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2002 Seville SLS
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Discussion Starter #1
First post for some expert guidance.

Read through 75 posts using search terms similar to Post Title. Know you like all the details up front so here goes:

2002 Seville SLS, 4.6 L, V8, VIN Y, 115 K, maintenance schedule adhered to.

Southern Calif 2006-2015 and now Vegas 2015-Present, are the environmental conditions for outside temps.

REPAIRS:

Jan 2010 had lower air injection pump cover replaced.

Oct 2012 had coolant reserve tank replaced (cracked)

Jan 2013 had the Intake Manifold gaskets and air boot replaced.

Aug 2013 had water pump, thermostat, belt replaced.

Nov 2013 had coil rack replaced and plug #4.

Dec 2014 had serpentine belt replaced (not AC Delco)

SYMTOMS:

Around Feb 2014, noticed that when starting car from overnight parked, there was a somewhat rough idle that would smooth out in about 2 minutes. Very consistent as in every time. Also would hear a high pitch humming/whine upon starting that would last for about 2 minutes. Very consistent as in every time.

Fast forward to Feb, 2015 and rough idle became more pronounced, and would happen when car just parked for more than 1 hour, but would smooth out in 2 minutes, humming/whine the same as before.

Then April 11, 2015, after car sitting for 4 hours, tried to start, but just got a 1 second crank and no start. Key off then try again. Took 4 tries and it finally started, very rough, put it in gear and it had only a chugging response. Back to park, wait 3 minutes and it drove fine. This became the norm every time after sitting for a while. So I started recording the time intervals. If it sits for more than 45 minutes then it takes several times to start, I wait 2 minutes and the roughness dissipates. Under 45 minutes it starts first try but still idles rough for a couple of minutes. It does the higher idle to normal idle sequence when starting consistently. Noticed smell from exhaust that has gas fume likeness.

Retrieved The Codes:

PCM: P0133 Current (H02S Slow Response Bank 1 Sensor 1), P0300 Current (Engine Misfire Detected)

TTM: U1300 History (Class 2 Data Link Shorted), U1016 History (Lost Comm with XXX)

RIM: U1255 History (Class 2 Comm Malfunction)

MSM: U1000 History (Class 2 Comm Malfunction)

IRC: U1016 History (Lost Comm with XXX)

IPC: B1004 History (Keep Alive Memory KAM), U1301 History (Class 2 Data Link Shorted), U1016 History (Lost Comm with XXX), U1000 Current (Class 2 Comm Malfunction)


Took it to a mechanic here in vegas that had real good reviews and after talking to him had worked on Cadillacs before. He started with the battery and it was down to 552 amps, serpentine belt was real loose and tensioner they said was bad. Also the coolant hose to reserve tank had leak (they fixed), which might explain why I had to add coolant every now and then over the last 18 months. Had them replace battery, serpentine belt & tensioner (AC Delco). Then on next cold start the same issue. One additional thing noticed this time was about 6 minutes into driving there was a slight smell like you get from wire coating heating up that lasted about 20 seconds. Gave a visual inspection of engine and battery area but nothing caught my eye.

Before I give mechanic another stab at this, I wanted to get some expert guidance on where to diagnose.

I really do appreciate the expert advice this forum gives. 8>))

Thanks,

BS (My initials)
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
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19,288 Posts
so - an 02 SLS with 112K miles -

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looks like it needs the #1/1 oxygen sensor -

spark plugs were due at 100K -
only use ACDelco 41-987 -
there is a $1.50 per plug rebate -
http://www.acdelcotechconnect.com/pdf/spark-plug-rebates-sheet.pdf



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P0300 is a generic misfire code -
our on-board code readers will not display WHICH cylinder/cylinders is/are misfiring -
only that there IS a misfire -

take the car to any large auto parts store - they will check your codes for free -

P0301 is a misfire in cylinder #1 - P0302 is cylinder #2 - P0303 is #3 - etc -

once you discover WHICH cylinder is misfiring - diagnosis becomes much easier -
 

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2002 Seville SLS
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Thanks Basscatt for the quick reply.

Am planning on the new plugs and will use the ACDelco for sure.

About the oxygen sensor, would you check first for wiring/connection problems or just do the replacement? Reason I ask is an afterthought at times the illunination lights for the radio/info panel etc, don't light up, but that is intermittent. At night, sometimes I will see a brief flicker in the headlights.

I will get the cylinder code and thanks.

BS

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Check for a leaky FPR.


