bite. These are great cars but they're not worth anything approaching $180k.

Secondly, I got the message in the letter read to me very strongly by my Cadillac dealership when I got put on the waiting list for a 2023 5BW. In addition, they told me that GM Canada will take sanctions against dealerships that buy or sell these vehicles above MSRP if new and, if used, before they are at least 6 months AND 12,000 kms old. The way the explained the message in the letter to me, it is the original owner that must be the only person for whom the warranty will apply for the first 12 months once the car is registered. After that, it's fully transferrable. My dealership might have been confused about this last part applying to the 5BW (as it is not listed in the letter quoted above).

I personally think these are reasonable steps, provided there is a process where you could apply for an exception. Not a big fan of greedy flippers when there are real enthusiasts out there who want to own these and just can't get an allocation.
 

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The fun fact: regarding Keynesian Economics, the relationship of supply vs demand comes pricing power. If you have a product or a service that people are lined up out the door to buy and there is a limit to supply, you can command even unreasonable pricing power in that situation. If supply and demand are generally in equilibrium, then your asking price is likely what you will get. When supply is more than demand, then the customer can control the price of said items or services and it is up to the seller to decide how much relative profit they want to make or lose. I am not defending dealers from marking up their products if they have customers lined up to buy them. But with a free market society comes shrapnel of unfortunately realities or inconvenient truths. If the buyer of a GM product wants to sell it privately a minute after owning it, that is their prerogative. If they can sell it for a higher price than if they bought it at the dealer, then have at it. There are risks in those transactions for the buyer and the seller inherent in private transactions. If GM wants to sanction that customer from buying more of their products, that is stupid from an economics perspective. It is my understanding that if you want to buy a new Ferrari, you first have to own a used one before you can have the opportunity of buying a new one. If I am wrong about that please forgive me as that is my working understanding. I reserve the right to be wrong in that assessment if I am. Regardless, assuming that is right, what Ferrari is saying with that standard is you are not worthy to buy a new Ferrari unless you go through the costly process of buying used first. That is beyond arrogant and as a result I would never be a customer of that brand out of principle alone. GM should consider the long term blowback for a principled declaration like what I am reading out there with the Z06 flippers. The fact that some dealers are even saying that if customers give them $100,000 they can move up the list of names when there has not even been a distributed list of allocations sent out yet, that is ridiculous! In fact a dealer saying that their mark up will be $100,000 over MSRP is insane! If that is the case, GM mispriced the Z06 and it should be $100,000 more from the factory. I'm sorry it is a beautiful car as I have seen it up close and personal just a couple of weeks ago at an unveiling of it, but there is no way it is worth $250,000. The Corvette is a super car in its own right. The performance even of the base C8 in stock trim beats most of the exotics in everyday driving abilities. The Z06 is on another level completely. And future versions will be even more so. But if GM bans customers from buying their products because they "flipped" a halo car for a private sale profit, that is a bad precedent on a number of levels.

It would not even occur to me to flip the BW I am eagerly awaiting for. But if someone else who is less passionate didn't care about it, to them it is just a car and if they can make a profit by selling it, they will and not lose sleep about it. Why would any manufacturer care? Ferrari doesn't and they have their crazy process to buy one. Once you have bought a new Ferrari, you can flip as many of them as you want. Just keep coming back to buy more. Ford proved that they can build an awesome race car to take on Ferrari. in the 60's GM can prove to the world they can build awesome sports cars that are highly sought after too. The fact that they can build world class sports cars with American engineering, then price it well below the "exotic" brand's products, with similar or better performance makes them all the more attractive. The Blackwing is a celebration of excess, without looking like a kid's car. It is a giant middle finger to the EV world, and I am going to love every tire burning second of it!

Ok rant over. Back to making a living.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Greedy flippers? Investment opportunity two different things.I know of one dealer in the states who wants another $100 000 just to move up your order on a 23’ Z06 it’s on utube. That’s greedy. I just traded my 21’ gmc hd2500 at4 on a 22’ & it was a key swap. Market conditions. Vehicles are cheaper in Canada as manufacturers have to eat some of the currency exchange. My brother just purchased the same truck in the US & paid 10k US more but I do get a bigger discount due to membership of certain groups &!being involved in 5 deals this year for the dealer ship.

definitely paying full list for my BW the part that pisses me off is the delivery date was June 28 the car arrived end of July but finance rate jumped from 5.49 to 6.99 & they wouldn’t do shit even though I traded my 14 Camaro 1LE like a year ago plus $1000 down on the BW they just blame it on the bank.

