I'm at the end of the road with my Deville... Help with codes???

Having recently dumped a used car we only owned for 12 months, a car that every 3 months would cost us hundreds of dollars to keep running, I feel your pain. In addition, I currently own another GM car, a Saturn L300, that I bought new in '01, a car that spent a great deal of time in the shop for various minor and major repairs/parts replacement during its 6 years with me, I know where you are coming from. The last major repair on my Saturn was for a steering rack that went bad at a mere 50k miles! Cost me almost $2k to replace and it just so happened to go bad after the long term warranty expired! :bigroll:

So, your gripes about GM cars isn't lost on me.

I recently bought a 2001 DeVille with 35k miles on it. I fell in the love with the car's looks, ride, handling, & powertrain. Just like I did with my Saturn L300 back in '01. I have no clue how this new-to-me Cadillac is going to hold up over the next 4 years or so. But just in case, I got a 24mos/24k mile GM bumper to bumper warranty on it to cover my bases for now. I will make sure to buy an extension on this before it runs out.

Anyway, I'm sorry for your negative experience. Just remember that although your long drawn out experience with your car is not isolated only to you, Cadillac today remains at the top of the class in reliability according to J.D. Power and Associates.

http://www.forbes.com/home/2007/02/02/reliable-luxury-autos-forbeslife-cx-dl_0205reliableluxuryautos_slide_7.html?thisSpeed=15000

Last year, the top 5 most dependable PRE-OWNED (3-year old) car brands according to Powers were the following (fewest problems per 100 cars):

1) Lexus
2) Mercury
3) Buick
4) Cadillac
5) Toyota

Top Ten Nameplates

Lexus 136 PP100
Mercury 151 PP100
Buick 153 PP100
Cadillac 163 PP100
Toyota 179 PP100
Honda 194 PP100
Jaguar 210 PP100
BMW 212 PP100
Infiniti 215 PP100
Lincoln 220 PP100
Source: J.D. Power and Associates 2006 Vehicle Dependability Study

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4022547

Rogue Cadillac said:

Having recently dumped a used car we only owned for 12 months, a car that every 3 months would cost us hundreds of dollars to keep running, I feel your pain. In addition, I currently own another GM car, a Saturn L300, that I bought new in '01, a car that spent a great deal of time in the shop for various minor and major repairs/parts replacement during its 6 years with me, I know where you are coming from. The last major repair on my Saturn was for a steering rack that went bad at a mere 50k miles! Cost me almost $2k to replace and it just so happened to go bad after the long term warranty expired! :bigroll:

So, your gripes about GM cars isn't lost on me.

I recently bought a 2001 DeVille with 35k miles on it. I fell in the love with the car's looks, ride, handling, & powertrain. Just like I did with my Saturn L300 back in '01. I have no clue how this new-to-me Cadillac is going to hold up over the next 4 years or so. But just in case, I got a 24mos/24k mile GM bumper to bumper warranty on it to cover my bases for now. I will make sure to buy an extension on this before it runs out.

Anyway, I'm sorry for your negative experience. Just remember that although your long drawn out experience with your car is not isolated only to you, Cadillac today remains at the top of the class in reliability according to J.D. Power and Associates.

Click to expand...

Thank you for an educated and well spoken post.

I am pretty much in agreement with everything you have to say. I do believe there are some members here who defend the cars tooth and nail on a few of the more common issues. I usually have to jump in and provide some levity on these threads because I really hate to see people, especially those with a limited budget, and kids... who tend to be the one of the biggest markets for the older used Caddies, get into a bind when their primary form of transportation goes kaput and they suddenly face repairs as much as half the price of the car itself to get it back on the road again. Thats never a good feeling.

That being said, outside of Ranger's very positive experience, Ive really heard above average failure rates for the 97-99 Deville's and PARTICULARLY the 97 model. Lots of members here seem to have 97's and alot of them seem to need frequent repairs, even outside the norm of typical Cadillac repairs.

Heres the problem... Despite their obvious flaws, there really isnt anything else out there that compares when you look at the design, power, luxury and sheer opulence you get in a cheaper used Cadillac compared to just about anything else on the road. Lincolns are OK, but the bottom line is they dont combine the attributes the Cadillacs do and offer such a complete package.

So what can you do? Well, over and above just buying a car with low miles, which Ive said time and again is NOT ANY level of security with a Northstar Cadillac, youve just GOT TO do your homework and wait for a car that has a documented service history, particularly in the areas of COOLANT maintenance, and oil maintenance. Only for the 97-99 Devilles would I also expand that to wheel bearings, and suspension components (transmissions still remain a more uncommon failure) due to the high cost of repairs and labor.

