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Discussion Starter #1
Well, the general will be laying off 25000 workers this year in multiple plants.
I noticed that Toyota is making record profits. Whats wrong with that picture?

SSR. funky styling, no power (on the first one) leaky tempermental top.
Corvette, lots of power, fair differential, engine issues, cheeseball interior.
CTSV 98 % there.. Good but quirky interior.. Anemic diff and half shafts.. clutch & trans issues.
These are supposed to be flagship cars?

Seems the general can never get anything out the door without problems (big ones)! Hence, they are again in the dumper and everyone knows it. MB isnt far behind!

I still like my V though so all isnt lost.:D

Stop building crap! They will come.....:annoyed:
 

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It's amazing what happens when you build something and then start cutting corners. The Japanese (and Koreans) are better at putting together a car package that buyers will buy. A glance at my company's parking lots tells me who's selling cars. On the other hand, our American makers do things like build a high performance car without a hand brake or put in a weak rear end. Or build a Ford 500 and expect someone to love it BC it's a Ford, or GMC, etc. When will they learn its all in the details and if you decide to make a car, make it right.
 

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Actually, having read a good deal of the press ramblings about GM's finances lately, I'd have to say the trouble has less to do with product than many of us would believe. Although one could easily argue they're being cheap with product development due to their financial troubles, so everything is mixed I'm sure.

Word is that GM is being financially crippled because of their obligations to hundreds of thousands of former employees who pull pensions and medical benefits out of the bottom line and of course the additional demands of the unions. Toyota et al.... don't have to contend with these things to any degree approaching GM.

I often wonder if GM will ever have to make the choice between saving their business or keeping their obligations to all their pensioned-dependants. Many analysts fear that GM's only recourse is to kill the unions and cut all those pensioned-people off their dole. If they don't, they could end up going under and the hundreds of thousands of current GM workers would be unemployed.

I'm glad I'm not the one who'd have to make that decision. They may need a miracle.
 

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Apparently Gm's deal with the UAW prevents them from laying anybody off for any reason until late 2007.

There was time, before OSHA and miles of federal regulations on the issues, that the UAW and other unions were needed to protect workers rights and their safety. I think their benefit to society may need to be reassessed.

I'm not going to become the flame target here, but that is a crapload of needless expense. 30K workers times what....$50K each on the average in terms of salary + bennies? That comes to a cool $1.5B per year in payroll that they don't need.

flamesuit zipped, mask secured.
 

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crushing Vs with my Wurm
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....friggin unions. Cant tell you how many times Ive had to wait hours to get a wrench or screwdriver from the union wrench guy or the union pipefitter guy or the union electrical guy when I do ANY maintenance on UAW sites. Its like pulling teeth. What could be done in 5 minutes usually takes at least 2 hours and that is because the specific union guy has a list of shizzle to do prior to getting to the outside vendor help, then he will take his union specified 30 minute break. The fooking clowns had better get their heads out of their asses and take a good solid look at the monster they have created. Flame away....but the Japanese wrench/elex/pipefitter guys (associates) that I deal with will get me whatever I need asap to get their lines back up to speed. I used to loathe the Japanese, but damnit, its hard to be a hater when you see how they run things. Demming should have schooled us instead of them.



F
 

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Hmm imagine that UNION. I think it is next word for being LAZY. I know a lot of major companys have them especially up north, but they really seem to me to drag down the companys. The mentality of some people that i have meet in the union are lazy lazy people, and they get away with doing very little to nothing which causes major business money. They almost can't get fired, and or layed off in most cases, cause the union won't allow it. This is just my opinion of what I have witnessed up north, working for a major company.

I am from texas and sorry to say it but the people here wouldn't last that long with the attitude that they have toward work. Not saying that everyone is like that, but there are a lot of people that I have meet that are in unions and are just down right a drain to the company, cause there allowed to be.
 

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Florian said:
... Demming should have schooled us instead of them
F
Demming tried, but the ones in power wouldn't listen. The quality of goods out of Japan at the time (post war) didn't exist.:(

It is to bad that a lot of American companies only pay lip service to his methods.:mad:

A real good book about this is called: The Machine That Changed the World.
BRUTAL.:eek:
 

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this is getting way off track, but there is more to the issue than just quality and management according to Deming. Before he died he did quite a bit of lecturing and training in the US; all the big companies listened.

But there is a fundamental cultural difference between Americans and Japanese. In Japan, children are raised to believe that success of the enterprise or success of the society takes precedence over success of the individual. The nail that sticks up gets hammered down, but a clean tight group of nails makes a superior fastening.

In the US, we are raised to beleive that indivicual acheivement is the key to success, and the way to get to the top is to step on others to get there. Let yourself shine, but watch your ass on your way up.

