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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Been thinking about supporting upgrades to handle higher boost. First, ARP head studs to prevent head lift. Head studs have been talked to death in other forums for several decades--given their low cost, head studs are something I automatically invest in, irrespective of boost level.

Second, the question of whether to recycle or replace head gaskets. None of the vendors (and nobody on this forum) seems to be aware that Cometic sells their MLX head gaskets (introductory article) for this engine. Was that a rare miss or is there a reason?

Did you guys replace your OEM gaskets with OEM, or did you get MLX gaskets? Regardless of what you chose, did you install your gaskets with copper spray or without? Finally, even though the ARP instructions don't mention it, did you wait a day for final torque?

Testing the myth of waiting a day to retorque head bolts and studs:

Introduction to head gaskets:
 

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You raised some good questions and points. I'm not the one for answers but I sure am interested in what responses you may get.
 

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For non-TTY head bolts and studs, after going through the entire torque sequence I'll always wait a half day or so and then go back in sequence and one at a time back them off about 1/4 turn, and then retorque to the final value (note-- go in sequence one at a time doing the loosen/tighten, don't loosen all of them at once!) The reason to slightly loosen them before retorquing them is because the breakaway torque needed to get them moving can often exceed the desired final torque spec, so if you try to simply tighten them again you'll get incorrect torque/tension. If you put paint witness marks on the cylinder head and bolt head (or nut if you used studs) before doing this you'll see they always take a little bit more on the loosening/retorquing cycle. If you're installing them into a block with a wet deck where the fasteners go into the cooling jacket you have to use a non-hardening sealer on the threads to do this, because if you use a hardening sealer you'll disturb the sealer when you loosen and retighten the head bolts and will probably have coolant leaks. No worries about this on a dry deck block where the head fasteners do not get into the cooling jackets. Also, if the fasteners are new and non-TTY it's not a bad idea to go through 3 torque/loosen/torque cycles on the first go around as it will burnish the threads, then let them sit half a day to a day, then come back and do the final loosen/retorque cycle.

Note: this used to be a lot more important with composite head gaskets, where the fasteners would always move an appreciable additional amount in the delayed loosen/retorque cycle since the composite head gaskets would compress a decent amount before taking a set. With modern MLS gaskets being far less compressible since they're spring steel, once the embossed layers are flattened they "hit a wall" and I've found things move a lot less and you can often get away with the initial 3 torque/loosen/torque cycles to burnish in the fasteners and not have to come back a half day to a day later to do one more loosen/torque cycle.

For TTY head bolts, one and done. You are stretching the bolt into the plastic deformation range on the first torque + angle cycle resulting in permanent elongation of the fastener and once you've done that any further cycling to the specified torque + angle only stretches the bolts further which reduces their cross sectional area and therefore reduces their ultimate strength which is what you do NOT want to do-- that's why TTY bolts are one time use.

As far as sealer on MLS gaskets, if the surface finish and flatness on the deck and heads is correct and the gasket is new with the proper viton sealing material applied where needed by the gasket manufacturer, I never use additional sealer (the exception being a little dab of RTV at the corners of the head gasket where the block/head/intake manifold meet at the corner of the valley on older engines.) I also try not to reuse MLS gaskets because while the steel portion of the gasket is typically OK, some of the viton sealer used around the cooling holes usually comes off the gasket when you try and reuse them. The only time I'll use copper coat or similar is when reusing an MLS gasket (or if the deck and cylinder head surface finish is marginal for an MLS gasket, but at that point it's better to resurface them to get the surface finish in spec), and reusing MLS gaskets is something usually only reserved for drag-only engines that see frequent teardowns and rebuilds. For an engine that's not going to see frequent rebuilds, just buy new gaskets... because it really sucks to try to save $100 and reuse a set of MLS gaskets only to find a coolant weep from a damaged viton sealing bead after you get it back together and running and then you have to pull the engine and tear the heads off again.

As far as aftermarket gaskets... modern OEM MLS gaskets are usually very well made and were designed with the proper amount of layers and shape to have proper clamp load to seal very sell given the deck and head configuration. Cometic makes good gaskets, but on modern stuff they typically aren't needed unless you're doing an extreme build or the OEM gasket has been shown to have problems in that application at your targeted power level. For example, when building an LS engine for boost rather than spending tons of money for specialty aftermarket head gaskets, a typical recommendation is to use the OEM LS9 head gaskets which were made for boost and are quite a bit cheaper than the aftermarket gaskets. The LS9 head gaskets were made for a boosted application and have additional steel layers compared the standard LS1/LS2/LS3 head gaskets. Use of aftermarket specialty head gaskets really depends on the application and intended power / cylinder pressure goals.

Disclaimer: I'm not a full time engine builder, but do usually spec out and assemble 1 or 2 engines a year for people, and work with a couple of machine shops and builders who have built engines for teams that have won numerous national championships in various racing divisions over the years, and have picked up lots of little tips from them along the way... There's always more to learn though.
 