The bottom line is, Cadillacs, and particularly used ones out of warranty, should be viewed as *ENTHUSIAST* vehicles (i.e. I would never recommend a Caddy to an average layperson asking my advice on what to buy for 10k)... more like a Ferrari or a Lamborghini than the traditional American sedan. No, Im not saying they are Ferraris, Im just saying you have to have an enthusiast mindset when it comes to owning them... things are gonna come up at some point that need work, and sometimes the cost of those items will be high... Youve got to be ready to take on that challenge if you love the car.

Ian.

Ian's excellent treatise is exactly right. What people often fail to realize is the total ownership cost model with Cadillacs. There is a reason you can buy them "relatively" cheaper - because you are going to pay more for maintenance and operation in the long run with increased fuel consumption and more expensive repairs. There is also the misperception of inherited reliability - since GM produces the Buick Century which is fairly reliable therefore Cadillacs should be as well. That would be true if GM used the Ford philosophy where a Lincoln Town Car is a rebadged Mercury Grand Marquis which is a rebadged Crown Vic. However, since Cadillac has traditionally had independent engineering from the rest of GM (not sure what they're doing now) a Cadillac may bear little or no commonality with its corporate siblings. And yes, GM does make mistakes and unwise cost compromises, but pretty much every car company does (except Toyota, who will soon corporately take over the entire world according to Consumer Reports Ragazine). If I interpret the posts I've read here correctly I am just now entering the "zone of death" for my 99 N* at 91,000 miles where the head bolts will come popping through the hood any time in the next 20,000 miles and my hideously expensive CVRSS struts will begin flashing the Service Ride Control message all in the same week. Ian is absolutely right, these really are enthusiast cars that require above average care and feeding and those that don't know it before they buy usually find out shortly afterward. But that's the choice between driving a Cadillac or just a car.

YD, I too am sorry about your bad experience with your DeVille. The last two posts here are very insightful - let me add a third component. I call them the three laws of used car ownership, based on 30+ years of experience as a driver and mechanic:

1) Any car over 5 years old and 50 thousand miles is a reliability crap shoot.

2) Just because it's foreign doesn't mean it's good.

3) There is no such thing as cheap luxury.

It's that simple. I have a 4.1 powered '87 DeVille. This engine was named one of the WORST ENGINES OF ALL TIME in terms of reliablity, yet mine has been perking along for three years without missing a beat. I've had to fix all the common things like A/C, and a sensor here and there, but the car is 20 years old - stuff is going to break.

My son had a six year old Honda Accord, supposedly one of the most reliable cars ever built. He spent 3 times the purchase price on repairs in the first year he owned it.

So based on my experience, should I praise every Cadillac and curse every Honda? No. Everybody builds good ones and bad ones.

On to the myth of cheap luxury. If engineering and build standards were the primary measures of quality, the 1985-1990 Jaguar XJ-12 would be a flawless masterpiece that should run forever. Yet you can buy them all day for $3-5Gs, because they are a maintenance nightmare. $1000 tune ups and $2500 brake jobs get old really fast.

Last piece of advice: If you want turn-key zero headaches driving - go lease a Hyundai Sonata with a 100k bumper to bumper warranty. Then practice saying baa-baa-baa. It's the only way the rest of the sheep will understand you.

It's really pointless to even post here because this is going to turn into a battle of manufacturer preference. Which is dumb. All models and all years have problems. Sometimes you end up with a trouble free car and sometimes you end up with a problematic car. High mileage, low mileage 1950 or 2007 all cars are prone to problems. Many times it's swayed one way or the other by the previous owner.

My 2001 which I bought with 20k on it had to have the trans rebuilt at 40k. $3000. Do I blame the car? No. Am I pissed? Yes.

I called Cadillac and explained that I felt it was premature failure. They agreed and offered to pay half the bill. Can you get that kind of service from another auto maker? I doubt it.

The issue that's front and center is you had a trans replaced and now you have codes. Take it back the the place of repair and make them fix it. Period. Don't blame the car because the tech is an idiot.

On the other hand I have owned 4 other Cadillacs, 2 of which I still own and were all problem free for thousands of miles.

Well, after all the money and work you gave the car, whomever will own it later will certainly be in a much better position than you. They may even actually get a reliable car! :nyanya:

This is my first Caddy so I can't speak from experience with the brand. I do believe that they are a better brand than any GM except Buick based on what I have read so far with current models.

