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2003 DHS
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47 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've done a lot of searching and seen various bits of electro-oddities, and now I'm sharing mine - need y'all's help to get me back on the road :(

My '03 DHS has 225k miles (on the ODO anyway). Today, apart from the usual littany of christmas tree lights on the dash, I noticed some new ones "Service Charging System", "Battery Low". Uh-Oh! So I turned off the AC & radio and prayed I would make it to my work... I didn't. I had to pull off into any empty lot in the ghetto. In a decent Caddy with doors that can't lock. :suspense: Tried to turn it over a couple times and just heard clicking.

I tried jumping the car twice - it started twice, then promptly died. So I had it towed home. The battery is correct Duralast replacement w vent tubes, and looks brand new. Ditto the main terminal connecting cables. No corrosion. Just for kicks I pulled the neg. cable, shined up the chassis ground end, scraped the paint at the bolt mounting point, and cleaned up the bolt.

Interior lights came on bright right away when I hooked it up to a jumper car. So I pulled the codes:

Current CODES 6/8/15
ABS C1277 Requested Torque Signal Circuit Malfunction
DDM B3832 Window Position Sensor Circuit (??)
IPC U1000 Class 2 Communication Malfunction
IPM B0429 Temperature Control #3 Rear Circuit Range/Performance
PCM P0410 Secondary Air Injection (AIR) System
PCM P0560 . Sys Voltage Error
PCM P0562 . Sys Voltage Lo
PCM P0741 TCC System Stuck Off
PCM P1571 TCS PWM Circ No Frequency
PCM P1860 TCC PWM Solenoid Circuit Electrical
PDM B3832 Window Position Sensor Circuit
No VTD Codes

Then I turned the key over and started right up. I circled the 'hood a few times checking things out. There was an annoying RR Door Ajar bells going off. After I closed the door (incidentally the one I had open to jump the car), it still kept going off - I'm guessing this was a 'phantom pain' the car felt after the battery circuit was hooked up again?) Another odd thing- not sure if its coincidental but my LF headlight is now out, but parking lights OK. After .7 miles, "Service Charging System", "Battery Low" came back on so I bee-lined it for the house and made it time before everything shut down.

Anyway, I tend to think the alternator is bad...any consensus?

Other background weirdness on the car (had it for two months now)
When I got it, only the passenger front window worked, the rest had chairlegs, 2x4's etc. holding up the windows. I bought the new regulators. When testing them one at a time, all worked. But when I buttoned all the doors up - The RR window goes up/down haltingly, and the LR doesnt work at all - I only hear a click. Also, I have to roll down the front window to open the door - I did not have to do this when there was no door panel on. Key wont open the door either, so I dare not lock it.

Codes I pulled back then:
Current CODES 4/27/15

ABS C1233 RF Wheel Speed Circuit Open or Shorted
IPC U1000 Class 2 Communication Malfunction
IPM B0429 Temperature Control #3 Rear Circuit Range/Performance
PCM P0410 Secondary Air Injection (AIR) System
PCM P0741 TCC System Stuck Off
PCM P1860 TCC PWM Solenoid Circuit Electrical
RFA C0750 Tire Pressure Monitor (TPM) System Sensor Not Transmitting

Thanks for your guidance!!
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
Joined
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19,270 Posts
I've done a lot of searching and seen various bits of electro-oddities, and now I'm sharing mine - need y'all's help to get me back on the road :(

My '03 DHS has 225k miles (on the ODO anyway). Today, apart from the usual littany of christmas tree lights on the dash, I noticed some new ones "Service Charging System", "Battery Low". Uh-Oh! So I turned off the AC & radio and prayed I would make it to my work... I didn't. I had to pull off into any empty lot in the ghetto. In a decent Caddy with doors that can't lock. :suspense: Tried to turn it over a couple times and just heard clicking.

