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2012 BMW 550i xDrive MSport, 2015 Chevy SS, 2017 Camaro, 2017 GMC Acadia Denali
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Discussion Starter #1
Gears are turning in my head, which never leads to anything cheap. A lot of people have asked why GM didn't make an LS7 version of the ATS. Thinking about that got me thinking about why I would not be able to swap a complete LT1 take out of a 2016 Camaro into my ATS? They both use DI fuel systems, I'm thinking the engine crossmember should swap straight across from the Camaro to the ATS. I know I would have to run a 2016 Camaro PCM/ECU/TCU. I believe the transmission behind the LT1 is the same unit used in the ATS-V. Can I swap to a better/stronger factory rear? Would the Camaro rear bolt right in? If we can get this figured out, I'm very much game in being the guinea pig! Wonder if an LT4 would fit?
 

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2014 ATS 2.0T MT
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I'm sure there would be a lot of trial and error involved, but it looks like there is plenty of room in there. If someone ever made a swap kit for it I would consider it in the future once the car is paid off. This would would be an amazing swap and if someone made a kit with the way prices on used ATS's are going I would think people would do it. If you start this project please keep us updated with lots of pics! A big cammed ATS man that would be nice! :yup:
 

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ATS 2.0 M6 FE3
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If you search you'll find lots of "it'll fit" "no it won't" back and forth.

The fact is an LT1 will physically fit in the engine bay by the numbers... BUT... just like the rear seats in the ATS sedan, the engine bay wasn't packaged for it and like a 6'2" 260lb adult in the back seat, just because it fits doesn't mean it should ever go in there.

GM's DI engines make TONS of waste heat (massive radiators, vented hoods, the lot) and the cooling module in the ATS would be too close to the engine. If you've ever seen under the hood of a 3000GT VR4, or a 300ZX TT or a late 90's Z28/Trans Am... good luck working on it, and airflow through the engine bay will become an issue.

The reason is the ATS's transmission tunnel is smaller than the CTS and the Camaro, so any transmission that can handle the V8's power has to be moved forward (and FWIW a 430hp V8 vs a 430hp TTV6 - the V6 can torque limit the powertrain easier so the transmission doesn't need to be as stout) and thusly the engine moved forward. During design, this forward movement of the center of mass messed up handling (oh and btw means also moving the steering rack, which messes up geometry) and the engineering team felt that while the overall mass of the TTV6 to V8 was slightly higher and slightly taller, the location of the center of mass was better for handling - after all the ATS's mission was to be handling first speed second.

I'm thinking the engine crossmember should swap straight across from the Camaro to the ATS.
The Camaro is somewhere between the ATS and CTS in size - I'd sooner go after the crossmember from the CTS-V and see if that fit, but with the amount of custom work, a tubular k-member would be the better bet (example below for 4th gen Camaros) and would save space.

http://s10.photobucket.com/user/WarShrike/media/Teardown/100_0828.jpg.html

I believe the transmission behind the LT1 is the same unit used in the ATS-V.
Correct, they both use the 8L90 and TR6060
Can I swap to a better/stronger factory rear?
This is a good question, though the rear mounting points in the ATS-V should line up the best... it just means getting an ATS-V back end... The Camaro probably wouldn't bolt up.

The problem is you're talking putting $20k in parts along (much less labor) to do the swap - might as well get an ATS-V which would drive and handle better from the start AND have cooler aesthetics and a warranty - all for the V8 sound over the TTV6. More power to you - the problem is it just doesn't make much sense.

And if you want a true raw V8, the LS7 is the less reliable but WAY more badass engine. :yup:
But also thrice the price. :suspense:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
If you search you'll find lots of "it'll fit" "no it won't" back and forth.

The fact is an LT1 will physically fit in the engine bay by the numbers... BUT... just like the rear seats in the ATS sedan, the engine bay wasn't packaged for it and like a 6'2" 260lb adult in the back seat, just because it fits doesn't mean it should ever go in there.

GM's DI engines make TONS of waste heat (massive radiators, vented hoods, the lot) and the cooling module in the ATS would be too close to the engine. If you've ever seen under the hood of a 3000GT VR4, or a 300ZX TT or a late 90's Z28/Trans Am... good luck working on it, and airflow through the engine bay will become an issue.