so Americans looking for a car should look at Canada as their dollar goes farther, vehicles are cheaper if asking /selling price isn’t astronomical

I was just hoping to order a 23’ exactly how I want it & get a little return on my investment
 

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The fun fact: regarding Keynesian Economics, the relationship of supply vs demand comes pricing power. If you have a product or a service that people are lined up out the door to buy and there is a limit to supply, you can command even unreasonable pricing power in that situation. If supply and demand are generally in equilibrium, then your asking price is likely what you will get. When supply is more than demand, then the customer can control the price of said items or services and it is up to the seller to decide how much relative profit they want to make or lose. I am not defending dealers from marking up their products if they have customers lined up to buy them. But with a free market society comes shrapnel of unfortunately realities or inconvenient truths. If the buyer of a GM product wants to sell it privately a minute after owning it, that is their prerogative. If they can sell it for a higher price than if they bought it at the dealer, then have at it. There are risks in those transactions for the buyer and the seller inherent in private transactions. If GM wants to sanction that customer from buying more of their products, that is stupid from an economics perspective. It is my understanding that if you want to buy a new Ferrari, you first have to own a used one before you can have the opportunity of buying a new one. If I am wrong about that please forgive me as that is my working understanding. I reserve the right to be wrong in that assessment if I am. Regardless, assuming that is right, what Ferrari is saying with that standard is you are not worthy to buy a new Ferrari unless you go through the costly process of buying used first. That is beyond arrogant and as a result I would never be a customer of that brand out of principle alone. GM should consider the long term blowback for a principled declaration like what I am reading out there with the Z06 flippers. The fact that some dealers are even saying that if customers give them $100,000 they can move up the list of names when there has not even been a distributed list of allocations sent out yet, that is ridiculous! In fact a dealer saying that their mark up will be $100,000 over MSRP is insane! If that is the case, GM mispriced the Z06 and it should be $100,000 more from the factory. I'm sorry it is a beautiful car as I have seen it up close and personal just a couple of weeks ago at an unveiling of it, but there is no way it is worth $250,000. The Corvette is a super car in its own right. The performance even of the base C8 in stock trim beats most of the exotics in everyday driving abilities. The Z06 is on another level completely. And future versions will be even more so. But if GM bans customers from buying their products because they "flipped" a halo car for a private sale profit, that is a bad precedent on a number of levels.

It would not even occur to me to flip the BW I am eagerly awaiting for. But if someone else who is less passionate didn't care about it, to them it is just a car and if they can make a profit by selling it, they will and not lose sleep about it. Why would any manufacturer care? Ferrari doesn't and they have their crazy process to buy one. Once you have bought a new Ferrari, you can flip as many of them as you want. Just keep coming back to buy more. Ford proved that they can build an awesome race car to take on Ferrari. in the 60's GM can prove to the world they can build awesome sports cars that are highly sought after too. The fact that they can build world class sports cars with American engineering, then price it well below the "exotic" brand's products, with similar or better performance makes them all the more attractive. The Blackwing is a celebration of excess, without looking like a kid's car. It is a giant middle finger to the EV world, and I am going to love every tire burning second of it!

Ok rant over. Back to making a living.
Here's what I would add to what you've written: It's not GM who is making the excess profit when dealers jack up beyond the MSRP or when a buyer flips the car and yet it's GM that is making a vehicle that is so compelling that the demand is through the roof along with the price. Add to that perspective those silly state-by-state laws that protect dealerships from the manufacturer selling directly to the consumer absolutely perverts any tenets of an unfettered supply-and-demand based economic system that allows GM to benefit more. Given those things, I would say that GM is 100% within their rights to lay down some rules or - barring that - to jack up the invoice price they charge to dealers right up to market value and thereby squeeze all the excess profits from the dealerships. If they did that, there would be no space for profit-motivated flipping by buyers as the MSRP would be really close to the market value.

Greedy flippers? Investment opportunity two different things.I know of one dealer in the states who wants another $100 000 just to move up your order on a 23’ Z06 it’s on utube. That’s greedy. I just traded my 21’ gmc hd2500 at4 on a 22’ & it was a key swap. Market conditions. Vehicles are cheaper in Canada as manufacturers have to eat some of the currency exchange. My brother just purchased the same truck in the US & paid 10k US more but I do get a bigger discount due to membership of certain groups &!being involved in 5 deals this year for the dealer ship.

definitely paying full list for my BW the part that pisses me off is the delivery date was June 28 the car arrived end of July but finance rate jumped from 5.49 to 6.99 & they wouldn’t do shit even though I traded my 14 Camaro 1LE like a year ago plus $1000 down on the BW they just blame it on the bank.

so Americans looking for a car should look at Canada as their dollar goes farther, vehicles are cheaper if asking /selling price isn’t astronomical

I was just hoping to order a 23’ exactly how I want it & get a little return on my investment
Canadian dealers of most car brands are prohibited from selling to customers who do not have a Canadian residence. This isn't by law but rather car makers buying peace among the dealerships in the US operating near the border.

