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After my first run in with those afaces at Mark Christopher, http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49862, I figured I would give them another shot since they are right down the street from me. This time to just replace the battery and take a look at the differential bushing for the clunk.

When I pulled up to the service area I purposely left the vehicle in KOEO position with the lights on, because five minutes of this is all it will take to drain the battery to the point where the engine won't turn over. This has been the case for about a month now and is by no means an isolated incident. Right before I left Mark Christopher I tried to start it and sure enough it wouldn't crank, so I figured that this would be proof enough that the battery needs to be replaced. Keep in mind that on Sunday I had to call Onstar to give me a jump because the damn thing wouldn't start. Scott, the service advisor, said that they probably wouldn't be able to get to the clunk issue by the end of the day, but that was understandable since I hadn't made an appointment.

Around 5PM yesterday I get a call from Scott saying that the battery has passed all the tests and they think something strange is going on and would like to keep it until tomorrow. I said okay, since I don't really need the car until Wednesday.

I just got a call from Scott saying that the battery is still testing fine and that they can't duplicate the problem and for me to come pick up the car. I said why should I pick up the car when there is clearly a problem and I am just going to be left stranded again. I then told him, let's do some deductive reasoning here to figure out what the problem might be. I said clearly there is not a drain, nor are any of the cables a problem since I can start the car just fine if it sits for a week. But if I leave it with the key on for five minutes with the lights on or even just the radio on, the vehicle will not start. Scott then replied that it shouldn't be able to have the key left on with the lights on for that long (5 minutes) because there are too many electronics in the car. I then asked him if he was aware of what the reserve capacity on the battery was. He said he didn't know, but I said we can safely assume that it is about 90 minutes. I told him that means that if the alternator completely takes a crap while I'm driving at night with the lights on, that the battery alone will be able to power the vehicle for ninety minutes before it drops below the threshold voltage. He denied this as if I was making it up. He kept insisting that his hands were tied and that I would have to pay for the battery replacement since the battery tested fine. I said that the dealership should have to pay for the battery to keep the customer happy, especially considering the horrible experience I had with them before, when he told me that I would be treated like family if I gave them another chance; so he's a liar also. He said that he would test it one more time and try to replicate the problem that happened a day earlier.

He called back a short while later and said that the battery tested fine and started even with the key on with the lights on and radio on for five minutes. I then suggested that they test a failed battery and use the ticket from that to replace mine under warranty. He said that's dishonest and it's stealing. I said no, it's customer service. He said no that's thievery and I want to sleep well tonight. He then said I am going to refer you to the service manager and I said please do. He then said he's not at his desk right now. I asked him what his name was and he said Dave something. I said Dave, that was the guy that approved of the "fix" last time I brought my car to Mark Christopher and he's a total joke. I said well that says a lot about the operation over there; is there anyone that is even half way competent?

After I got off the phone with Scott, I immediately called Kyle Hulings, a GM customer service representative, whose phone number I got from this forum from a person having a similar issue. I'm actually on hold with him right now as I'm typing this, as he is calling Mark Christopher to get the other side of the story. So far he has been absolutely great to deal with.

I just got off the phone with Kyle and he said that he was put on hold and transfered all over Mark Christopher until he finally got Scott's voicemail. Kyle said that this will be his primary focus for the next 24 hours and he will get back to me as soon as he can.
 

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Hopefully all works out for you. I hope Kyle can light a fire under the service manager's ass; seems that most of them need it, especially mine...
 

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Barak said:
After my first run in with those afaces at Mark Christopher, http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49862, I figured I would give them another shot since they are right down the street from me. This time to just replace the battery and take a look at the differential bushing for the clunk.