The reason is the ATS's transmission tunnel is smaller than the CTS and the Camaro, so any transmission that can handle the V8's power has to be moved forward (and FWIW a 430hp V8 vs a 430hp TTV6 - the V6 can torque limit the powertrain easier so the transmission doesn't need to be as stout) and thusly the engine moved forward. During design, this forward movement of the center of mass messed up handling (oh and btw means also moving the steering rack, which messes up geometry) and the engineering team felt that while the overall mass of the TTV6 to V8 was slightly higher and slightly taller, the location of the center of mass was better for handling - after all the ATS's mission was to be handling first speed second.


The Camaro is somewhere between the ATS and CTS in size - I'd sooner go after the crossmember from the CTS-V and see if that fit, but with the amount of custom work, a tubular k-member would be the better bet (example below for 4th gen Camaros) and would save space.

http://s10.photobucket.com/user/WarShrike/media/Teardown/100_0828.jpg.html


Correct, they both use the 8L90 and TR6060

This is a good question, though the rear mounting points in the ATS-V should line up the best... it just means getting an ATS-V back end... The Camaro probably wouldn't bolt up.

The problem is you're talking putting $20k in parts along (much less labor) to do the swap - might as well get an ATS-V which would drive and handle better from the start AND have cooler aesthetics and a warranty - all for the V8 sound over the TTV6. More power to you - the problem is it just doesn't make much sense.

And if you want a true raw V8, the LS7 is the less reliable but WAY more badass engine. :yup:
But also thrice the price. :suspense:
I'd never run a LS7. I use that engine as an ******* barometer. If someone tells me the LS7 is the best thing ever made by God himself, I know that person is immediately an *******.

So you think it will physically fit. That's great news! Do you think the 8L90 will clear our tunnel? I would imagine the Camaro rear diff will be a bolt in affair. I highly doubt GM engineered more than 2 axles for 1 chassis platform. Some one has to have access to part numbers and diagrams to see what fits what, and that would make the ordeal much simpler. I don't think there will be a heat issue. I've never had cooling problems due to packing.

I do love me a good swap car. Last time I started with...



Ended up with....



And it was slooooooooooow.



https://youtu.be/FaM7E2N6uzE
 

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ATS 2.0 M6 FE3
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I'd never run a LS7. I use that engine as an ******* barometer. If someone tells me the LS7 is the best thing ever made by God himself, I know that person is immediately an *******.
The engine's reliability isn't relevant - any time someone does a swap to this degree the car is immediately a thoroughbred and is going to need lots of care to keep it in good order. The LS7 does sound amazing and rev till the stratosphere though - which is worth something. Getting an SBC to rev that high and hard is doable of course, but again that has its own costs.

Do you think the 8L90 will clear our tunnel?
It'll need to move forward, the casing is just too big (especially the bellhousing). So that means custom mounts/driveshaft/etc.

I highly doubt GM engineered more than 2 axles for 1 chassis platform.
With the unibody construction method, we'd be debating semantics till the cows come home - but the idea of a "chassis" and a "platform" are separate.

The "ATS" is the first car on the alpha platform, but of the three alphas in production wheelbases x widths are ATS (2776mm x 1806mm) CTS (2911mm x 1834mm) and Camaro (2810mm x 1900mm), so I would not assume that there are only two axle options - knowing the FWD and AWD variants, and that there are RWD alphas with and without posi differentials.

Some one has to have access to part numbers and diagrams to see what fits what
I don't have diagrams with part numbers, but the diagrams won't tell you what fits unless the part numbers for the differential and the mounts are the same, which is highly unlikely. That said GM has a habit of changing part numbers and having duplicate part numbers for the same physical part between brands, so it'd be a long and drawn out process. You'll need to make good friends with the service team at your local dealer.

I've never had cooling problems due to packing.

I do love me a good swap car. Last time I started with...
I too started with a 4th gen for a swap (1995 Z28 Convertible w/T56) and ended up with a 353ci LT4 with raised runners, 83# injectors, AFR heads, 4340 rotating assembly, blah blah blah and big ol turbo hanging off the front. I wish I'd never started the project and had left it stock, that way I could have driven the car instead of spending all my time wrenching on the stupid thing. :crybaby:
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I too started with a 4th gen for a swap (1995 Z28 Convertible w/T56) and ended up with a 353ci LT4 with raised runners, 83# injectors, AFR heads, 4340 rotating assembly, blah blah blah and big ol turbo hanging off the front. I wish I'd never started the project and had left it stock, that way I could have driven the car instead of spending all my time wrenching on the stupid thing. :crybaby:
Yeah, but you went 8cyl to 8cyl. I went 6cyl to 8 cyl. I know it's much easier in the 4th gen F-body! But there has to be a way to make this work in the ATS. I'm still not understanding why you don't think the 8L90 wont fit? It fits the ATS-V, and that is the same body/chassis/platform as any other ATS that rolls off the assembly line.
 

