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Discussion Starter #1
If you haven't already seen the news, take a look.

General Motors Corp. will eliminate 30,000 jobs and close nine North American assembly, stamping and powertrain plants by 2008 as part of an effort to get production in line with demand and position the world's biggest automaker to start making money again after absorbing nearly $4 billion in losses so far this year.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/21/D8E112S80.html
 

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As far as I am concerned you can thank the likes of Consumer Report magazine for bashing American cars for years and the suckers who bought that crap and thought their little crappy imports were so great. In addition all the freakin bargain hunters who want to buy cheap foreigh crap at the expense of the American worker. We are doomed. China is getting ready to eat America's lunch and the average American dope will just sit back and let it happen.
 

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malcolm said:
As far as I am concerned you can thank the likes of Consumer Report magazine for bashing American cars for years and the suckers who bought that crap and thought their little crappy imports were so great. In addition all the freakin bargain hunters who want to buy cheap foreigh crap at the expense of the American worker. We are doomed. China is getting ready to eat America's lunch and the average American dope will just sit back and let it happen.
Thats the most lobsided argument Ive ever heard. Shoddy craftsmanship, poor management, a bland bread and butter product line and and years of corporate malfeasance are what led us here. If GM had produced the products America needed and wanted when America needed and wanted them, and had supported the products we were already buying better, the outcome would have been very different. Instead of the FEW shining stars we have from GM today, most of them in Cadillac and the truck lines, we should have products equally as impressive from the smallest vehicles to the top of the line. And if you think that Americans are the only ones who bought into korean and chinese idealogies, then you are overlooking the fact that GM themselves have already invested billions in this market and their smallest car, the Aveo, is a direct result of this.

Your basically saying that COMPETITION and affordability destroyed the company. Well without competition the business world would be a true disaster.

It really burns me up when people try to blame the misfortunes of GM and Ford on Foreign Competition. If they had been producing vehicles to compete on an equal level the whole time, the influence of the foreign brands would not have been so great. As it stands now there is alot of cleaning up to do. The Magazines havent helped, but they only spit out what they interpreted as the truth based on the information they were given... and domestic manufacturers advertised in those magazines every bit as much as the foreign ones do.
 

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Playdrv4me said:
Thats the most lobsided argument Ive ever heard. Shoddy craftsmanship, poor management, a bland bread and butter product line and and years of corporate malfeasance are what led us here. If GM had produced the products America needed and wanted when America needed and wanted them, and had supported the products we were already buying better, the outcome would have been very different. Instead of the FEW shining stars we have from GM today, most of them in Cadillac and the truck lines, we should have products equally as impressive from the smallest vehicles to the top of the line. And if you think that Americans are the only ones who bought into korean and chinese idealogies, then you are overlooking the fact that GM themselves have already invested billions in this market and their smallest car, the Aveo, is a direct result of this.

Your basically saying that COMPETITION and affordability destroyed the company. Well without competition the business world would be a true disaster.

It really burns me up when people try to blame the misfortunes of GM and Ford on Foreign Competition. If they had been producing vehicles to compete on an equal level the whole time, the influence of the foreign brands would not have been so great. As it stands now there is alot of cleaning up to do. The Magazines havent helped, but they only spit out what they interpreted as the truth based on the information they were given... and domestic manufacturers advertised in those magazines every bit as much as the foreign ones do.
Well put.

To summarize; most of the blame lies with GM's complacency and failure to compete.
 

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Just one man's opinion, no need to get uppity. I could argue that quality began to slip when the flood of imports arrived and the American buyers who were cheap with their money started buying that junk. In case you were not around in those days, the people who bought those early imports didn't have the cash to buy a real man's car. Then Consumer Reports jumped on the bandwagon and buyers who needed a magazine to tell what to buy followed. It was all down hill from there and American car companies never got a fair break since and the momentum shifted. It can come back but the automotive press is still full of import lovers and there is an entire generation of car buyers who have no idea of what it was like when companies like GM Ford and Chrysler ruled the world.
 

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So because you were always able to afford a certain type of car and the next person could not, it is THEIR fault for purchasing a less expensive alternative that still suited their transportation needs? Sounds to me like thats on the Economy of the time if anything, not on the poor soul who wasnt able to afford the more expensive vehicle.