I tried jumping the car twice - it started twice, then promptly died. So I had it towed home. The battery is correct Duralast replacement w vent tubes, and looks brand new. Ditto the main terminal connecting cables. No corrosion. Just for kicks I pulled the neg. cable, shined up the chassis ground end, scraped the paint at the bolt mounting point, and cleaned up the bolt.

Interior lights came on bright right away when I hooked it up to a jumper car. So I pulled the codes:

Current CODES 6/8/15
ABS C1277 Requested Torque Signal Circuit Malfunction
DDM B3832 Window Position Sensor Circuit (??)
IPC U1000 Class 2 Communication Malfunction
IPM B0429 Temperature Control #3 Rear Circuit Range/Performance
PCM P0410 Secondary Air Injection (AIR) System
PCM P0560 . Sys Voltage Error
PCM P0562 . Sys Voltage Lo
PCM P0741 TCC System Stuck Off
PCM P1571 TCS PWM Circ No Frequency
PCM P1860 TCC PWM Solenoid Circuit Electrical
PDM B3832 Window Position Sensor Circuit
No VTD Codes

Then I turned the key over and started right up. I circled the 'hood a few times checking things out. There was an annoying RR Door Ajar bells going off. After I closed the door (incidentally the one I had open to jump the car), it still kept going off - I'm guessing this was a 'phantom pain' the car felt after the battery circuit was hooked up again?) Another odd thing- not sure if its coincidental but my LF headlight is now out, but parking lights OK. After .7 miles, "Service Charging System", "Battery Low" came back on so I bee-lined it for the house and made it time before everything shut down.

Anyway, I tend to think the alternator is bad...any consensus?

Other background weirdness on the car (had it for two months now)
When I got it, only the passenger front window worked, the rest had chairlegs, 2x4's etc. holding up the windows. I bought the new regulators. When testing them one at a time, all worked. But when I buttoned all the doors up - The RR window goes up/down haltingly, and the LR doesnt work at all - I only hear a click. Also, I have to roll down the front window to open the door - I did not have to do this when there was no door panel on. Key wont open the door either, so I dare not lock it.

Codes I pulled back then:
Current CODES 4/27/15

ABS C1233 RF Wheel Speed Circuit Open or Shorted
IPC U1000 Class 2 Communication Malfunction
IPM B0429 Temperature Control #3 Rear Circuit Range/Performance
PCM P0410 Secondary Air Injection (AIR) System
PCM P0741 TCC System Stuck Off
PCM P1860 TCC PWM Solenoid Circuit Electrical
RFA C0750 Tire Pressure Monitor (TPM) System Sensor Not Transmitting

Thanks for your guidance!!
====================
The battery is correct Duralast replacement
I HATE anything/everything from autozone -
duralast = dontlast -

have the battery charged and load tested -

have the alternator output tested -

-------------------------

When I got it, only the passenger front window worked,
the rest had chairlegs, 2x4's etc. holding up the windows.
I bought the new regulators.

ah yes -
the FAMOUS Deville POP-N-DROP -

too bad you didn't check here first -
you could have PERMANENTLY fixed the regulators for less then $1 each -

----------------------

I have to roll down the front window to open the door -
I did not have to do this when there was no door panel on.
probably a pinched or chaffed wire -

Key wont open the door either, so I dare not lock it.
sounds like a lock rod fell off

---------------

for the codes -
our cars do some mighty strange things with low voltage -
clear the codes - and cross your fingers -

----------------
B0429 - very common -
the #2 mix door actuator also serves the back seat temperature controller -
around $65 for the part -
and easy to replace by removing the glove box -

------------------

P0741 and P1860 together - you got lucky - sort-of -

this means the torque converter is not going into "lock-up" -
BUT it's the solenoid causing the problem -
not a failed seal in the trans -

the solenoid can be replaced without dropping the trans -
with "micro-surgery" - small hands - and LOTS of swearing -
 

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2003 DHS
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47 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the info. Won't get a chance to test the bat & alt til this wkd. As for doors & windows--The driver's lock rods, etc are all there, I switched DDM's and still same problem. I switched entire door skins even. I think the key may not work on top of some other issue...
 