When I pulled up to the service area I purposely left the vehicle in KOEO position with the lights on, because five minutes of this is all it will take to drain the battery to the point where the engine won't turn over. This has been the case for about a month now and is by no means an isolated incident. Right before I left Mark Christopher I tried to start it and sure enough it wouldn't crank, so I figured that this would be proof enough that the battery needs to be replaced. Keep in mind that on Sunday I had to call Onstar to give me a jump because the damn thing wouldn't start. Scott, the service advisor, said that they probably wouldn't be able to get to the clunk issue by the end of the day, but that was understandable since I hadn't made an appointment.

Around 5PM yesterday I get a call from Scott saying that the battery has passed all the tests and they think something strange is going on and would like to keep it until tomorrow. I said okay, since I don't really need the car until Wednesday.

I just got a call from Scott saying that the battery is still testing fine and that they can't duplicate the problem and for me to come pick up the car. I said why should I pick up the car when there is clearly a problem and I am just going to be left stranded again. I then told him, let's do some deductive reasoning here to figure out what the problem might be. I said clearly there is not a drain, nor are any of the cables a problem since I can start the car just fine if it sits for a week. But if I leave it with the key on for five minutes with the lights on or even just the radio on, the vehicle will not start. Scott then replied that it shouldn't be able to have the key left on with the lights on for that long (5 minutes) because there are too many electronics in the car. I then asked him if he was aware of what the reserve capacity on the battery was. He said he didn't know, but I said we can safely assume that it is about 90 minutes. I told him that means that if the alternator completely takes a crap while I'm driving at night with the lights on, that the battery alone will be able to power the vehicle for ninety minutes before it drops below the threshold voltage. He denied this as if I was making it up. He kept insisting that his hands were tied and that I would have to pay for the battery replacement since the battery tested fine. I said that the dealership should have to pay for the battery to keep the customer happy, especially considering the horrible experience I had with them before, when he told me that I would be treated like family if I gave them another chance; so he's a liar also. He said that he would test it one more time and try to replicate the problem that happened a day earlier.

He called back a short while later and said that the battery tested fine and started even with the key on with the lights on and radio on for five minutes. I then suggested that they test a failed battery and use the ticket from that to replace mine under warranty. He said that's dishonest and it's stealing. I said no, it's customer service. He said no that's thievery and I want to sleep well tonight. He then said I am going to refer you to the service manager and I said please do. He then said he's not at his desk right now. I asked him what his name was and he said Dave something. I said Dave, that was the guy that approved of the "fix" last time I brought my car to Mark Christopher and he's a total joke. I said well that says a lot about the operation over there; is there anyone that is even half way competent?

After I got off the phone with Scott, I immediately called Kyle Hulings, a GM customer service representative, whose phone number I got from this forum from a person having a similar issue. I'm actually on hold with him right now as I'm typing this, as he is calling Mark Christopher to get the other side of the story. So far he has been absolutely great to deal with.

I just got off the phone with Kyle and he said that he was put on hold and transfered all over Mark Christopher until he finally got Scott's voicemail. Kyle said that this will be his primary focus for the next 24 hours and he will get back to me as soon as he can.
Do you know what amperage that 90 minutes of reserve capacity is at?
Also how many amps your vehicle draws KOEO?
 

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LMAO--I swear--I thought you were referring to my battery problem several weeks ago as I was reading this..

I am not at all kidding when I say the (near) EXACT same thing happened to me, save for I was at a dealership in the San Diego area.

I was told the same things (we can't do anything, it's testing fine, come back when you are having a problem, etc.).

I was also told there was an unreasonable drain on the battery that would take hours upon hours to diagnose (boy, didn't he feel stupid when I said, "Umm, my cell phone is charging inside the cabin right now...").

Some of the conversation that really annoyed me was being told (same as you) that we shouldn't leave the key in the on position for even a few moments...as if the battery would die THAT fast...I'm like, "Umm, doesn't that mean that there IS a problem??"