Dont really see how its fair to blame the little guy who couldnt afford what you could.
 

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Malcolm and Play, you both have valid points. While I don't see the rationale to attribute much blame to car magazines and consumer reports I will share this example that I think ties both your thoughts together;

In 1979 we were still trying to recover from the first dramatic "gas shortage", fuel costs had risen to what we considered unreasonable levels. My friend bought a new car. It was a Dodge Challenger which, if you may recall, was built and imported by Mitsubishi for Dodge. It was a compact with a 2.0 liter (I think) 4 cyl Hemi engine, 5-speed trany, had lots of bells, whistles and goodies inside (many standard features) the likes of which we were not used to seeing in any American cars. This was fairly common for many of the Japanese imports of that era campared to American designed and built cars.

Where GM and most of the others blew it was, they didn't come on line with those features. The imports were easy on the wallet, sure, they were light and not as powerful but they performed pretty well for their size and got much better gas mileage than even the closest Amarican equivalent.

Our American companies missed the moment in my opinion. They've lost a tremendous amount of momentum by not properly reading the signs of the times. Add to that the positive press for the imports, the superior customer service that many of them had (Mazda was very good about customer service) and the fact that if properly maintained, those imports were not as disposable as we thought!

Now on top of all that, Ford was dealing with the suicidal Pintos, Chevy had Chevettes and Monzas that were pitiful in quality and performance, it was bleak.

Our American auto makers have been trying to catch up ever since but it looks like their hearts may not have been in quite the right place.....
 

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Let's not get the egg confused with the chicken here.

The flood of imports came because oil prices skyrocketed in the 70's. The American manufacturers were too slow coming up with economical vehicles, so people bought the "cheap crap" because it could get over 20 mpg.

Then ten years later people started noticing that American cars made at the same time were in the junkyards, while those little CVCC's, Celicas, and B210's were still running and going strong. The motors were putting in over 200,000 miles without needing a re-build.

I NEVER would have considered buying anything other than American, until I had to spend three days in a borrowed 1987 Acura Legend. There was not an American car on the market that could compete with that car. To get comparable luxury you had to pay $6,000 more. To get comparable economy you had to suffer poor build quality and sacrifice size and space.

So I bought it. Then I bought ANOTHER one. And another, and another.
After some hefty repair bills, my wife dumped her 1980 Buick Regal (with only 60,000 miles) for a brand new 1984 Volvo. In 1997 she got TIRED OF IT and bought a new one. The old one is still running around Memphis with over 300,000 miles on it. Her current Volvo just passed 118,000 miles.

Consumer Reports has too strong a reputation of exhaustive testing and surveying for me to take those comments seriously. I can put you in touch with one of their automotive editors. He's a regular on a baseball forum I visit, and I've never once read anything from him bashing the quality of American-made cars. He's questioned the wisdom behind the SUV boom, he's questioned the CAFE standards, and he's questioned GM's planning, but he's never been anti-American.

Based on some of the horror stories I've read in the STS section of this forum, you must have gotten a "Wednesday car" or else you're extremely lucky. If anybody's making crap these days, it's US, not the Japanese or Germans.

Blame the sloppy uneducated workforce. Blame the labor unions. Blame GM management. Blame us, the disloyal American consumers who refused to accept mediocrity.

But don't blame Consumer Reports, and don't call the imports crap, because they aren't.
 

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This is a terrible shame to hear. The last 4 vehicles I've personally owned were domestic, 3 of which were GM. They've got some catching up to do to meet the demands of their consumer market. Personally I will continue my pattern of customer loyalty.
 

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Malcolm, you sound like you don't like Jap cars...

:(

Anyway, its obvious what happened: GM has always designed their cars to last about 3-4 years - the rational is that after three years, the new upgraded model would come out, and nobody would want the old one.

And then, Honda/Toyota/(Datsun/Nissan) came over here, and they built cars that lasted, that spent more time in your garage than in the mechanic's, and that were (generally) cheaper. Not to mention they looked hella good compared to the American boxcars of the 80s (K cars, J bodies, etc.). I mean, the Mazda RX7, Toyota Supra, Datsun 240Z, etc. were affordable cars that LOOKED GOOD.

And even the regular bread and butter cars weren't too shabby either, the Mazda 626 (with its ossilating A/C vents and automatic seatbelts:thumbsup: ), the Toyota's and Hondas.