Back in 2003, we bought a 1991 Chevy Corvette with a mere 30k miles on it. The car was immaculate! We thought it would be trouble-free because of its low mileage. Not so. Although the troubles we've had with it was a trifle....A TRIFLE, compared to our '01 Saturn. Two Fuel Injectors went bad (clogged from not being driven), two engine sensors needed replacement, one door sensor too, AC condenser developed a leak, and a starter selenoid needed replacement. That's it! For a 16+ year old car that's not bad! The car now has 51k miles and it's running very strong and reliable. We just took it on a 700 mile road trip with not a single issue. Except that it was too fast! And because it was a Chevy, the cost of parts and labor was reasonable.

In contrast, a co-worker of mine bought a 1995 Acura Legend with 50k miles on it thinking it was an affordable Luxury car that would be super reliable because, well, it was an Acura/Honda product. He proceeded to sink thousands into the car in the form of a new top end rebuild, a new automatic transmission, and various electrical issues, to mention a few. He loved the car though because it was a beatiful example of the breed. Very clean one owner car.

My point is, like others have said, it doesn't matter what brand of car you got. Anytime you buy a used car without a warranty, you need to be prepared to put money into it. Mileage as well as time will wear down a car. Nothing lasts forever. And if you decide to get a premium luxury car, be prepared to spend more on parts and labor, in addition to dealing with more complicated electrical issues. These luxury cars have a lot of electrical devices in them, sensors, electric motors, air pumps, suspensions, etc., over time these will wear out and break down and will need replacement.

Many people overlook this stuff when they buy used cars because all they can think about is that they are getting a hell of a bargain! And in a way, they are! Just remember that a "bargain" only means you are NOT paying $500-$750/month on car payments, plus another $1,500+ a year in full coverage insurance, plus registration! I'll bet most people who complain about all the money they've "sunk into" their used car, don't even come close to spending as much as they would on a brand new car of equivalent class. In addition, many will argue that they could have easily put all that money in a down payment. This is true. But their used car STILL isn't making them shell out the monthly payment AND insurance premiums!

Okay. Nuff rambling from me! Bash GM all you want based on your ONE single experience. Good luck on your next car--make sure it's new with a long warranty.

Destroyer said:

Bravo Young Deville for telling it like it is. I'm known in this forum as a N* basher but in fact I am a basher of any Cadillac that isn't RWD and built after model year 1996. I'm not necessarily saying a Northstar is a bad motor but I am saying thay any car equipped with a Northstar is a POS. Is it the motor or the packing of the motor in the car?. Doesn't make a difference really, at the end of the day I was driven to buy not one but two Lincoln Mark VIII's and I'm very happy with that decision. Cadillac should be held accountable for the cars they build and so should the defenders of these POS cars. Much like STILL being a supporter for the Iraq war, not much ground to stand on.

Click to expand...

So you've never actually owned ANY Cadillac with a N* V8 yet you believe they are all POS after 1996? What the..... :hmm:

In my humble opinion, Lincoln does NOT have the same excellent reputation to the public at large as Cadillac does. Most people will put Cadillac up there alongside MB, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, and so on. Thanks to Cadillac's continuing pursuit in building great cars. Cars like the CTS, STS, XLR, and their performance flagships of their V-Series cars. They may not be at the top of the reliability index, ranked 4th in fact, they do however have a tremendous amount of respect and credibility throughout the automotive world. Unlike Lincoln, which is but a shadow of its former self. The only thing holding Lincoln together is the Town Car, and that car is quite an archaic device compared to today's DeVille. While Cadillac marches onwards to better, higher performance, higher luxury cars, Lincoln continuous down a path of sharing its platforms with Taxis and Police Cars! I'm sorry but, Cadillac has it all over Lincoln 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

