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Discussion Starter #1
If Caddy can make the Cien for at or under $100,000 and it can match the new GT in performance number but have more luxury, why the hell doesn't Caddy make it? I mean, if Ford proves that there is a viable market, shouldn't Caddy make the Cien as their ultimate halo car? People who don't care for domestics in general or GM specifically look at the Cien and think, "GAT'DAMN! About time!"

But, thats just my opinion but I don't see where I could be wrong.
 
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Discussion Starter #3
And why not? GM has a vast parts bin to choose from so everything doesn't have to be brand new. They could still use a Corvette engine that was turbocharged if they didn't use an entirely new engine. The Caddy roadster doesn't cost that much to make due to sharing so much with the Vette but GM just charges a premium for it.

Hey, Ford is doing it with the GT but GM can't match them? Personally, I don't buy it.
 

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GM always teases with cars like that and then pulls the plug. Look at the Cadillac racing program. In the short time that it existed, they were starting to do pretty good, and then they drop it. Well, at least they brought the EVOQ to production.
 

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scourge said:
And why not? GM has a vast parts bin to choose from so everything doesn't have to be brand new. They could still use a Corvette engine that was turbocharged if they didn't use an entirely new engine. The Caddy roadster doesn't cost that much to make due to sharing so much with the Vette but GM just charges a premium for it.

Hey, Ford is doing it with the GT but GM can't match them? Personally, I don't buy it.
The Cien can not be a parts-bin car. Who wants to pay mega bucks for a car with Impala ashtray - let alone major pieces. That's why it isn't a $100k car, and why it probably won't be built. :crying2:

Besides, the rear engine design doesn't lend itself to common pieces. Putting the LS6 in it would be the kiss of death in a really high dollar ride. I love the engine, but it isn't in the same ballpark as the superexotic's V10s and 12s. The Saleen is finding that out as we speak, and their engine is the Mustang DOHC, blown. Not sophisticated enough for the gentlemen who drop 200k for a handbuilt car. They don't want anything Ford or Chevy in their rides, and I can't blame them. Now a forced induction Northstar is another thing. :worship:
 
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Discussion Starter #6
catbert said:
The Cien can not be a parts-bin car. Who wants to pay mega bucks for a car with Impala ashtray - let alone major pieces. That's why it isn't a $100k car, and why it probably won't be built.
I'd say the same people willing to spend $100,000 of a Ford GT that uses the steering rack from a Ford Focus. Some parts simply cannot be improved ot the money spent would not be worth the minor improvement. Caddy has GM worldwide to draw parts from. The body, chassis, and engine would defintely be exclusive to the Cien and if Ford can show it is doable and profitable with the GT, then GM can also do this (and better I might add) with the Cien. It would bethe ultimate halo car for Caddy and GM. It would be a bold statement that Caddy is in fact back, and all the bullshit talk from the past GM people is over with. There is a new day at Caddy. Still, I say this only if....IF Ford shows profitability with the GT.


I love the engine, but it isn't in the same ballpark as the superexotic's V10s and 12s. The Saleen is finding that out as we speak, and their engine is the Mustang DOHC, blown. Not sophisticated enough for the gentlemen who drop 200k for a handbuilt car. They don't want anything Ford or Chevy in their rides, and I can't blame them. Now a forced induction Northstar is another thing.
Now the idea of a twin turbo NORTHSTAR is an interesting idea. :worship: Lingenfelter knows about TT engines for GM (over 700hp!) I would disagree that some might object to having parts from "lesser" cars in their halo car...as long as it offers a luxurious ride and can perform as well as the Ford GT.....or even Ferrari or Lambo. But, this is just my opinion about what GM/Caddy could and needs to do to really show they are for real.
 

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I'd say the same people willing to spend $100,000 of a Ford GT that uses the steering rack from a Ford Focus. Some parts simply cannot be improved ot the money spent would not be worth the minor improvement. Caddy has GM worldwide to draw parts from. The body, chassis, and engine would defintely be exclusive to the Cien and if Ford can show it is doable and profitable with the GT, then GM can also do this (and better I might add) with the Cien. It would bethe ultimate halo car for Caddy and GM. It would be a bold statement that Caddy is in fact back, and all the bullshit talk from the past GM people is over with. There is a new day at Caddy. Still, I say this only if....IF Ford shows profitability with the GT.


REPLY: The Ford GT is not intended to be a World Class anything - halo car yes, but not World Class. Caddy brands itself, righly or wrongly, as the standard of the World. Rather than a redo of a three decade old racer, the Cien would be a MODERN STANDARD, and would be judged as such. The Ford will be what the original was, an american racing hotrod.

The competition for the Cien would be the Aston Martin, Lambo and Ferarri, among others, clearly a different class than the $100k Ford

Ford is desperate for some sizzle, and will risk losing money on a small production item. Caddy isn't in the kind of trouble that Ford is. They would rather not do it than do it on the cheap. As much as I'd like to see the Cien, I agree with them.
 
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Discussion Starter #8
I disagree about the Ford GT not being a world class car anything. Its clearly intended to be a world class performance car that beat everything Europe had to offer and now with improved technology, it will do that again in addition to beating the rest of the world. The GT will be a halo car for just this reason....not because its "purdy."