American cars broke down, they were ugly, they were inefficient, they used stoneage technology (OHV engines:thumbsup:, hell they still force them on Pontiac today...), they were just behind the times.

Of course, there were exceptions - like the Ford Taurus, and the Cadillacs of 1992, the Fox Mustang, etc. but overall, American cars sucked. I mean, why get a Cavalier when you could get a Civic?

And yes, Consumer reports seems biased, because we like American cars, but the fact of the matter, is that they aren't biased, they're just BRUTALLY HONEST. They say things that we don't want to accept, even though we know they're true.

Of course, American cars have gotten better, And Consumer Reports has reflected this; they recommened the STS, CTS, and the Escalade this year (I think...) in the '06 CR Buying Guide. But, although they've gotten better, they're still behind Jap cars. They're introducing 10 year old-technology in their new cars, and the Japs are 10 years ahead. It sucks, but...What can you do? When you have incompetent leadership, like Bill Ford or Roger Smith or Rick Wagoner, what can you do?

ANother thing, that play pointed out, is that GM doesn't know what they consumers want. I mean, we want a Pony car, and GM is putting out things like the HHR and giving brands like Pontiac a minivan. Now, why would you want to buy a sports car from a company that also makes a (mediocre BTY) minivan?
 

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Well GM is just making one stupid decision after another aren't they. What's the point of this? To raise the prices of their "on sale" cars? Why the hell don't they just raise the F-ing prices then, without sending so many people to the poor house. Their cars aren't selling not because they're making too many of them, but because people aren't liking what they see compared to what the other companies are offering. Them lowering the prices just proved to the consumers eyes that, yes, they are built cheaply. So they just move on to the next car that looks like there was some quality put into the design, and that car just happens to not be made by them. The other thing that they are doing is slapping a huge engine in practically every model. Although I personally like the power and everything, there are many people that are in the buyers market now for just simple economy cars, and GM lacks on that section of the sales department. They also need to vary their product more. Each section of the company is borrowing models from other sections of the company, and that makes the whole selection, just plain bland. My mom was looking at buying the escalade EXT, well that was untill she saw that she could get the exact same thing for thousands of dollars less if she just bought an avalanch, and she did. They are being very lazy with designing new models, and they need to realize that it's hurting them.

What's going to happen next?
 

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They’ve got some major hemorrhaging for sure, trouble is, they’re trying to stop it with a band aide. Closing plants and lowering prices will give a limited and temporary boost to cash flow but the mid and long term consequences will be fatal if they don’t take proper steps. The negative publicity and outcry from the plant closures and loss of jobs is going to hurt them for sure.

Face it. The American public in general is greedy and selfish. If you lower the price enough we will buy it. The fiscal bottom line is the bottom line for the private citizen as well as the corporate board.

The question is, is it too little too late?

And

Will they make the right choices with the limited opportunity that they have?
 

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It definitely does appear bleak. The only hope is some solid leadership as some on this board have pointed out several times to come in and rudder the ship toward the right direction, which will take time.

I said this along time ago... but we need our own Carlos Ghosn for GM. :(
 

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Something we need to remember here, GM knew these bad numbers were coming more than two quarters ago.

The fire sale they held over the summer was to help cut their losses and clean out inventory that would NEVER have sold AFTER the bad numbers came out.

We act surprised over things like today's announcements. If GM's management was surprised about having to resort to something like these layoffs, they should all be fired. They very likely had this plan in place a year ago.
 

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Elvis said:
Something we need to remember here, GM knew these bad numbers were coming more than two quarters ago.

The fire sale they held over the summer was to help cut their losses and clean out inventory that would NEVER have sold AFTER the bad numbers came out.

We act surprised over things like today's announcements. If GM's management was surprised about having to resort to something like these layoffs, they should all be fired. They very likely had this plan in place a year ago.
Good points Elvis. In fact, going along with some of the things Katshot was saying about unions, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if this was part of a strategic plan to cut the union out altogether so that they could re-organize manufacturing here with their own set of labor rates and conditions or outsource internationally as so many other corporations have done.

Of course, that does not address their lackluster designs, quality and other issues brought up here.
 