And what on earth is the logic of sending us ON OUR WAY WITH A DEFECTIVE BATTERY? What--you think I want to call and get a jump again? Yeah, being stranded is really cool... :thepan:

Apparently, they need this "dead battery" code in order to replace the battery under warranty if it's testing fine. Lest, their hands are tied. While I can somewhat understand the logic of not mindlessly changing batteries at a customers whim, there must be SOME logic. I mean, why on earth would someone with a car that is ~4 months old take time out of his day to say the battery is having issues? What--I'm trying to get a free 4 months out of them for a new battery? :cookoo:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Do you know what amperage that 90 minutes of reserve capacity is at?
Also how many amps your vehicle draws KOEO?
Really irrelevant but in any case as far as I know the reserve capacity rating is done at a standard draw.

According to the dealership the amp draw with the KOEO with the lights on and radio on is 16-17 amps, very low by any standard, probably due to the HID headlights.

I appreciate the support LV V and Luna.
 

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same issue here!
Luckily cavender caddy in SA replaced my battery with no complaints and all has been fine since. Your service center SUCKS!!!!
-moldy
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks for the tip Urb.

What did you end up doing about the dead battery problem, Luna?
 

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Barak said:
Thanks for the tip Urb.

What did you end up doing about the dead battery problem, Luna?
After I told the guy how lame it was to send me on my way when it was probably going to happen to me again, he gave me his own business card, with his personal cell number on it, and told me to call him if it happened while I was in San Diego.

It did. I called him. He came out, got the code off my dead battery, said that was what he needed, installed a new battery on the spot..voila.

He also informed me that ON ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE, they have much more leeway than they do at the dealership. In other words, I probably could have had a new one installed if I called him for roadside assistance than when I had it at the dealer.

In any case, I find the process really stupid. For instance, if Cadillac roadside assistance helped you, why couldn't the dealer rely on that as proof that the battery was defective?? :annoyed:
 

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John,
Trying to help here....

They sound like they suck...

Here is the procedure they need to follow:
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/data/tsb/02-06-03-010a.pdf

They do need a code (with some exceptions)
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/data/tsb/battery-claim.pdf

I say, drive the car home, wait till teh battery dies, call cadillac roadside assistance, make them jump you/ tow you... keep doing this... It will get very expensive for cadillac and they will replace you battery.. It also says that they dont NEED a test if you use roadside assist... so that should help..

http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/data/pi/PIC3589.pdf

Here are some other things..

http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/data/04-06-03-015a.pdf
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/data/02-06-03-006b.pdf

This is a known issue and I cant find the TSB about the bad batch of batteries.. I will keep looking...

Good luck Barak and let me know if I can help.. I am meeting with the regional rep on friday morning at penseke for my own issues (Ishminder and I went in together today hoping power= numbers...)

Reed
 

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Barak said:
Really irrelevant but in any case as far as I know the reserve capacity rating is done at a standard draw.

According to the dealership the amp draw with the KOEO with the lights on and radio on is 16-17 amps, very low by any standard, probably due to the HID headlights.

I appreciate the support LV V and Luna.

How is that irrelevant? That is why I asked what the draw was on a CTS-V. If the 90 minute reserve capacity is rated at a standard draw of say, 10 amps, then it would be save to say that IF the CTS-V had a higher KOEO draw than most cars and was 20 amps then the reserve capacity would be 45 minutes. Granted that is nowhere near the 5 minutes that he mentioned, but I'm just using these numbers as examples and that is why I asked the question.
 

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Barak,
I can leave my car in KOEO for more than 5 mintues.. There must me a problem with your car.... Tell the moron at the dealer that... Surprisingly that is not good enough for GM. I bet it would be for lexus...

I am getting REALLY PISSED OFF about GM service.... I hear horror stories all day from you guys and I am having it happen to me too....

EVERYONE IS SOCAL: would everyone (luna excluded) be willing to go to a dealership in mass to have our cars service. Maybe we can get a dealership to give a crap if we dangle a bunch of business in front of them...
The following are NOT options: Mark Christopher, Coast, Peneske, Tustin

Any ideas?

I wish lindsay was close to me.

Reed
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks for all the support guys.

