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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have been through a few iterations of injectors for my V.

1) Seimens Deka #62's (idle sucked)
2) Drill Stock #80's (everything sucked)

I finally have an injector in my car that just works

Injector Dynamics ID850's
They flow 97lbs/hr @ 4 bar and a minimum pulse width of .4ms (great idle)

Injector Dynamics provides every data point with their injectors. Voltage offsets, delta pressure, and short pulse adders. Actually verified and tested not interpolated.

I had put back stock injectors (thanks for the reco Jesse) to run down some issues (ended up being the drilled injectors, CAI and my custom lid needed tweaking).

I loaded the data that DSX Tuning provided with the injectors. I popped in the ID850 injectors car fired right up and idled better than it did with stock injectors (matched to +1/-1%). Did a little MAF transfer clean up in my tune and hello world drives like butter. WOT is dialed, when the car goes into PE it hits commanded AFR faster and I am at 62% injector duty cycle.

Hoping for cool weather Saturday for a dyno pull... come on 600RWHP

I want to thanks to Dave at DSX Tuning and Paul Yaw of Injector Dynamics for pointing me in the right direction with these injectors and some other tricks.
 

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Very happy for you sir....injectors are on my todo list...
 

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ANY injector will do the same, you just have to have them setup correctly. It is as simple as that.

No need to spend 880 dollars on some injectors! With the right tables put in the computer will work flawlessly to provide the correct fueling in any situation and with any fuel pressure.....

Im in the process of setting up spread sheets that show exactly what tables you need to modify and how for each type of injector. It will make your lives alot easier when you are tuning for yourself..
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Too little too late Jesse :)

If I am correct NONE of the other injectors out there flow at .4ms.

Most cheat fuel pressure at idle and don't get the same spray pattern

Be sure to include offset vs pressure vs IGNV , flow rate vs press, short pulse adder and Min injector pulse.

This will help everyone tremendously.

I am VERY happy with my $880 purchase.

For more info www.injectordynamics.com/drillbitsanddipshits.html

Very informative
 
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But dont different injectors have different spray patterns and different patterns can affect drivability?

Also PHX your linky no work
 

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ANY injector will do the same, you just have to have them setup correctly. It is as simple as that.

No need to spend 880 dollars on some injectors! With the right tables put in the computer will work flawlessly to provide the correct fueling in any situation and with any fuel pressure.....

Im in the process of setting up spread sheets that show exactly what tables you need to modify and how for each type of injector. It will make your lives alot easier when you are tuning for yourself..
I respectfully disagree with you.

The only injectors that have all of the proper calibration data are OEM injectors for OEM applications, like Bosch, Delphi, Siemens Deka... and then Injector Dynamics. ID is the only aftermarket injector supplier that provides the voltage offset and short pulse adder data for injectors in addition to flow rate data, and not just flow rate data generated at one pressure (which is typically 3 bar). The Bernoulli equation to convert flow rate doesn't reflect real world conditions. The fact of the matter is, nobody can "tune in" the voltage offset and short pulse adder data. It has to be determined using specialized equipment. I can promise that an Excel spreadsheet will not match the accuracy and precision of $150,000 worth of equipment that ID uses.

Almost any injector can be made to work at high pulsewidths. It's the short pulse area that separates the men from the boys, and this is where injectors are operating during idle and low load driving. This is where the voltage offset (or dead time) and short pulse adder data really comes into play, and relies on it being totally accurate in order to provide predictable, reliable, and repeatable fueling based on what is commanded. These injector pulsewidth modifiers work to convert the theoretical pulsewidth into an actual pulsewidth.

While the data for the Ford Racing injectors, like old school green tops, Siemens Deka 60s, and Siemens Deka 80s can be converted from the low slope/high slope format into short pulse adder, it's still not 100% correct, although it's a better estimation than trying to use whatever is in the calibration to begin with. The fact of the matter is, the short pulse area of operation isn't linear. This means the "low slope" conversion doesn't really work perfect, and leaves room for error. I'd post a link to a good graph representing this, but my post count is too low. :(

That said, having actual calibrated data for not only flow rate but also the voltage offset and short pulse adder is critical in making a large injector behave around idle conditions. You really get what you pay for with Injector Dynamics, not only because of the data they provide, but also because their injectors are matched based on flow rate AS WELL AS response time! You won't find that anywhere else, because no other company has the equipment to even measure that short of OEM manufacturers.

The SD60s with the Greg Banish data work OK, but ID injectors with the actual developed data are night and day different when it comes to start up, idle control, and drivability. Without the appropriate data, large injectors (80lbs or higher) will struggle to maintain decent fueling at idle unless you drop fuel pressure down to a pressure that will put the huge injector at 3-4ms for idle. Variable fuel pressure control helps to make this happen, but it's a bandaid to an easily solved problem.

I would challenge any tuner to try a set of IDs against any other injector, and give an honest report of what they think.

FWIW, I am a GM tuner (and an injector snob) that works primarily with cars running big injectors, and I can say with absolute certainty that IDs blow away everything out there. They're freakin expensive, but oh so worth it. That's why their injectors are in my twin turbo C6 Z06.
 

