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04 CTS-V with a little hp persuasion device
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Discussion Starter #1
This is the email I got back from the tuner I wanted to use. Please tell me this guy has fallen off his rocker about how much it cost to get tuned. Whats up with a two bar system? I dont recall anybody ever talking about their tuner having to upgrade the car to a 2 bar so you can tune it correctly. I'm waiting on a response from the tuner for an explanation to the 2 bar upgrade.

"At least you got rid of the ms4 cam, but I would not have lowered the
compression from stock. Did you blow that engine up at Hallett last
year? I remember seeing a cts-v car there last year one weekend that
sounded sick all day until it popped. I hope that wasn't yours.

Your car needs to have an ngk tr6 or 7 plug in it, gapped at .035", and
the fuel system, I hope, is upgraded properly. If I get a 4-5 psi fuel
pressure drop by the end of the wot dyno run in 4th, it needs upgrading.
Your cost is $850-$900, and includes me upgrading the car to a 2 bar
operating system, so it can be tuned properly, and the maf maxing out is
not an issue.

The 18th of May is open at this point. I just need to get your contact
phone# , and if you want to schedule it for that day.

Jim"
 

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2016 ATS Premium 6-spd MT
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You need to shop around, IMHO.

Because I'm running without a MagnaVolt, my tuner monitored the fuel pressure very closely as it dropped from about 60 psi at idle down to about 30 psi (+ or -) at 6,500 RPM WOT. At that point, he was able to keep the A/F just rich enough (~12:1) to be a safe tune, and he expressed, in so many words, that he felt uncomfortable allowing the fuel pressure to drop any further. Still, that's approx a 30 psi drop, so I don't think a 4-5 psi drop will be problem for you even though you've got other mods I don't have.

Another (well-known) tuner wanted to change plugs and install a MagnaVolt and charge me a bunch of cash and wouldn't even quote me price. I'm still running stock plugs and, needless to say, I didn't go to them.



[One further note: Rick (StealthV) did my original maggie tune, and it was nearly dead on as it ran about 466 rwhp on the first run. A second dyno run at Wheel to Wheel (with a small measure of heat soak) allowed their tuner to more or less just tweak/refine/confirm what Rick had done and yielded 472 rwhp.]
 

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04 CTS-V with a little hp persuasion device
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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the response rand49er.

This is the response I got back from the tuner.

"Sounds good. Yes, the map sensor is replaced, along with the new OS, and
the tables have to be populated to start, then I can get to tuning."
 

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04 CTS-V with a little hp persuasion device
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Discussion Starter #4
TTT

Whats the average price to be tuned with a maggie? Has anybody else done the two bar map to tune correctly?
 

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05 Maggied V Black/Black
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I have a speed density tune with a 2 bar (the part is about $40) which requires a different OS, it shouldn't cost more than $500-600 IMHO. You probably would not want or need the speed density for a DD. Populating the tables requires several pulls on the dyno. You should go to a colder plug. The fuel story is a quandry, you have a nice built engine, what is it worth for insurance against severe damage. A return system is expensive and adding a pump in the tank is incredibably expensive
 

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04 CTS-V with a little hp persuasion device
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Discussion Starter #6
Thats what I'm trying to figure out is were he comes up with 850-900 dollars. I have the tr6 plugs right now, do you think I should go to a 7? Also, I'm not looking to squeeze every last bit of power out of this thing. I bought the engine because it was cheaper than a stock LS6 and I know it would last with the maggie. My question is do you think I need anything other than a magna volt to keep the fuel on par with the air?

I'm going to ask him what it would cost without him doing the 2 bar system. In other words I'll install it and trailer it to him, all he has to do is tune it. I dont want anybody changing any parts on my car.
 

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2016 ATS Premium 6-spd MT
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Thats what I'm trying to figure out is were he comes up with 850-900 dollars. I have the tr6 plugs right now, do you think I should go to a 7? Also, I'm not looking to squeeze every last bit of power out of this thing. I bought the engine because it was cheaper than a stock LS6 and I know it would last with the maggie. My question is do you think I need anything other than a magna volt to keep the fuel on par with the air?

I'm going to ask him what it would cost without him doing the 2 bar system. In other words I'll install it and trailer it to him, all he has to do is tune it. I dont want anybody changing any parts on my car.
I agree with Gene that you might want to provide some insurance in the fuel delivery area especially compared to my situation where your motor can probably consume a bit more fuel under severe operation than mine is capable of.

Question (ok, here goes my ignorance for all to see): Does a two bar sensor provide the tuner with more of a closed loop measuring capability to tune with a FI application? :confused: Is that why he wants you to upgrade to that?
 