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2003 DHS
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47 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
UPDATE: More Electrical Weirdness - Test the alt in the car??

UPDATE: Took the battery into Advance Auto, had it slow-charged overnight, next day they said it tested fine (not under load, mind you).

I also got to looking at the battery cables (which look new, btw) and found that the positive cable end 'flat ring' contact surface showed corrosion and
potassium carbonate 'calcification'. The threaded metal piece that screws into the battery showed K2CO3 crust build up too. So I took a wirebrush wheel to the ring shined the surface to bare copper, and cleaned up the threaded piece and reassembled. I checked the negative cable end for good measure - it looked good. I put the battery back in and the car started right up. I didn't let it run long though.

SO...how does this theory sound: The corrosion on the positive terminal slowly built up over time until it got to the point car was just able to start and run that one last time but there was just enough corrosion for the alternator not to be able to replenish the battery???

In any case, I'm going to drive the car to Adv. Auto to have them check the alternator (about 1/2 mile). My question now is... looking out how tight that alternator sits under there, will they be able to test it while its in the car? I have pulled the lower front rock shield pan and the top front core support cover... when I move the top coolant hose out of the way, I can see the red wire going to the back of the alt, but will the guy at the store be able to reach it??? I don't want to drive it there, only to have it die without being able to first test the alternator to rule it in/out for sure.
 

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2001 Seville STS, 1990 Seville (RIP), 1972 Sedan Deville
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26,323 Posts
A battery test is called a load test for a reason. If they didn't test it under load, what exactly did they do?

They don't have to be anywhere near the alternator to test its output. Actually, you don't even have to go to the store. Scroll through the DIC readouts. What is the voltage with the engine idling.
 

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2003 DHS
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47 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
OK, just did 1st test.

Started the car up, reading was at 11.9

at idle (800RPM) went up to 14.8
would stay at 14.8 for abt 10 secs, then drop down as low as 12.6 then climb back up to 14.8 over the next 5 sec, then hold at 14.8 for 10 secs. Went through this cycle for at least a minute.

Then the idle settled at about 750 RPM (or it looked like it did anyway), and voltage held steady at 12.3

I then gassed it to 1400RPM - no change in voltage.
Let it back to idle at 750RPM - voltage held steady at 12.1.

Then I shut the car off.

(Oh and my bad, I thought load testing meant 'with the battery in the car'. They tested it by hooking up their diagnostic doo-hickey - I guess it simulates putting on a load. 'Duh' on my part :drool:)
 

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2003 DHS
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Discussion Starter #7
UPDATE 2. Took it to auto parts store.

Diagnostic test indicated battery is good - 12.35V, 820 of 840CCA

Starter Test - skipped

Charging system test - NO VOLTAGE.

So looks like the Alternator is shot. ARRGGHHH. I have read posts on the PITA factor in changing this out! and it is insanely hot/humid.

I read that the alt can be pulled by dropping the passenger side fan (by passing need to pull radiator) but can someone tell me HOW, I pull the fan? ie. where are the bolts, what needs to be moved out of the way, etc???:suspense:
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
Joined
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19,270 Posts
Re: UPDATE: More Electrical Weirdness - Test the alt in the car??

UPDATE: Took the battery into Advance Auto, had it slow-charged overnight, next day they said it tested fine (not under load, mind you).

I also got to looking at the battery cables (which look new, btw) and found that the positive cable end 'flat ring' contact surface showed corrosion and
potassium carbonate 'calcification'. The threaded metal piece that screws into the battery showed K2CO3 crust build up too. So I took a wirebrush wheel to the ring shined the surface to bare copper, and cleaned up the threaded piece and reassembled. I checked the negative cable end for good measure - it looked good. I put the battery back in and the car started right up. I didn't let it run long though.

SO...how does this theory sound: The corrosion on the positive terminal slowly built up over time until it got to the point car was just able to start and run that one last time but there was just enough corrosion for the alternator not to be able to replenish the battery???