Check for vacuum leaks.
Thanks Ranger for the quick reply.

I will get the checks done. On the vacuum leaks, would that be mainly the intake manifold & FPR or more than that?

I don't understand the 1 second crank each time, but my only reference is in the old day thinking, that there would be a repeated multi-second cranking going on. No worries there, ie ignition module, etc?

Thanks,

BS
 

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Super Moderator
White Diamond '03 DHS (with DTS floor shift)
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86,793 Posts
On the FPR you are looking for gas leaking from the FPR nipple once you pull the vacuum line (at idle).

For vacuum leaks, the manifold is rarely the cause. Check the PCV lines and the plenum duct. Flex the plenum duct (at the 6:00 position) while spraying Brakleen or such (at idle).

If you have an O2 sensor code, you may as well just replace it.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
On the FPR you are looking for gas leaking from the FPR nipple once you pull the vacuum line (at idle).

For vacuum leaks, the manifold is rarely the cause. Check the PCV lines and the plenum duct. Flex the plenum duct (at the 6:00 position) while spraying Brakleen or such (at idle).

If you have an O2 sensor code, you may as well just replace it.
Thanks Ranger

I remember reading about the replacement rear shocks and front struts to order but can't find that info now. I am planning on having that done also. Any quick point to the right direction.

I will report back to the forum the results.

BS
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
Joined
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19,288 Posts
Thanks Ranger

I remember reading about the replacement rear shocks and front struts to order but can't find that info now. I am planning on having that done also. Any quick point to the right direction.

I will report back to the forum the results.

BS
--------------------------
I remember reading about the replacement rear shocks and front struts to order
but can't find that info now


I recommend Monroe -

rear shocks - MONROE MA822 - $57.40 - for the pair - with free shipping -
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C55T7W/?ie=UTF8&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER

partsgeek has them for $59.63 - with free shipping -

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struts - MONROE 71684 - $62.63 each - with free shipping -
http://www.partsgeek.com/jzhsgdr-cadillac-seville-strut-assembly.html?fp=pp

amazon has them for $67.93 each


PLUS there is a $60 rebate for 2 struts and 2 shocks - until April 30 -
http://www.rockauto.com/Images/CurrPromoFiles/2015_Monroe_Take_Control_Rebate_Pad_-_US[1]-4.pdf
 

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2002 Seville SLS
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Discussion Starter #8
On the FPR you are looking for gas leaking from the FPR nipple once you pull the vacuum line (at idle).

For vacuum leaks, the manifold is rarely the cause. Check the PCV lines and the plenum duct. Flex the plenum duct (at the 6:00 position) while spraying Brakleen or such (at idle).

If you have an O2 sensor code, you may as well just replace it.
Ranger,

Updated info. I decided to cycle ign on and let pump run (around 3 seconds it ran), then repeat and waited 5 seconds, cranked right up and the rough idle was less pronounced, the idle sequence was normal (1200 rpm down to 900 then 750, about a minute total) and it smoothed out.

So, seems related to fuel pressure. My question is any special tools needed to replace FPR? Will attempt to do myself if no special tools needed.

Thanks,

BS
 

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Super Moderator
White Diamond '03 DHS (with DTS floor shift)
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No special tool needed, but you do want to depressurize the fuel system before you pull the FPR.

That said, unless it is leaking from the vacuum nipple at idle, it's good.

Two cycles for a quick start sounds more like a weak fuel pump or an open check valve.
Might want to check your fuel pressure first.
 

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2002 Seville SLS
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Discussion Starter #10
No special tool needed, but you do want to depressurize the fuel system before you pull the FPR.

That said, unless it is leaking from the vacuum nipple at idle, it's good.

Two cycles for a quick start sounds more like a weak fuel pump or an open check valve.
Might want to check your fuel pressure first.
Ranger,

The FPR tested out okay, no gas leaking from the nipple.

Will get the fuel pressure test in a couple of days. Want to wrap my head around this, so I have a question.

Since it starts fine first time when it has been sitting less than 45 minutes, but over 45 minutes I have to cycle ignition a couple of times to prime the fuel pressure. Is this just a function of time elapsed with a possible open check valve that decreases the fuel pressure?

Thanks,

BS
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
Joined
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19,288 Posts
Ranger,

The FPR tested out okay, no gas leaking from the nipple.

Will get the fuel pressure test in a couple of days. Want to wrap my head around this, so I have a question.