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2018 CT6E, old: 2014 XTS Vsport, 2005 CTS-V, 2004 CTS-V.
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The 2-bar MAP is needed to tune above 100kpa as your stock 1 bar stops at 105kpa. There about 7 kpa per pound of boost. Otherwise after 100-105kpa or when you start to make boost the tuner is just guessing the fueling via VE table and PE with a WB. PE takes over and it is just a ratio that they'll start off rich and compare to wideband reading and lean it out to the desire AR. Most shops just make it safe up to 4000 where PE takes over and tune the PE at full throttle. The VE and MAF are not touched which makes it sort of hack method but your full throttle is safe and your mid range is so-so. This is how they make their money. Quality time is spent tuning with the new broader map provided by the 2-bar first with VE or MAP based tune in the case your MAF fails, then a MAF tune. Both of these need adjustment in fuel for the new power.

What W2W did with Randy's car was monitor fuel pressure and just add more more fuel in that upper rpm range in PE. The Magna/Stealth tune was close until you use a WB to lean out a bit, this uncovering more power. Leaning out takes less stress off the fuel pump also.

Not sure what engine you just installed but the higher compression (10.5) of the LS6 is more like to experience knock under boost that say a LS1 with 10:1. The one range colder sparkplug will help lesson detonation by extending further into the chamber. The smaller sparkplug gap will less likely blow out the spark kernel.

Stock MAF is good to about 7 psi then your guessing as it's frequency is maxed out
I am working real slow with TR6 gapped @ stock, , 1-bar map and stock fuel system. Most of my learning curve is HPTuners(BTW, there is a Maggie tune in the repository) as there quite a few tables and many of them overlap. It's quite intricate.

You need to find someone with HPTuners and flash that Maggie tune in for $100 or so, then proceed cautiously until you know the tune is compatible with your setup.

Shit! You can buy HPTuners for around $600 and WB for $200 and another couple hundred for 2-bar map and plugs and your set. :)


Norm
 

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2018 CT6E, old: 2014 XTS Vsport, 2005 CTS-V, 2004 CTS-V.
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If you figure 7.5 psi for the Maggie your half through the 2-bar map(14.7 for each bar). The new map will go to 200kpa instead of the stock 1-bar.

Norm

... Does a two bar sensor provide the tuner with more of a closed loop measuring capability to tune with a FI application? :confused: Is that why he wants you to upgrade to that?
 

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04 CTS-V with a little hp persuasion device
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Discussion Starter #10
To be honest, I dont feel comfortable doing this kind of thing myself. Tuning that is. I found out by searching around that a baro sensor off a saturn ion redline is a two bar and will plug into the map harness. Its basically a 2 bar map but in the saturn they use it as a baro sensor. This sensor is around $40 from a dealer or online source. I will go ahead and buy the 2 bar sensor and find somebody that can tune this thing. I just think that this dude fell off the crazy train trying to charge me $900 to tune a car. Of course thats him trying to charge me for parts and labor to change the map sensor also. I haven't received an answer to how much if I buy the sensor and install it myself.

Also, my car is around 9.2-9.4:1 CR
 

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2018 CT6E, old: 2014 XTS Vsport, 2005 CTS-V, 2004 CTS-V.
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You'll have to buy Cobalt SS/Saturn Redline map. I have two numbers written down and can't remember if one replaced the other or one is the sensor and one the pigtail. Got the info from LS1Tech.

12615136
12580698

Norm

To be honest, I dont feel comfortable doing this kind of thing myself. Tuning that is. I found out by searching around that a baro sensor off a saturn ion redline is a two bar and will plug into the map harness. Its basically a 2 bar map but in the saturn they use it as a baro sensor. This sensor is around $40 from a dealer or online source. I will go ahead and buy the 2 bar sensor and find somebody that can tune this thing. I just think that this dude fell off the crazy train trying to charge me $900 to tune a car. Of course thats him trying to charge me for parts and labor to change the map sensor also. I haven't received an answer to how much if I buy the sensor and install it myself.

Also, my car is around 9.2-9.4:1 CR
 

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04 CTS-V with a little hp persuasion device
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Discussion Starter #12
yeah the 12580698 is the sensor and plugs into the LS6 map harness with no modifications. I've been reading up on this over there as well.
 

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11v,2 09 v's,2 05 v's,5 GTM supercars,viper,volt,2012 karma
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If you are at 30psi at wot that is BAD. Think of this. With a boosted intake, the amount of boost you have in the intake also effects APPLIED fuel pressure to your intake. Say on my 05 V for example, im running 18psi to the poor motor, and my fuel pressure is at 78 psi at WOT. Why did i do that you ask? Well all the fuel tables N/A are close to being very accurate but at the stock 60 PSI. BUT boost directly modifies that applied fuel pressure into the intake. So for the applied fuel pressure to still be 60psi of pressure into the intake, you have to over compensate by the amount of boost you are putting into it.