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Second, the question of whether to recycle or replace head gaskets. None of the vendors (and nobody on this forum) seems to be aware that Cometic sells their MLX head gaskets (introductory article) for this engine. Was that a rare miss or is there a reason?
We have never seen or heard of Cometic head gaskets for the LF4 engine. In fact, they don't even include the LF4 engine in their applications list. If you have inside information on this, or this is something we missed, please share.

On that note, we have now built 17 cars with 702 to 836 peak whp. All had ARP head studs, and not one has failed an OEM head gasket.


 

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We have never seen or heard of Cometic head gaskets for the LF4 engine. In fact, they don't even include the LF4 engine in their applications list. If you have inside information on this, or this is something we missed, please share.
That's because they're hard to find. They're listed under the GM V6 high feature engine category. And no, I contacted Fel-Pro armed with the GM P/N and Cometic P/N and they don't have an equivalent part to compete with the MLX.


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As far as aftermarket gaskets... modern OEM MLS gaskets are usually very well made and were designed with the proper amount of layers and shape to have proper clamp load to seal very sell given the deck and head configuration. Cometic makes good gaskets, but on modern stuff they typically aren't needed unless you're doing an extreme build or the OEM gasket has been shown to have problems in that application at your targeted power level. For example, when building an LS engine for boost rather than spending tons of money for specialty aftermarket head gaskets, a typical recommendation is to use the OEM LS9 head gaskets which were made for boost and are quite a bit cheaper than the aftermarket gaskets. The LS9 head gaskets were made for a boosted application and have additional steel layers compared the standard LS1/LS2/LS3 head gaskets. Use of aftermarket specialty head gaskets really depends on the application and intended power / cylinder pressure goals.
Aftermarket MLS gaskets are a good option for playing with compresion and squish clearance because you can often get them is various thicknesses. Especially useful for flat deck head style combustion chambers.
 

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Aftermarket MLS gaskets are a good option for playing with compresion and squish clearance because you can often get them is various thicknesses. Especially useful for flat deck head style combustion chambers.
True, I didn't mention that, and playing with gasket thickness is an option... but only in small amounts though. Going too thick on a head gasket to drop compression ratio (because you might have chosen the wrong piston and cylinder head chamber size combination, or you surfaced the head too much and reduced the combustion chamber volume and increased the compression ratio more than you wanted) leads to poor quench which can cause very undesirable effects when it comes to detonation resistance as poor quench usually results in a much less homogenous mixture in the combustion chamber that is actually more prone to detonation.

Thanks for sharing that information. Looks like the Cometics are four layer, compared to OEM with five layers.
Interesting, as the OEM approach has often been the reverse-- often OEMs prefer additional thinner layers preferred to fewer thicker layers when it comes to engines with extra cylinder pressure. Example being an OEM LS3 head gasket has 5 layers, while the OEM LS9 head gaskets have 7 layers. (For more modern engines, I believe GM is using 7 layer MLS headgaskets on both the NA LT1 and the boosted LT4 and LT5, but they're different gaskets with different part numbers.) The reasoning for more thinner layers as opposed to fewer thicker layers on the boosted engines according to someone who works for GM powertrain engineering that I spoke with is that an MLS gasket with additional thinner layers has more "spring" to it and can better handle the higher cylinder pressures and detonation events and slight lifting and movement of the cylinder head during those transient events while still keeping the combustion gases sealed.

I'm pretty surprised to hear the stock head gaskets on the LF4 are only 5 layer and not 6 or 7 layer, but if the LF4 gaskets are only 0.044 thick that may be why they only have 5 layers. The 7 layer LS9 gasket is 0.051, and the 7 layer LT4 gasket is 0.055 thick.
 

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True, I didn't mention that, and playing with gasket thickness is an option... but only in small amounts though. Going too thick on a head gasket to drop compression ratio (because you might have chosen the wrong piston and cylinder head chamber size combination, or you surfaced the head too much and reduced the combustion chamber volume and increased the compression ratio more than you wanted) leads to poor quench which can cause very undesirable effects when it comes to detonation resistance as poor quench usually results in a much less homogenous mixture in the combustion chamber that is actually more prone to detonation.
I use the Cometic on my bikes. I typically use a 0.030" gasket get the quench tight. It actually increases octane tolerance while also raising compression.
 

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Cometic certainly knows what they're doing, they have been one of the leaders in aftermarket MLS gaskets for many years now and depending on application are often my first choice as they often make what nobody else does for a particular application. I've used their stuff for years on SBC/BBC/LSX/SBF/BBF engine builds and never had a failure of their head gaskets-- but it's odd to see them going to fewer thicker layers on the LF4 when the OEMs seem to be moving towards MLS gaskets with more thinner layers for applications with forced induction and higher cylinder pressures. Be interesting to see what they say.
 

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That's because they're hard to find. They're listed under the GM V6 high feature engine category. And no, I contacted Fel-Pro armed with the GM P/N and Cometic P/N and they don't have an equivalent part to compete with the MLX.
We spoke with Cometic about this today. Their fitment sample was pulled in 2014, before the LF4 engine was in production. For this reason, they do not recommend the part numbers listed above for the LF4 engine.

I will be shipping a pair of OEM LF4 head gaskets to them tomorrow, and we'll get a properly designed pair of aftermarket head gaskets in the works soon.
 
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