Since it starts fine first time when it has been sitting less than 45 minutes, but over 45 minutes I have to cycle ignition a couple of times to prime the fuel pressure. Is this just a function of time elapsed with a possible open check valve that decreases the fuel pressure?

Thanks,

BS
====================
Is this just a function of time elapsed with a possible open check valve
that decreases the fuel pressure?

possibly -

it could also be a faulty fuel injector - leaking the pressure -

the fuel pressure test will be interesting -
 

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Discussion Starter #12
====================
Is this just a function of time elapsed with a possible open check valve
that decreases the fuel pressure?

possibly -

it could also be a faulty fuel injector - leaking the pressure -

the fuel pressure test will be interesting -
Basscatt,

So could I test the injectors by pulling the fuel rail, and then ignition on?

Thanks,

BS
 

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Super Moderator
White Diamond '03 DHS (with DTS floor shift)
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86,793 Posts
Yes. That will pressurize the system and a leaky injector should be spotted.

Keep in mind that the fuel pump will only run for about 3 seconds and then shut down if no crank signal is detected, but that should be enough to pressurize the system. If not, you can always turn the key off and then back on again for another 3 second run.
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
Joined
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19,288 Posts
Yes. That will pressurize the system and a leaky injector should be spotted.

Keep in mind that the fuel pump will only run for about 3 seconds and then shut down if no crank signal is detected, but that should be enough to pressurize the system. If not, you can always turn the key off and then back on again for another 3 second run.
==============================:yeah:
just keep in mind you are releasing a very fine mist of gasoline -
be SURE there are no ignition sources anywhere close by -
 

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Super Moderator
White Diamond '03 DHS (with DTS floor shift)
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Shouldn't be releasing anything but a drop or two (if it is leaking).
The only way he will be releasing a mist is if he cranks it.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
UPDATE:

Fuel Pressure test shows a failing Fuel Pump. Pressure was only 34 when running. Dropped to 29 immediately when engine shut off. Don't know if I also have bad injectors, so decided to replace all 8 anyway. FPR tested good.

So will install new Fuel Pump, 8 Injectors, 8 plugs with boots (due), fuel filter. All new and AC Delco.

On another note, Front and Rear motor mounts cracked. Will have them replaced also. Can you help me determine which to order?

Thanks,

BS
 

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White Diamond '03 DHS (with DTS floor shift)
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Rear motor mount failure is unusual. Usually it's the front one that fails due to the fact that is takes most of the stress.

You might want to hold off on the injectors until after you see what results a new fuel pump produces.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Rear motor mount failure is unusual. Usually it's the front one that fails due to the fact that is takes most of the stress.

You might want to hold off on the injectors until after you see what results a new fuel pump produces.
That motor mount observation was from the shop I take it to. I know the front one is bad, first I heard about the rear. Maybe I will just do the front.

Also, hooked up to a scanner and several cylinders were misfiring. We will see if the new pump and plugs clears that up also.

But before I have anything installed, I am ruling out head gasket issues with a leak down test and physical compression test at each cylinder.

On AllDATAdiy.com I see the OEM part#'s for the 4 motor mounts, When searching Rockauto it is either out of stock or not found. However Rockauto does list Motor Mounts for my 2002 seville. So this is where the confusion comes in. Engine Mount- Front OEM 25696073, Right OEM 25710672, Trans Mount- Left OEM 25695932, Rear OEM 25696037.

Thanks,

BS
 

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Super Moderator
White Diamond '03 DHS (with DTS floor shift)
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But before I have anything installed, I am ruling out head gasket issues with a leak down test and physical compression test at each cylinder.
Don't waste your time. A compression or leak down test won't tell you if you have a HG breach, especially if it is in the early stages.
Unless you have an unexplained coolant loss or are overheating, don't worry about it.
If you suspect coolant in the cylinder causing the rough start, the plugs will tell the tale once pulled. The offending cylinders plug will be very clean.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Don't waste your time. A compression or leak down test won't tell you if you have a HG breach, especially if it is in the early stages.
Unless you have an unexplained coolant loss or are overheating, don't worry about it.
If you suspect coolant in the cylinder causing the rough start, the plugs will tell the tale once pulled. The offending cylinders plug will be very clean.
Ranger,

I had coolant leaks fixed (hose & reserve tank), but had overheating recently. And I hear a sound (like bubbling fluid) when I increase RPM while in park. What test can I have done to rule out any HG issues that might be present?

On another note, Java on it's way! :yup:

BS
 
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