In any case, I'm going to drive the car to Adv. Auto to have them check the alternator (about 1/2 mile). My question now is... looking out how tight that alternator sits under there, will they be able to test it while its in the car? I have pulled the lower front rock shield pan and the top front core support cover... when I move the top coolant hose out of the way, I can see the red wire going to the back of the alt, but will the guy at the store be able to reach it??? I don't want to drive it there, only to have it die without being able to first test the alternator to rule it in/out for sure.
=============================
Took the battery into Advance Auto,
had it slow-charged overnight,
Advanced auto must have loved charging an autozone battery - :rolleyes:

next day they said it tested fine
(not under load, mind you).
it NEEDS to be LOAD-TESTED -
volts - without AMPS = nothing -

-----------------------

showed corrosion and potassium carbonate 'calcification'.
the white powdery substance is actually lead sulfate -
sulfuric acid and hydrogen crystals -

potassium carbonate is strongly alkaline - 11.5 ph -
on the opposite end of the PH scale compared to sulfuric acid - 1.0 ph

use baking soda to safely clean battery terminals -

----------------------------

your altyernator is shot -

DO NOT be tempted by a house-brand "lifetime" warranty unit -

go with a new ACDelco - or reman Remy -
unless you ENJOY changing alternators -

I found this - REMY 12249 - $117.57 - with free shipping -

http://www.partsgeek.com/gbproducts/DC/2801-05366597.html?utm_content=DN&utm_term=2001-2004+Cadillac+DeVille+Alternator+Remy+12249+01-04+Cadillac+Alternator+03&fp=pp&gbm=a&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ff&utm_campaign=PartsGeek+Google+Base&gclid=CK2q2o_-j8YCFYgAaQodqx0A-w
 

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2003 DHS
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47 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I scored a Delco Remy from a JY Deville today. Gonna have it tested. If no good, I can return it no problem.
 

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2003 DHS
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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks for the link on the REMY 12249 - may end up going that route. The alternator I pulled in the JYcame out of a 2000-2005 Deville. I noticed it looks like it has a cooling line of some sort running through it... Is that the wrong one?
 

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2001 Seville STS, 1990 Seville (RIP), 1972 Sedan Deville
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'98/'99 and some '00s. Not compatible as it's not air cooled and your car can't provide coolant flow through it. Just get a remanufactured one.
 

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2003 DHS
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47 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Thanks to all who posted here. I was able to get the alternator out --I could confirm it was clearly shot by just turning it and hearing crunching sounds. I returned the JY one I scored and will be ordering an AC/Delco/Remy unit. I also want to report that I was able to get the unit in my car out without removing the radiator, btw. I did pull the top radiator hose off though. I hope to post up pix in another thread related to pulling alternators from these Devilles. Speaking of pulling - whomever designed the placement of the alternator on the Northstar should be pulled limb from limb!!! Stupidest alternator location I've ever come across.
 

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2002.5 F55 CORSA STS, 2014 Explorer XLT FWD
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.............. most alternators are on the front of the engine (regardless of whether or not the engine is a sidewinder, the FRONT is the accessory drive end) - so our engine orientation has problems with some accessory accessibility.
 

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2003 DHS
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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
I finally got a replacement alternator back in, and the front of the car buttoned up. My voltage readout is now running between 14.8 and 14.1, so I'm back in action!

As to the alternator placement - it is still ridiculous. I realize that alternators are typically at the front, but more usually to the front/side TOP in a traditional longitudinal v8 - which is what I'm used to - in/out no fuss. All I'm saying here is that it should/could(?) have been engineered to have the alternator at least at the top of the engine. Requiring removal of the radiator is just poor planning IMO. But I'm guessing the bean counters were consulted, and they said "So what! Cadillac owners can afford to pay for having a radiator removed to get to the alternator!" Regardless, after the delays from all this nasty weather, I'm just happy to have Krewella back on the road! :)
 
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