As for Caddy branding itself as the standard of the world? Those days are loooooooooooooooong gone. Even Lutz admits that Caddy ain't up to snuff yet but the CTS and new offerings are meant to do that. A do agree that the Cien would be the modern GM standard to showcase what they can do. As for competition being Aston Marton, Lambo, Ferrari, NSX? Of course they are just as the Ford GT would be. But, I don't see why the Cien can't beat these cars performance and luxury in a single package. And, I can also see the Cien coming in cheaper to all but the NSX.

Using parts from other cars that simply cannot be improved upon is not doing things on the cheap. Its business sense and if Ford shows a viable market with the GT, then the Cien could easily step in as well. And, if Caddy really does improve their lineup quality, then the Cien can demonstrate Caddy at their finest and showcase what can be found in some of their other cars. It would erve as an excellent and functional halo car. There is a way to brig it into existence and I hope Ford does well enough with their GT to warrant a GM reaction. Its about time American car companies started acting like world class companies again. With the Cien, GM would have a right to.
 

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From what I've read, the Ford GT is a world class chassis. It is 'stiffer' than the Ferrari 360. They both have V8's too. So V10, 12 or 16 isn't required at this 'low' price level.

The Ford GT will be successful because the original GT40 not only beat Ferrari when it was run by Enzo himself, but they did it by taking 1st, 2nd and 3rd place at Le Mans. It gets it's 'halo' from the original. If it didn't have it's history, then demand wouldn't be nearly as high.

GM has never, ever done that and they likely never will (unless they buy Audi). Not that they couldn't if they really wanted too, but their racing funds are spread too thin and NASCAR sells more Chevy trucks than Le Mans could ever sell Cadillacs (or Corvettes). A CTS-V touring car running in Germany, Britain and Japan would be a good marketing tool.

I think Cadillac would do better to spend their money on a large luxury sedan to compete against the S-Class and 7-Series. They already have the XLR as their 'halo' car. Since luxury sedans sell in much larger quantities than mid-engine sports cars, I wouldn't think too highly of Cadillac (GM) for wasting time and money building the Cien while letting the Germans and Lexus have the large sedan market to themselves. Offering a large sedan with a V12 for under $100k would be a much better halo car for them to build.

Thank God Lutz gets it. Otherwise GM might have done just that and slowly handed over their #1 in the world title to Toyota, who doesn't have a mid-engine high performance sports car, in concept or production.
 
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Discussion Starter #10
I think the CTS-v idea is a good one. The people who buy luxury sedans like to know there is one in a marque's stable that has more "panache" than their neighbor's ride. I don't see how the Cien would take away from building world class sedans though. The Cien would serve as the top in terms of technology, luxury, and performance. The Cien would showcase not only what Caddy CAN do.....but what they ARE doing in all their cars - even ones that aren't $100,000.

Its not that I can afford a Cien if built but its a car I would like to see made. America is certainly the HOME of the car, although not its actual birthplace. We have the best roads in the world available to enjoy such a car on too. I do agree that a realistic Caddy Sixteen with a high performance boosted V8, V10, or even V12 would make one hell of a ride. Honestly, I don't see why Caddy can't do both. There wouldn't be competition betwen the two - Cien is the supercar and the "Sixteen" would be the super sedan. I just think the XLR is just too related to the Corvette to be billed as a world class car.

A Cien would be a step up and to have a racing program with the Cien where it could beat Ferrari and Lamborghini could go a long way with the crowd that Caddy is now aiming for. Any, by having a "Sixteen" available with the Cien gives these people more cars to choose from. It seems that Caddy really is taking a step up...so why not go all out and take a market and dominate it?

Toyota is growing and had it not been for Lutz, GM may well be facing bankruptcy protection and selling off its foreign divisions. GM should project an image of strength as image is so important to the market Caddy wants to go after.
 

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The Cien would be a great idea for the Cadillac line and GM in general as well. As much as I love Cadillacs and GM in general, some things are just a joke. Take the Escalade for example. Please, it's just a denali that has had some interior and exterior changes, and has been rebagdged. The CTS-V is a step in the right direction. Hell, we even have some of the bimmer folk talking about it as a contender. If it does in fact prove to be a big hit and a contender in the genre of Luxury-sport cars, that should give GM the go ahead and produce the Cien. Its time for companies that are actually American bagdged to start contending with the Aston Martins and Bugattis, all while keeping a lower price than it's European counterparts.
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Agreed. To me, its like a prince just after the king dies - its time to step and be the greatest. GM had a great legacy that was squandered for over 20 years but America is unquestionably the best car country in the world. Its time to start acting like it.

It reminds me of the pathetic operations at Harley. They have been surpassed by every major motorcycle marque on the planet. Their tech is outdated and outgunned. They didn't just stop their AMA racing program (one they dominated for years), they got embarassed out. Its not that they could not compete with the world's best, its just that they wouldn't. And so, Harley remains content to be a second rate motorcycle maker living on past glory. Those who grew up in the heyday of Harley are getting on up in age and those of us who are younger and wouldn't touch a Harley will simply not opt for an inferior bike just because of the name. I wonder if they will have to go through another down time to finally start marketing to younger people.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
In regards to the Caddy needs to get back to racing thread, I thought I would bump this and propose a Cien racing program. Don't know where it would go, but couldn't it go back to the LeMans circuit racing in a different class than the LMP?
 
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