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The lower fuel pressure allows you to maintain a larger pulsewidth if you have issues with them not being able to open well at slower times. That is an easy fix. An injector sprays just fine at .6 ms.. The reason you need would ever need to be .4 is that that injector is WAY to big for your application and fuel usage. You need a 72lb from the looks of it. When you select a size you need to pick one that is in your horsepower range both future and present, but within reason.

A fuel injector sprays a nice pattern still at 30psi as well, fords run lower pressures and ramp up pressure as fuel is needed as well, just like gm started to do.

If you choose a smaller fuel lb per hour, then that brings up your pulsewidth requirement all around..


Also remember when you are modifying the stock injector, all they are doing it opening up the head of the injector allowing more fuel to flow thru at a givin time. That DOES NOT CHANGE its "electric guts" to make it perform any faster or slower. That stays the same. You are just changing the volumes....

Just a fyi, A stock injector on your lsa will go down to .4194 ms smoothly on a scope @ 13.4 volts and a stock impedence driver without a noticable hickup on the screen.. So if punched out to 100lb per hour, it would still be able to go down to .4194 pulsewidth just fine.. Most of the time though, you want higher pulsewidths, like around .6 - .8 for idle conditions.. Which is why that is the target of why they pick the low pressure fuel pump pressure mode where they do.. :)
 

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Dave,

On the subject of the other persons injector data, I have used thier injectors before and the injectors work just like everyone elses with no gains one way or another... Also just like thier data for puting into the calibration. It isnt even close on a lot of them. A test of that is, if you have a tune perfectly setup, then introduce ONLY those injectors, and keep fuel pressures the same and the only change was the injectors, the vehicle should respond, have the same trims, and the same fueling at wot, ect if you put in the tables provided... But that isnt the case, they always need tweeked from what they provide in those spreadsheets..

My data allows you to put in the injectors, and do the tables, and everything is right back in line with no tweeking of anything fuel injector related.. You have the same trims, the same idle fueling, the same wot fuel ratio ect.... NOTHING else needs tweeked....

Most of the stuff i saw in thier list, dont even match what i see here in person with the same type of equipment of what they supposedly tested. I have access to alot of things i probably shouldnt fuel wise.. :> ....... So i gave up and just went back to what works here in person everyday tested tried and true.. I too build twin turbo cars... Injectors are injectors........
 

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ANY injector will do the same, you just have to have them setup correctly. It is as simple as that.

No need to spend 880 dollars on some injectors! With the right tables put in the computer will work flawlessly to provide the correct fueling in any situation and with any fuel pressure.....

Im in the process of setting up spread sheets that show exactly what tables you need to modify and how for each type of injector. It will make your lives alot easier when you are tuning for yourself..
How do you propose to generate the pressure dependent flow rate, pressure dependent offset, low pulse adder, and voltage sensitivity without injector response curves?
 

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Paul, Shale i set up all the injector values for an injector i have here at 80lb at 3 bar, that you request,send you the injector and if im within 1% error on the info i provide for you, i get a 10,000 paypal payment sent to [email protected]??
 

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This is false. At lower pressures, the atomization can suffer. Fords will drop pressure because when you are operating out of boost (ie: pulling a vacuum), you're increasing your effective pressure, otherwise known as the pressure across the rail or differential pressure. Ford tries to maintain this at 3 bar, so you're never really getting down to 30psi, although it may be that low in the rail itself.

An injector won't actually go down to .4 ms. The PCM will say it needs that THEORETICAL pulse width, but the ACTUAL pulsewidth will be somewhere around 1.2ms, give or take. Theoretical pulsewidth is what the PCM determines is needed to meet the demanded fuel mass based on a perfect world with an injector that is 100% linear down to 0ms and has no delay. In the real world, the injector has a delay and doesn't function linear at short pulsewidths, and those are the adders that get piled on to the theoretical pulsewidth to arrive at an actual commanded pulsewidth for the injector.

Modifying an injector most certainly does change the short pulse adder data along with the voltage offset, however the impact is far greater on the short pulse adder data. Read the first link that PhxTriode posted (although it needs to end in DrillbitsAndDipshits because the link is case sensitive). This article will clearly explain why the data changes when an injector is modified. While the internals of the injector don't change, the dynamic characterization does indeed change drastically. Also, ID doesn't redrill any injectors. Redrilling can result in destruction of the spray pattern, as some of the holes will just spit out a laminar stream of fuel. That's not a good thing. I'll be interested to hear your reasoning for why the voltage offset and short pulse data doesn't change when modifying an injector's flow rate after seeing the characterization graphs.

As far as data not jiving, I've only run into that when going from mystery injectors to IDs... Never stock to IDs.
 

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Paul, Shale i set up all the injector values for an injector i have here at 80lb at 3 bar, that you request,send you the injector and if im within 1% error on the info i provide for you, i get a 10,000 paypal payment??
You have deflected, rather than answer my question.

Let me put it in simpler terms.

If I tell you that I am 6'2", and weigh 230lbs, but give you no other information, can you provide an accurate facsimile of me?

That is essentially what you are proposing to do with a fuel injector.

Back to my original question, how do you propose to generate an accurate injector model without a response curve?
 
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