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Elvis said:
Let's not get the egg confused with the chicken here.
The flood of imports came because oil prices skyrocketed in the 70's. The American manufacturers were too slow coming up with economical vehicles, so people bought the "cheap crap" because it could get over 20 mpg.
Then ten years later people started noticing that American cars made at the same time were in the junkyards, while those little CVCC's, Celicas, and B210's were still running and going strong. The motors were putting in over 200,000 miles without needing a re-build.
I NEVER would have considered buying anything other than American, until I had to spend three days in a borrowed 1987 Acura Legend. There was not an American car on the market that could compete with that car. To get comparable luxury you had to pay $6,000 more. To get comparable economy you had to suffer poor build quality and sacrifice size and space.
So I bought it. Then I bought ANOTHER one. And another, and another.
After some hefty repair bills, my wife dumped her 1980 Buick Regal (with only 60,000 miles) for a brand new 1984 Volvo. In 1997 she got TIRED OF IT and bought a new one. The old one is still running around Memphis with over 300,000 miles on it. Her current Volvo just passed 118,000 miles.
Consumer Reports has too strong a reputation of exhaustive testing and surveying for me to take those comments seriously. I can put you in touch with one of their automotive editors. He's a regular on a baseball forum I visit, and I've never once read anything from him bashing the quality of American-made cars. He's questioned the wisdom behind the SUV boom, he's questioned the CAFE standards, and he's questioned GM's planning, but he's never been anti-American.
Based on some of the horror stories I've read in the STS section of this forum, you must have gotten a "Wednesday car" or else you're extremely lucky. If anybody's making crap these days, it's US, not the Japanese or Germans.
Blame the sloppy uneducated workforce. Blame the labor unions. Blame GM management. Blame us, the disloyal American consumers who refused to accept mediocrity.
But don't blame Consumer Reports, and don't call the imports crap, because they aren't.
ok... heres a question.....

if the imports of the 70's were so good... and they were around 10 years after they were made....

where are they now?

Back in NY cars rusted out quick... yet there was a beat '77 DeVille driving around and a couple older Mercurys. The only imports were a couple old VW buses... which were cool.

Down here in FL, I have yet to see any import from the 70's with the exception of a Datsun 280Z at a car show.... yet so far in the last month I have seen about 2 dozen 70's era cars being used as *daily drivers* There is nothing like pulling up to a stop light and an old beat up '72 Buick Skylark pulls up next to you... bent bumper/fender (probably from totalling a Honda) some rust, exhaust leak... but a nice gurgle.... I just look and it puts a smile on my face... people are still driving them. Same goes for early 70's Malibu's and there are 2 kinda beat '78 Coupe DeVilles around. A nice older Merc... and others....

if they were so bad... I don't see how after 35 years, they would simply still be driving around... hell, my '79 DeVille... I'd trust that thing to go across the country, really.... that is from the "dark ages" though I use it as a daily driver and there is not a single problem.

I don't get it.
 

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I see I have an unpopular opinion. If GM built the world's worst car, and apparently many here think they do, and priced it below the imports they would sell thousands. It's all about getting a bargain. As a comparison around here, northern NJ, you can no longer go to the neighborhood hardware store and buy a screw, nut or washer or some other little item. You have to go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a bag full of crappy screws that more than likely will either snap or the slot for the srcew driver will be half formed. Now whose fault is that? The little neighborhood hardware store owner? Should he be blamed for not keeping up? It's driven by the American consumer who can't resist a bargain and as sure as the malls and warehouse stores killed downtown shopping across America, this love of imports will continue to destroy the American economy. While the imports were establishing their brands did they have to deal with union wages, health care for employees, EPA regulations, retirement plans or Corporate income tax? Unfair advantage on an uneven playing field and now it's GM's fault? It's every American's fault. In my humble and unpopular opinion.
 

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ok... heres a question.....

if the imports of the 70's were so good... and they were around 10 years after they were made....

where are they now?

Back in NY cars rusted out quick... yet there was a beat '77 DeVille driving around and a couple older Mercurys. The only imports were a couple old VW buses... which were cool.