He also informed me that ON ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE, they have much more leeway than they do at the dealership.
On Sunday, Onstar told me that they would try to send a tech to replace the battery, but instead sent a guy from a towing company who just gave me a jump.

I say, drive the car home, wait till teh battery dies, call cadillac roadside assistance, make them jump you/ tow you... keep doing this... It will get very expensive for cadillac and they will replace you battery.. It also says that they dont NEED a test if you use roadside assist... so that should help..
I think I will try this next. Immediately when I get the car home I will leave the key on for five minutes, and then have Onstar send a tech with a battery to replace it. Thanks for the advice.

I heard back from Kyle, the GM customer service rep, who informed me that he had left several messages with Mark Christopher and has had absolutely no response. He asked me if I could leave my car at the dealership until this thing was sorted out. So my car is still there and this story and thread will undoubtedly continue. I find myself now wondering if I will ever againconsider buying another GM vehicle after this BS.
 

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ctsvett said:
EVERYONE IS SOCAL: would everyone (luna excluded) be willing to go to a dealership in mass to have our cars service. Maybe we can get a dealership to give a crap if we dangle a bunch of business in front of them...
The following are NOT options: Mark Christopher, Coast, Peneske, Tustin

Any ideas?
My understanding is that the Caddy dealership in Sherman Oaks (Casa de Cadillac is it? They may have moved to Van Nuys though--not sure) is a great one to deal with. The owner and one of the techs (??) own a CTS-V is my understanding...
 

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In response.
We have tested Barak's battery no less than seven times over two days all with the same result. Good Battery. We used two different machines, both with the same results. My Tech left the lights / radio and key on for 20 minutes and retested, again, good battery. Today at Baraks request, I personally left the key on, radio and headlights on for 6 minutes, then, load tested the battery at 170 amps, twice and again on a separate tester, all with the same results. "Good battery" after all of the punishment on the battery the engine cranked up perfectly. I inspected for suspect date codes as described in one the TSB's and I had found that this is in fact a replacement battery (confirmed in GMVISS) I checked all TSB's that may apply and none of them apply to this vehicle.
Unfortunately, at times, we in the dealerships must answer to GM and without a failure, we will not "throw" parts at a car. Neither on GM’s dime nor on our customers. I would invite anyone who reads this who expects honest, professional and personal service to try Mark Christopher for them selves.
I have little doubt that Barak has some sort of (intermittent) failure and with that, I would much rather locate and repair the root cause of that failure as opposed to throwing band aids and guesses at the car. I gave Barak the customer service number personally as it may be possible to get GM to do something beyond the dealer’s ability to replace a known GOOD part.
As for the personal attacks, no Barak, I am not a liar (as requested by you) and I will not cheat you, GM or any of my other customers... and that is how I sleep at night. For you to ask me to test a known bad battery and "sell" that to GM is Totally unacceptable and dishonest. How would you feel if that’s how I treated you when you were out of warranty?
Please remember, selling service (Warranty or otherwise) is how we get paid and support our families. Why would I want a no charge repair order?
There are weak, dishonest people out there in all walks of life. I, do my best, not to be one of them.
Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I would invite anyone who reads this who expects honest, professional and personal service to try Mark Christopher for them selves.
Read my two posts and judge for yourself, don't bother with Mark Christopher for sales or service unless you like to be treated like you're purchasing a used Aveo. I tried to buy my car from Mark Christopher and they just blew me off. That's a shocker.

I have little doubt that Barak has some sort of (intermittent) failure and with that, I would much rather locate and repair the root cause of that failure as opposed to throwing band aids and guesses at the car.
The intermittent is called the battery. And as far as locating and repairing the root cause of the failure, you told me to come pick up my car rather than finding the "real problem." Much like OJ is trying to find the "real killers."
As for the personal attacks, no Barak, I am not a liar


What did you tell me after Mark Christopher screwed up the first time Scott. Do you remember, we sat down and you said if I gave Mark Christopher a second chance that you would treat me like family. I would hate to be a part of your family, or you are just like I said, a liar.
For you to ask me to test a known bad battery and "sell" that to GM is Totally unacceptable and dishonest.