Yea Lincoln really does suck. What, a 4.6liter V8 with 224hp? And they stick that POS engine into the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and the Town Car. Yea they may be reliable engine, I don't know, but who wants that POS SOHC 4.6 liter? Not me. I'd rather take my Deville and all it's problems. I had my Deville for about 4 years or so now. I have had problems, but not major major problems like Young Deville. I think my problems come from mileage and age. Its a 99 Deville that has over 130,xxx miles on it. More like 135,xxx. But I can tell you that in the past 4 years I haven't spend even over $1000 total combined on repairs yet! That's less than $250 a year on repairs so far. I love my car. Young Deville sold me his blower motor. It was a pain in the ass to put in, and I was mad, but the old blower motor was original, so of course it was gonna go bad. I got over it. I replaced struts about 3,000 miles ago. Original struts from 99. 130,xxx miles on them, of course I need new struts! Rear struts still original though and they are still good. I throw codes here and there sometimes. I clear them. Newest problem now is probably a bad wheel speed sensor wire harness. $137 each and I might need 3. Oh well. When I think of how long the car has been rolling around and how little it has really cost me, I don't get mad anymore. Oh yea and when I first got the car, I got a new fuel pump/fuel sending unit because I was getting wrong gas tank readings on the DIC. Warranty paid for that though. Oh and I had to replace the little motors that move the air mixer doors. Got parts off a junked deville for $10. They worked and still work. But Young Deville, yes GM does have some serious design flaws and they don't address them as they should. I'm just waiting for my headgasket to go. Hope it doesn't but who knows. And that's a shame. I gotta hope that my car doesn't blow a headgasket. I shouldn't have to hope for that. And that blower motor. That was a real pain in the ass to put in. I don't know why they designed it so it was that stupid and hard to replace. I'm sorry your car has all them problems and it only has 70,xxx miles on it. I'm sorry that Deville tainted your Cadillac experience. You might as well keep it though. It's alreay paid for. When you buy another car, just keep that one on the side and hold on to it. It might be worth something one day, you never know. Plus I seen your car on cardomain, it's really nice. You know no one is gonna give you a lot for your Deville because the resale sux so bad. I would keep it, just drive it sometimes, you know. But that's all I gotta say. Oh and I'm gonna be down in MD later this month, maybe we can hit the town with our Devilles on 20's. Just ride around. Hit me up if you still got my # or PM me.

99Classillac said:

Yea Lincoln really does suck. What, a 4.6liter V8 with 224hp? And they stick that POS engine into the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and the Town Car. Yea they may be reliable engine, I don't know, but who wants that POS SOHC 4.6 liter? Not me. I'd rather take my Deville and all it's problems.

Click to expand...

The 4.6 SOHC V8 in the TC comes standard with the Dual Exhaust so it puts out around 240 bhp. Standard on the Ford Crown Vics and Merc Grande Marquis is 220 with the single exhaust. If you get the CV's/GM's with the Handling Package, you get the Dual exhaust (240 bhp), limited slip differential, and sport suspension.

They're not bad. They are extremely robust and reliable and consistently tops the reliability index (not the Town Car but the Ford/Merc). J.D. Powers puts the Mercury Grande Marquis as number 2 most dependable Pre-Owned cars. If you are going to get into an accident, these are the cars to be in (5-star Safety Rating from the NHTSA). I rented both the Town Car and the Grande Marquis before I bought my DeVille. Although all of them had that good old American Luxury car ride, the DeVille had better handling. It is immediately noticeable how much more the Ford car's leaned into corners. The Fords also had a steering that gave less feel than the DeVille. The Town Car was the most ponderous but nothing even close to the 1960's-1980's full size American cars. However, the Lincolns and Mercs are simply boring compared to the Cadillacs. The Cadillac N* sounds way better, has noticeably more top end power, and is much smoother. On top of that, GM's 4-speed autobox is so much better than the Ford's autobox. GM's tranny knows exactly when to shift and has exactly the right gear ratio at any given time. The programming in their tranny software is spot on. Even Ford admits their automatics are a weak link in their large vehicles. GM's Hydramatic Division kicks their asses that's why Ford was more than eager to co-develop the new family of 6-speed autoboxes with GM. All this goes back to what I said about Cadillac vs Lincolns. Cadillac easily runs with the big dogs of Europe and Japan. They've got the chassis. They've got the motors. They've got the trannies. And most importantly, they've got the balls to build and market high performance ultra-luxury cars Lincoln still only dreams of building right now. Ford had the chassis and engine in the Lincoln LS and Mark VIII's. But they dropped them in favor of trucks and SUV's. Mayb someday they will have models comparable to Cadillac. But that's still many years away. Meanwhile, Cadillac keeps racking up those points.

Well who are we suppose to believe? The Cadillac bashers or J.D. Powers and Associates?

Cadillac is rated #4 in dependability. Lincoln all the way down to 10th place. Woohoo for Lincoln!

Top Ten Nameplates

Lexus 136 PP100
Mercury 151 PP100
Buick 153 PP100
Cadillac 163 PP100
Toyota 179 PP100
Honda 194 PP100
Jaguar 210 PP100
BMW 212 PP100
Infiniti 215 PP100
Lincoln 220 PP100
Source: J.D. Power and Associates 2006 Vehicle Dependability Study

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article....tentid=4022547