Down here in FL, I have yet to see any import from the 70's with the exception of a Datsun 280Z at a car show.... yet so far in the last month I have seen about 2 dozen 70's era cars being used as *daily drivers* There is nothing like pulling up to a stop light and an old beat up '72 Buick Skylark pulls up next to you... bent bumper/fender (probably from totalling a Honda) some rust, exhaust leak... but a nice gurgle.... I just look and it puts a smile on my face... people are still driving them. Same goes for early 70's Malibu's and there are 2 kinda beat '78 Coupe DeVilles around. A nice older Merc... and others....

if they were so bad... I don't see how after 35 years, they would simply still be driving around... hell, my '79 DeVille... I'd trust that thing to go across the country, really.... that is from the "dark ages" though I use it as a daily driver and there is not a single problem.

I don't get it.
Because American cars were still dominant in the 70s. Jap cars didn't really start to take over until about when Lexus came out. When Lexus came out, that's when they really started to take over. By 2000, they had completely taken over. You see, there are plenty of old imports from the 70s (I see old Celicas, Civics and Corollas all the time) its just that back then, the Japs didn't have nearly as many cars on the US roads yet and they didn't have nearly the amount of product then either.

That's the thing, GM has TONS of cars, and the Japs maybe have 3-4 cars max in their whole lineup. BUT, it works for them, because its better to have 10 GREAT cars, than to have 40 Mediocre vehicles...
 

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Anyway, its obvious what happened: GM has always designed their cars to last about 3-4 years - the rational is that after three years, the new upgraded model would come out, and nobody would want the old one.
I don't believe that one bit. That means a 2002 GM car is going to be falling apart? As I stated above, I drive my '79 DeVille around daily... hell, my '89 Oldsmobile with 131k miles that i paid $500 is a daily driver, that car has not a single issue besides underbody rust... which any daily driver NY car that is 17 years have..... 17 years.... a 17 y/o GM car that was never treated special or have really low miles, still be a daily driver. I do not have a single quality control issue with that, or any of my cars.

And then, Honda/Toyota/(Datsun/Nissan) came over here, and they built cars that lasted, that spent more time in your garage than in the mechanic's, and that were (generally) cheaper. Not to mention they looked hella good compared to the American boxcars of the 80s (K cars, J bodies, etc.). I mean, the Mazda RX7, Toyota Supra, Datsun 240Z, etc. were affordable cars that LOOKED GOOD.
built cars that lasted? how about built cars that rusted out? ANY import from the 70's and 80's is plaqued with serious rust issues... back int he 70's you'd be lucky if your new Honda lasted 3 years. You are comparing mega-cheap econo cars (K and J) to some high end imports.... how about we compare the RX-7, Supra and 240Z to say.... oh a Buick Grand National or a Ford Mustang 5.0? now all of a sudden they look like junk and their performance is even worse. The 80's was a bad decade for all cars... but to me atleast there were some pretty nice cars form the Big 3, even if performance was low.

And even the regular bread and butter cars weren't too shabby either, the Mazda 626 (with its ossilating A/C vents and automatic seatbelts ), the Toyota's and Hondas.
yeah they were nice until you crashed into a full size GM/Ford/Chrysler RWD boat... now you are dead and the Delta 88 needs a new front bumper.

American cars broke down, they were ugly, they were inefficient, they used stoneage technology (OHV engines, hell they still force them on Pontiac today...), they were just behind the times.
thats all realitive, I think the first gen RX-7 and Supra is ugly, there isn't a single import from the 70's or 80's that I like at all.... except the 70's Toyota Land Cruisers... those were just cool.

Stoneage technology? you mean OHC right? OHV? but OHC is OLDER then OHV... so how is OHV...I am lots....

I will choose an OHV engine over OHC/DOHC *ANY* day. They are far superior IMO.

Of course, there were exceptions - like the Ford Taurus, and the Cadillacs of 1992, the Fox Mustang, etc. but overall, American cars sucked. I mean, why get a Cavalier when you could get a Civic?
Because you could get a 3.1L V6 and a convertible in the Cavalier.

And yes, Consumer reports seems biased, because we like American cars, but the fact of the matter, is that they aren't biased, they're just BRUTALLY HONEST. They say things that we don't want to accept, even though we know they're true.
yeah.... no... they are BRUTALLY BIASED.

Of course, American cars have gotten better, And Consumer Reports has reflected this; they recommened the STS, CTS, and the Escalade this year (I think...) in the '06 CR Buying Guide. But, although they've gotten better, they're still behind Jap cars. They're introducing 10 year old-technology in their new cars, and the Japs are 10 years ahead. It sucks, but...What can you do? When you have incompetent leadership, like Bill Ford or Roger Smith or Rick Wagoner, what can you do?
10 year old technology Japs are 10 years ahead... what?