The reason why many new cars are currently cheaper in Canada is because the Canadian market conditions are different here and their sales in Canada would tank if they just did a straight conversion at current exchange rates.

Good luck with your cars.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Not a lot different to what has already been said EXCEPT Canadian vehicles do very much get purchased by American dealers……..not so much now as demand is so high for used vehicles they now rarely leave Ontario but a few years ago all the good used GM HD trucks were quickly shipped off to Texas etc bc it was cheaper for the American customer & everyone got a piece of the pie on the transaction as long as they were in Canada 🇨🇦 for a certain amount of time & had some many miles on them.
But agreed yes market conditions have changed but limited edition vehicles in high demand are always an exception to the rule. I’ve even heard on a US forum if you do flip GM will blacklist you from ever buying a GM vehicle ever again…….that one’s a little hard to comprehend.
And I guess the question is what are the vBW’s actually worth? I’ve heard Cadillac actually loses money on building each car. Ok guess it will take a while to establish the actual price point.
 

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I inquired about a 5BW though a dealer last summer & got one as buddy let it go. They will deliver to my house this Thursday. I’ve been promised a 23’ allocation so will flip this one in the fall. Selling for upwards of $180 000 up here in Canada only a few cars hoping I can make a few bucks & pay cash for my 23’ with a few bucks left over. They are becoming a bit of a unicorn. See what the market dictates. Best of luck everyone else with getting their orders.
Doubt you will get anywhere close to that price, there is a blue and red ct5 blackwing that have been on sale in Toronto for almost what a year now they both started at 180k and are now being sold at 140k and still no buyers. But good luck.
 

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Doubt you will get anywhere close to that price, there is a blue and red ct5 blackwing that have been on sale in Toronto for almost what a year now they both started at 180k and are now being sold at 140k and still no buyers. But good luck.

On a side note I was offered almost 25k more then I purchased for my real blackwing but guess what if I sold it nothing to replace it with. Cadillac no longer sells full sized sedans :( and cars seems to be alot more expensive post covid.
I spoke with my dealer here in Ottawa about those two. I figure that they must have overpaid for those two 5VBWs at the market peak and are just hoping that a desperate buyer comes along. That red manual one (with no CF options) is advertised at about $50k over MSRP. Who in their right mind would pay that? The electric blue one is a lot closer to MSRP and pretty close to the US MSRP considering the one CF pkg it has.
 

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Yea the red one was originally listed at 179k, keeps getting lower and lower.

Hope to see your ct5v bw in Toronto, I drive a black ct6v blackwing, still haven't seen the ct5v bw in person wouldnt mind seeing them side by side:)

What dealer are you getting yours from? I got mine at Markville Caddilac. Took almost a year to deliver and I preordered it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I just find the whole thing interesting. I’ve owned GM trucks & cars my whole life & when I saw the vBW I knew I had to reach out & see what was available.

it’s sitting at Roy Foss Thornhill in the showroom they are supposed to deliver it tomorrow (Thursday) so you could check it out there if you like. As I said before I didn’t get to build it so it’s not exactly what I wanted but pretty close. Black Raven, stock wheels, 10 auto, mid upgrade seats, sunroof, that’s about it. Paying full msrp the only thing that pissed me off is the financing jumped from 5.49 to 6.9 like July 1 & slated delivery date was June 28 but they basically said too bad it’s the bank not us. Which kinda p in seed me off car will cost me another $2100 now they could have at least split the difference but I’m sure there’s 10 guys in line behind me. Anyhow will be my daily driver till the snow flys looking forward to the experience.
 

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Actually 3 on Auto Trader & yes well overpriced
That third one in Edmonton just popped up in the last few weeks and it's puzzling as it's been sold by a Cadillac dealership. If what I was told is true, GM won't be happy with them. Wheaton (the dealership in Edmonton) has a reputation of overpricing its used cars but asking $180k for a manual? That's just out and out stupid.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
So judging by those three cars the only three that I know of in Canada for sale right now, they average out to about $144 000 taking 10% off asking price. Of course they are equipped differently this is a generalization……..but priced about 30k over rmsp on average but not sold yet……..Or about $112 000 US dollars plus plus
 
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