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With work, everything can be done. You just have to want it and not care about getting your money back on resale. I loved when people started swapping the LS1 in Miatas.

Given the need to swap engine, tranny, ECM, and rear it isn't worth the money for the average person. Would be cool though. I'd rather have the V8 than the turbo V6.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yes sir! I don't think they money will be that great. I think I can pull it off for $10k all in.
 

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Yeah, but you went 8cyl to 8cyl. I went 6cyl to 8 cyl. I know it's much easier in the 4th gen F-body! But there has to be a way to make this work in the ATS. I'm still not understanding why you don't think the 8L90 wont fit? It fits the ATS-V, and that is the same body/chassis/platform as any other ATS that rolls off the assembly line.
If the bellhousing length is identical between the LF4 and the LT1, then the LT1 would be the same spot (front to rear in the engine bay) as the LTG - but the accessories on the LT1 are farther forward than they are on the LTG, making the assembled length longer. You can't move the engine back toward the firewall. That's issue #1, as the LTG doesn't actually leave *that* much space between the cooling module and the front of the engine. Just like a 4th gen fbody, have fun working on the front of the engine.

Now, from what I remember talking to the engineers, putting the LT1 in means moving the steering rack forward to accomodate the LT1's larger oil pan and bottom end. You *really* don't want to do that as it means moving the mounts for the suspension arms and the sway bar and the steering geometry. So you're left with raising the engine up farther from the ground, but you can't do that because the bellhousing will contact the tunnel (and it'd raise the CG significantly).

The problem is also the front to rear CG (LT1 V8 vs LF4 V6) of the engine is now half a cylinder bore + cylinder wall farther forward compared to the LF4. You can't push it back those several inches, so the car is going to sacrifice its turn in and grip as the front tries to plow wide and understeer. Not good. Sure, messing with and re-doing the suspension would still end up with a car that handles better than a stock 4th gen, but it could have done so much more as an ATS-V...

That's why the 8L90 + LT1 "doesn't fit". It means messing up the suspension and steering geometry from what GM set the ATS's target to.

As Ragtop says, with work everything can be done.

For a rwd V8 Caddy, it'd be easier to convert a 3rd gen CTS-V to a TR6060 or TR6070... or just buy a 2nd gen CTS-V.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
For a rwd V8 Caddy, it'd be easier to convert a 3rd gen CTS-V to a TR6060 or TR6070... or just buy a 2nd gen CTS-V.
No thanks. Manual transmissions are utterly useless for drag racing and traffic. Would you believe I traded a V2 Coupe in on my ATS? I like the interior better in the ATS. The interior in the V2 looked like something out of the 90's.
 

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I'm hope'n that Edelbrock makes a kit for the V6 ATS with one of their E-Force positive displacement superchargers..

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/superchargers/

They've recently bought out kits for the 3.6 liter V6 Jeep, and the 2.0 liter Suburu.. To go along with their popular V8 kits..

I had a positive displacement blower on a 5.0 Mustang with a Kenne-Bell twin screw supercharger.. Driving that car, you could not tell that it only had a 5.0 V8.. The lowend torque was massive, instant and linear.. No lag at all, not even a little bit.. It dyno'd 486 ft lbs of rwtq at 2600 rpms.. So it was over 500 ft lbs at the flywheel easily.. Check out this vid.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0WvwsMbJeQ

With a supercharger on the stock V6, I could keep my AWD...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I'm hope'n that Edelbrock makes a kit for the V6 ATS with one of their E-Force positive displacement superchargers..

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/superchargers/

They've recently bought out kits for the 3.6 liter V6 Jeep, and the 2.0 liter Suburu.. To go along with their popular V8 kits..

I had a positive displacement blower on a 5.0 Mustang with a Kenne-Bell twin screw supercharger.. Driving that car, you could not tell that it only had a 5.0 V8.. The lowend torque was massive, instant and linear.. No lag at all, not even a little bit.. It dyno'd 486 ft lbs of rwtq at 2600 rpms.. So it was over 500 ft lbs at the flywheel easily.. Check out this vid.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0WvwsMbJeQ

With a supercharger on the stock V6, I could keep my AWD...
I thought there were already kits out there for the 3.6? May not be Edelbrock, but that shouldn't matter too much.
 