I *HOPE* you are not talking about VVT.

Did you know the first Cadillac in 1904 had variable intake valve timing....WOHA.... I guess its the Japs that are behind... come on now.

I'll tell ya one thing... VVT is only used on the imports 4 and 6 bangers because they offer NO low end torque at all! they NEED the VVT to try and gain that back. Why is GM picking up VVT? because of debates like this "GM is old tech" *that is that Motor Trend and Consumer Reports tell you* a DOHC VVT engine is no better then a simple pushrod. GM isn't behind anybody.

the C5 Z06 had 405hp and would get 20mpg around town and 30mpg on the highway and run 12's all day in the 1/4.... *from an old tech pushrod* Where is Japan now? You know where they are? building 2.0L turbo charged high revving DOHC 4bangers that get *LESS* fuel milage then a NA V8 Corvette... while making about half the power.... come on, who is REALLY behind the times now? Hell the C6 Z06 has 505hp and runs [email protected] in the 1/4, fuel mileage figures can't be off that much from the C5.... so it'll e interesting to see what this will get.

ANother thing, that play pointed out, is that GM doesn't know what they consumers want. I mean, we want a Pony car, and GM is putting out things like the HHR and giving brands like Pontiac a minivan. Now, why would you want to buy a sports car from a company that also makes a (mediocre BTY) minivan?
Pontiac has had a minivan for awhile now.

BTW Pontiac brought back the GTO 2 years ago.

Pontiac is coming out with the Solstice.... 2 seater, RWD convertible, manual... yeah its a 4banger, but next year it'll become supercharged putting out 260hp or so..... whats Honda have? the S2000? good luck revving that toy up to 8,000RPM to get moving.

The new Pontiac G6..... have you seen the Coupes? you can get the GT with the 3900 V6 (yup, sweet pushrod) and a 6spd manual...... I guess this is a boring car too.

Ford scored a HUGE hit with the new Mustang..... Honda dosn't have anything anywhere near it.

Chrysler is putting the Hemi into everything... their full size family sedan (300C) is running low 14's/high 13's in the 1/4 mile.

Where was GM in the 90's? what about our Cadillac Northstar? Where was Honda's limp-home mode? run out of coolant, 4 cylinders shut down, engine lives and you get home. Cadillac had 295hp in 1993.... Honda had.... 180? Oldsmobile was doing great in the 90's dosn't it SUCK GM had to kill them despite Olds in its final year with the Alero (Grand Am) Shilloette (Venture) and Bravada (Blazer) STILL sold more then Saab, Saturn and Isuzu.... *combined* The Oldsmobile Aurora? that was a kickass car, the 2nd gen Aurora is soo nice. The Oldsmobile Intrigue was a very nice advanced car and you could get 2 amazing engines... the 3.5L DOHC Shortstar or the 3800 Series II.

Thats another thing, the 3800 Series II s/c is a BEAST of an engine... IMO far better then what Honda has to offer.

you want to REALLY talk about GM beating Honda at their own game....

how about the Quad4 of the 80's? yeah they are known for headgaskets... but it was the same situation as the early N*... lack of maintenace.

in 1989 GM had 160/180/190hp versions of the Quad4. They were DOHC. the 160hp was the base version, 180hp was high output, and 190hp was the rare W41 used in the Cutlass 442. All these could be had with a 5spd manual. All of these actually had some low end torque... about 160ft-lbs across the line of all 3 versions... more then Honda.

Honda didn't get 190hp until what? 1994 in the Prelude? and even then, it was a low volume car.

So really, WHAT does GM have to keep up with?

How about the Pontiac Fiero? What about the Oldsmobile Toronado with the touch screen computer inside the car to run radio, climate control, navigation, calender, system monitor on the car etc.... come on now, this stuff was amazing that the imports simply didn't have.

I can go on and on... but really the fact is, GM's quality was never as bad as people make it out to be, and GM has NO catching up to do at all. in fact it's Honda that has to catch up how? they don't have a single V8. They build a joke they call a Ridgeline and try to market here as a real tough truck... real trucks are not unibody with low torque transversly mounted V6 and AWD.... come on now.
 
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