So for your car, if it is at 30psi at wot and you are making 9 to 10 lbs of boost.. that means you are only dumping in 20psi of fuel into the intake.. Very poor fuel atomization will be happening, very bad, and a VERY HIGH potential for faliure..



Another thing. You always want to run the hottest plug you can get away with in any motor. Usually a tr6 is a starting point, but you need to read the plugs after a wot spat.. It will tell you alot of things..

Usually people with 8 psi or less can get away with a tr55 which is VERY close to the stock heat setting. Makes more low end power.

Also anyone saying a .o35 gap on the plugs are crazy. You can use .044 just fine, you JUST HAVE TO MODIFY THE COIL DWELL SETTINGS to make it have a MUCH hotter spark. You will run alot more efficently and burn more each combustion event. On my car making 853 hp, im using a .050 gap and a 6-8 Dwell. compared to the stock 2-3.

That also helps make the car not smell of unburnt fuel at idle on cars with no Meows in the exhaust.
 

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I like a plug to show a little carbon up so when you do those wot spat and the light carbon build up is still there your safe.

How many miles did you get out of those coils? Guys here don't want to be changing them every other year. :)


Norm


If you are at 30psi at wot that is BAD. Think of this. With a boosted intake, the amount of boost you have in the intake also effects APPLIED fuel pressure to your intake. Say on my 05 V for example, im running 18psi to the poor motor, and my fuel pressure is at 78 psi at WOT. Why did i do that you ask? Well all the fuel tables N/A are close to being very accurate but at the stock 60 PSI. BUT boost directly modifies that applied fuel pressure into the intake. So for the applied fuel pressure to still be 60psi of pressure into the intake, you have to over compensate by the amount of boost you are putting into it.

So for your car, if it is at 30psi at wot and you are making 9 to 10 lbs of boost.. that means you are only dumping in 20psi of fuel into the intake.. Very poor fuel atomization will be happening, very bad, and a VERY HIGH potential for faliure..



Another thing. You always want to run the hottest plug you can get away with in any motor. Usually a tr6 is a starting point, but you need to read the plugs after a wot spat.. It will tell you alot of things..

Usually people with 8 psi or less can get away with a tr55 which is VERY close to the stock heat setting. Makes more low end power.

Also anyone saying a .o35 gap on the plugs are crazy. You can use .044 just fine, you JUST HAVE TO MODIFY THE COIL DWELL SETTINGS to make it have a MUCH hotter spark. You will run alot more efficently and burn more each combustion event. On my car making 853 hp, im using a .050 gap and a 6-8 Dwell. compared to the stock 2-3.

That also helps make the car not smell of unburnt fuel at idle on cars with no Meows in the exhaust.
 

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Most aftermarket controllers that are compatible with the ls1 coils run them what i run mine at. I have yet to have one fail. Usually on high horsepower applications, i switch to the truck ones with the heatsink on them. But when you use them you can get away with alot more spark gap then the standard ls1 base coil..
 

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04 CTS-V with a little hp persuasion device
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Discussion Starter #16
TTT

Is a 2 bar a necessary evil? Has anybody else done this other than stkshkr? There are plenty of maggie guys on here. What do you have?

I got an email back from SW tuning and he charges 100 for the map and says it takes a different connector. Why not just use the $40 one that doesn't require any hacking of the harness? Anyway, basically said this:


100 bucks for the map, the map sensor connector is different (I do not
charge for the connector nor the wiring it in properly), and $150.00 per
hour for 5 hours of tuning, and with the nature of converting these
operating systems, I usually end up spending more than 5 hours on it to
complete a full tune, so I could bill you by the hour, and it would be
more. You are welcome to go to Ed Wright, who, if he does the same
quality a job as me, will be more expensive, I promise you, or you could
go to one of the many guys running a hobby out of their house, whom I
hear folks complaining about their tunes from. From a budget
standpoint, I understand, but if you think my tune is the same as one of
the other guys charging for beer money, no, it's not the same. It just
depends on where your priorities are with the value of what a proper
tune will do for you, and distinguishing between who knows what they are
doing(and not), and will they actually do that job well for you. It's up
to you.

jim
 

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'06 Z06, '05 CTS-V 453rwhp/434rwtq (sold)
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I am using the stock MAP, max boost was 6.7. My tuner had no issues tuning the car whatsoever, and for $400.

Do you have any idea what kind of boost you will see? I don't see why you have to buy the special MAP when so many people run the cobalt ss ones without problems.
 

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04 CTS-V with a little hp persuasion device
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Discussion Starter #18
Well I hit almost 7.5 with nothing but headers so I imagine it may rise slightly with full exhaust. I cant see it going up a lot but maybe another half pound or a pound at most. Depends on how much back pressure is there. I dont know what map he uses thats $100 and requires cutting the harness.
 

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2004 CTS-V
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My tuner had no problem doing my initial tune with the blower for under $400. All cars are different though.
 
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