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^^^ One of vendors posted a kit in process and dyno numbers using a centri blower. It didn't come to market. Not sure if they thought the reliability was bad or if demand wasn't going to the be there. For realistic options, I like the idea of a lightly pressurized V6. The V6 runs now on 87 so moving to 91/93 helps with detonation control. The challenge is the rest of the drivetrain and cooling isn't built for high HP. Adding 75 to 100 HP at the wheels would probably be reasonably reliable, but a centri kit and tuning would be expensive for that gain
 

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Gears are turning in my head, which never leads to anything cheap. A lot of people have asked why GM didn't make an LS7 version of the ATS. Thinking about that got me thinking about why I would not be able to swap a complete LT1 take out of a 2016 Camaro into my ATS? They both use DI fuel systems, I'm thinking the engine crossmember should swap straight across from the Camaro to the ATS. I know I would have to run a 2016 Camaro PCM/ECU/TCU. I believe the transmission behind the LT1 is the same unit used in the ATS-V. Can I swap to a better/stronger factory rear? Would the Camaro rear bolt right in? If we can get this figured out, I'm very much game in being the guinea pig! Wonder if an LT4 would fit?
I'm thinking of doing the same thing, except might start with the LS1/T56 from my '00 Z28 just to get all issues sorted out.. then would consider upgrading to LS3. I suspect many of the '16 camaro, CTS-V, or even ATS-V parts can be used (such as engine/trans mounts, wheel hubs, spring/shock (from 1SS).

In the ATS-V, there's a ton of space in front of the 3.6, so I don't think it would be an issue to run the LT1 and just use the '16 camaro's airbox setup and cooling package. Reference this picture: http://blogs.youwheel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2016_Cadillac_ATS-V_LAShow_6.jpg

2013 ATS manuals with reasonably low mileage can be found in the ~$17k range.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I'm thinking of doing the same thing, except might start with the LS1/T56 from my '00 Z28 just to get all issues sorted out.. then would consider upgrading to LS3. I suspect many of the '16 camaro, CTS-V, or even ATS-V parts can be used (such as engine/trans mounts, wheel hubs, spring/shock (from 1SS).

In the ATS-V, there's a ton of space in front of the 3.6, so I don't think it would be an issue to run the LT1 and just use the '16 camaro's airbox setup and cooling package. Reference this picture: http://blogs.youwheel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2016_Cadillac_ATS-V_LAShow_6.jpg

2013 ATS manuals with reasonably low mileage can be found in the ~$17k range.
I wouldn't want to try to get an LS computer to try to play well with the newer stuff, which is why I figured LT1 would be the best option. All we need to find out is if the Camaro K-member and rack and be directly swapped. That would provide a mounting solution.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Nope. This isn't going to get moved on for a while. I'd be interested in doing it when I can pick up a 130k mile V6 car for $4000, otherwise the benefits don't outweigh the costs currently.
 

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Sounds scary. An alternative would be to add super charge to the 3.6. KPE is currently doing a test run on this motor. I was going to let them use my ATS but could not come up with the 6k to get it done. This would potentially have added another 100 Hp's to the 3.6 with out the added weight. That would have been sweet. Just something to consider.
 

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Nope. This isn't going to get moved on for a while. I'd be interested in doing it when I can pick up a 130k mile V6 car for $4000, otherwise the benefits don't outweigh the costs currently.
Yeah, if you could find a fresh one at the junk yard or auction with a blown engine or trans for 4k or less that would be the one to tinker with.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Sounds scary. An alternative would be to add super charge to the 3.6. KPE is currently doing a test run on this motor. I was going to let them use my ATS but could not come up with the 6k to get it done. This would potentially have added another 100 Hp's to the 3.6 with out the added weight. That would have been sweet. Just something to consider.
Add 100hp without what added weight? You mean adding weight with a V8? I'd bet you a dollar that a fully dressed 3.6 with a full supercharger kit weighs more than a fully dressed LT1. Anytime I've added a supercharger to a car, it's always added nearly 100lbs. Figure the blower itself is in the 30-40lb range, then the bracket is usually 10-15lbs, piping, another 10lbs, fmic 20lbs and boom you're at 100lbs added real quick.
 
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