That is called dealing with corporate policy to provide the best possible customer service certainly not unacceptable.
How would you feel if that’s how I treated you when you were out of warranty?
I don't know what you mean by this, but I feel like crap and my vehicle is still under warranty.

Unfortunately, at times, we in the dealerships must answer to GM and without a failure, we will not "throw" parts at a car. Neither on GM’s dime nor on our customers.
Maybe you should check Flatrater.com, hosted by probably the best GM technician in the country and even he occasionally "throws" parts at a car.
I gave Barak the customer service number personally as it may be possible to get GM to do something beyond the dealer’s ability to replace a known GOOD part.
First off, the number you gave me would have done nothing since I would have to go through 20 minutes of automated crap until I got a real person on the phone, if ever. The number I used was a completely different number with a direct extension to Kyle. And you damn well know that the batttery is not a known good part. I know if it was your car and your tech came back to you and said the battery checks out fine that you would still have him change it and find a way to make GM pay for it.

And if you are so in the right Scott, then why didn't you or anyone else at Mark Christopher return any of Kyle's messages after over three hours?

Oh, and this is just one of the forums that I told you about where there is an overwhelming disdain for GM customer service and you especially are no exception. I know when I told you about this disdain, you disagreed and had just the opposite opinion, but now that I see that you have a whopping two posts, I was obviously wrong to question your wisdom on the matter.

Anyone have Mark LaNeve's email. I'm sure he'll be interested to hear about all this as well.

 

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Barak said:

Read my two posts and judge for yourself, don't bother with Mark Christopher for sales or service unless you like to be treated like you're purchasing a used Aveo. I tried to buy my car from Mark Christopher and they just blew me off. That's a shocker.


The intermittent is called the battery. And as far as locating and repairing the root cause of the failure, you told me to come pick up my car rather than finding the "real problem." Much like OJ is trying to find the "real killers."


What did you tell me after Mark Christopher screwed up the first time Scott. Do you remember, we sat down and you said if I gave Mark Christopher a second chance that you would treat me like family. I would hate to be a part of your family, or you are just like I said, a liar.


That is called dealing with corporate policy to provide the best possible customer service certainly not unacceptable.

I don't know what you mean by this, but I feel like crap and my vehicle is still under warranty.


Maybe you should check Flatrater.com, hosted by probably the best GM technician in the country and even he occasionally "throws" parts at a car.

First off, the number you gave me would have done nothing since I would have to go through 20 minutes of automated crap until I got a real person on the phone, if ever. The number I used was a completely different number with a direct extension to Kyle. And you damn well know that the batttery is not a known good part. I know if it was your car and your tech came back to you and said the battery checks out fine that you would still have him change it and find a way to make GM pay for it.

And if you are so in the right Scott, then why didn't you or anyone else at Mark Christopher return any of Kyle's messages after over three hours?

Oh, and this is just one of the forums that I told you about where there is an overwhelming disdain for GM customer service and you especially are no exception. I know when I told you about this disdain, you disagreed and had just the opposite opinion, but now that I see that you have a whopping two posts, I was obviously wrong to question your wisdom on the matter.

Anyone have Mark LaNeve's email. I'm sure he'll be interested to hear about all this as well.

Wow. This is why I don't work for dealerships anymore. There's no way to win in this situation. I can't count how many times I've had this same argument with a customer, feeling helpless because I was just the middle-man between GM and the customer.

On one hand, the dealer is right. The car is not failing now and without a documented failure, warranty work cannot be performed. The fact that the customer is asking the dealer to commit warranty fraud is proposterous. They would rather loose you as a customer than risk an audit and the penalties for being guilty of warranty fraud.

On the other hand, the customer knows there is a failure, he's duplicated it. He feels the dealer is cheating him and I don't know why. They don't get paid unless they perform a warranty repair. Why would they not want to find something?