It's much more complex than that, but therein lies the core of successul quality control in Japan from drawing board to the service bay, and therein lies many problems that face US companies. There is no simple answer; we are a different culture trying to play by the same rules, and failing. We can't change the culture overnight, but we can start to change the reward system and corporate management to try to correct for this.

Another significant problem lies in US corporate law. Short term rewards are all that is sought, rather than implementation and investment in a true long term strategy. Real long term investment will get you sued by stockholders!

Flame suit is back on.

dhg
 

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I agree that there is a bigger problem then quality.

With the cross platforms, and worldwide suppliers it is a blur as to where ones car is made, but not where it is assembled. :thepan:

The thing that seems to be missing from CADILLAC is the customer support to build up a loyal customer base, or at least it is spotty at best.

When was the last time you got a followup survey on your V that wasn't about how the dealer treated you?


I only ask that because as a "flagship" product, I as a manufacturer would want as much feedback as possible.
Warranty claims only give part of the picture.
 

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crushing Vs with my Wurm
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Heavy and 6,

Loud and clear! 5 by 5. No need for the flame suit...I think people know where I stand on unions. I am going to get that book at the library though and give it a read.

F
 

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Florian said:
Heavy and 6,

Loud and clear! 5 by 5. No need for the flame suit...I think people know where I stand on unions. I am going to get that book at the library though and give it a read.

F
Let me know what you think of the book.
It is at least 10 years old, but the observations are brutal and still apply.
It also points out that just being a Jap car company doesn't mean built in success.
What is really interesting is the approaches that each country has/had about manufacturing cars.
 

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I'd have to say the trouble has less to do with product than many of us would believe.
True is some respects, but if the big three still controlled 90% of the market share they could still pay their factory workers $60/hour and make a huge profit. But the fact of the matter is that the Big 3 pissed away their market share by building inferior products for decades. No one really wants to buy anything but American, but when one buys a Cadillac and is treated like they bought a used Aveo, they are practically being forced into the open arms of another manufacturer.

So yes, I agree the unions are a plague that must be crushed, but they are also being used as a scapegoat by an over paid management that continue to fail to recognize that they were the ones that ultimately allowed such inferior vehicles to make it to market for decades, while signing one ridiculous union contract after another as they stood by and watched their market share slide into oblivion.:want:
 

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crushing Vs with my Wurm
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Barak,

That was well thought out and hit the nail on the head...nicely done!

F
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Barak said:
True is some respects, but if the big three still controlled 90% of the market share they could still pay their factory workers $60/hour and make a huge profit. But the fact of the matter is that the Big 3 pissed away their market share by building inferior products for decades. No one really wants to buy anything but American, but when one buys a Cadillac and is treated like they bought a used Aveo, they are practically being forced into the open arms of another manufacturer.

So yes, I agree the unions are a plague that must be crushed, but they are also being used as a scapegoat by an over paid management that continue to fail to recognize that they were the ones that ultimately allowed such inferior vehicles to make it to market for decades, while signing one ridiculous union contract after another as they stood by and watched their market share slide into oblivion.:want:
Good point.
Unions have somewhat outlived their usefullness. They were a force when they were needed. They are no longer a lone force.
Also, they build Hondas and Toyota's here in the states. They are still on top. You have to sell on reputation not stand behind a name.
 

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Thanks guys. Good analogy Heavy.

Also, they build Hondas and Toyota's here in the states.
I'm not aware of a Honda or Toyota that is built by union labor other than maybe the Matrix or some other joint ventures. The factories ran by Toyota, Honda, Nissan, MB, Hyundai etc. do not have unions to my knowledge. They pay their people very well, but do not have to deal with the inefficiencies inherent of unions.
 

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Barak said:
Thanks guys. Good analogy Heavy.



I'm not aware of a Honda or Toyota that is built by union labor other than maybe the Matrix or some other joint ventures. The factories ran by Toyota, Honda, Nissan, MB, Hyundai etc. do not have unions to my knowledge. They pay their people very well, but do not have to deal with the inefficiencies inherent of unions.
As far as I know you are still correct. The unions have tried and will undoubtedly continue to try to move in, but they have been kept out by the companies convincing the employees that they are better off without them. But they also maintain a higher mfg. quality by having a better design process that allows for better manufacturability, and they support a company culture that promotes high quality.

In other words they don't put 310 ft. lb rated rearends in a car that develops 395 ft lbs of torque. If they did, the product manager would have to commit seppuku.

sayonara.
 

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6104696 said:
....If they did, the product manager would have to commit seppuku.

sayonara.
I'm starting to feel we might see those models at one point or another:

Chevy Seppuku
Buick Syonara

or

Cadillac Kaputt
GMC Auf Wiedersehen

-Chris
 
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