I would also like to know, how is an Aveo customer entited to less satisfactory customer service than a CTS-V customer?

Anyways this story is the same every time and nobody wins. I feel sorry for both of you. I am just thankful I no longer work for dealerships. Working in 7 dealerships over the years (5 GM, 1 Ford, 1 Chrysler) has made me all too familiar with this situation and I'm thankful I work for Katech. :)
 

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John.
I refuse to get into a "pissing contest" with you on the matter, I can tell you that as of 5:30 PST, I have had no contact from anyone at GM Directly or in my voice mail. I will fully cooperate with anything that GM may offer and I am completley open to suggestions. Oh, by the way, in your own words, Batteries are VERY seldom "intermittant".
 

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Barak, interesting reply to your letter from showey. As you know, I too am from the "Inland Empire" and I wonder where to go for service. I will not go to Mark Christopher until (if) they fix your problem.
I have had problems with my dealer since day one (Kennedy) in San Bernardino. I will give them the chance next week to: 1) do a correct oil change, last time they put way too much oil in and never did fix it (they said it would burn off) and is still above the full line 5,000 miles later. 2) either fix or get me a new wheel (been waiting since June) that they scratched while fixing a flat. 3) fix the molding above the front windshield, again (looks like soft pasta). 4) Find and replace the bottom of my computer module and then replace all those little plastic hooks (remember when you and Reed found the module just hanging? It is still (I hope) tied up with your plastic tie straps. 5) Time for the new radio with button paint that won't (I hope come off). 6) In the morning, I get a "check coolent level" so maybe I will get in line for one of the radiators that are on national B.O. I have had more things go on with this car (still love it though) in eight months than I have ever had with my 1999 Lightining (which I still have).
If GM were to read these posts it could probably save itself, I have to wonder though. Face it showey: You dealers suck and IF one of you were to really get it through to your people on what customer service is really all about (go down the road to the Lexus dealer (Crown) and check them out) you would be so busy and the word would travel so fast it would make your head swim.
I stopped reading and responding to this board for a while because I really do LOVE THE CAR but hate how we are being treated by you (the dealers). It is post after post about crappy dealers and how they won't stand behind their product.
Showey, feel free to respond to my letter, keep in mind however that I spent two afternoons Looking at V's at Mark Christopher with no one (except the pretty girl that answers the phones) giving me the time of day. Sounds familiar does it not?
 

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There is a known issue with the batteries... GM isnt always right about vin breakpoints and TSBs.. >Trust me...

Dont you think the POSSIBILITY of GM denying your battery claim (its not fraud, by the way) if it fixed John's issue would be worth not having to have the conversation?.... Basically, if you changed out the battery, sent him home and it failed again, at least you would have ruled out the battery as the cause. Oh, and you would not have had an angry customer... If it fixed the problem, then everyone wins. But instead, now, you have an angry and upset customer who still has a broken car... This is NOT customer service... Customer service is trying another battery to SATISFY the customer... (I dont want any crap about this method being expensive to you- I can bet you lost a bunch of business by this post going public- so now you end up losing more business).

Since he called roadside assist you have the ability to warranty return the battery to GM per the above listed warranty admin memo... You will not be paying anything. You charge the labor and parts to GM. Gm will pay for customer satisfaction repairs.... Look it up in your system... Eiethr way, you bill GM for the diagnostic work and the battery...

Its really just sad that it has come to this... I LOVE GM which is why I spend so much effort working on websites and forums trying to help people. All they get is nonesense from the dealers. I cant tell you how many e-mails I get from people about how I helped them solve their problem when the dealer could not. THIS IS NOT MY JOB... I have a day-job to keep me busy, i do this on my free time. On the other hand, helping YOUR customers is your job...

This is just sad to me (I am having service issues now too). I doubt we would be having this conversation if this was a $50K lexus we were talking about.

Reed

P.S. Why cant we all go to lindsay cadillac...
 
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