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I bought my 87 Fleetwood about 2 months ago and think its a great family car but it needs more power. The car is virtually showroom new even with 85k miles, the ex owner (75 yr old neighbor) kept it in the garage from day 1. Its got the 307 Olds motor that runs perfect but IMO has way too little power for this big car. I have a 350 Iroc motor from an 87 Iroc in my garage w/only 6k miles on a complete rebuilt. I would like to install this motor in the Fleetwood but am concerned that by the time I'm done with the swap and buy all the parts needed it would end up being costly. Does the Fleetwood share the same chassis as a Chevy Caprice?. If so, I could probably find all the accessories and mounts, etc.. from a Caprice at the junkyard. I am also debating buying a remanufactured Olds 350. The Chevy motor has 235 hp and 300 (or more) ft/lbs torque so I think it should move the Caddy fairly well, I'm not sure what a mid 70's 350 Olds motor is pushing but I assume its around 160 or so hp.

Would I be able to use the A/C compressor from the 307 on the Chevy motor or will I have to replace the compressor? I know I'd have to modify the lines from the A/C being that the compressors are mounted on opposite sides between Chevy and Olds. What other probs would I have?. Basically I just want to know if it would be costlier to install my 350 Chevy or just buy a 350 Olds for the car. I assume the 350 Olds would be a direct bolt in but I'd have to get a different intake. Any help/comments would be appreciated.
 

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1991 Cadillac Brougham D'Elegance 5.7 Litre, 1994 DeVille
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Broughams are bigger then the Caprice is. The 1991 & 1992s had the 305 and some 1990-92s had the 5.7L as an option while it was standard on the 1993-96 ones so if you use your 350 and there are parts from a Caprice that don't you should be able to order them.
 

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Caprices and Fleetwoods share a similar chassis.It shouldn't be a problem to find what you need at a bone yard. Keep in mind that if you don't have a tranny for the chevy motor you will have to get one. The olds tranny in your caddy doesn't come with the dual bolt pattern setup. Another thing is that early 70's olds 350's were known as rocket motors. I have a 70 rocket 350 in my 85 fleetwood brougham, and it was rated at 325hp before I changed the cam, intake manifold and did other assorted goodies to it...

Lets just say I loved being the sleeper of the neighborhood!!!
 
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brougham said:
Broughams are bigger then the Caprice is. The 1991 & 1992s had the 305 and some 1990-92s had the 5.7L as an option while it was standard on the 1993-96 ones so if you use your 350 and there are parts from a Caprice that don't you should be able to order them.
Well yeah but I was actually talking about a 78-90 Caprice for the necessary parts to do the swap. Most had 305's, thats true but the 305 and 350 are externally the same so mounts, exhaust manifolds, A/C hardware, brackets, etc would all be the same. Were the A/C compressors themselves the same between an 80's Caprice and a Fleetwood w/307? I'm assuming the brackets were different but wonder if the compressor itself would work.
 

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Yeah, the compressors are the same, but you will have to get the a\c manifold hose from a chevy.
 
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FASSTWOOD said:
Caprices and Fleetwoods share a similar chassis.It shouldn't be a problem to find what you need at a bone yard. Keep in mind that if you don't have a tranny for the chevy motor you will have to get one. The olds tranny in your caddy doesn't come with the dual bolt pattern setup. Another thing is that early 70's olds 350's were known as rocket motors. I have a 70 rocket 350 in my 85 fleetwood brougham, and it was rated at 325hp before I changed the cam, intake manifold and did other assorted goodies to it...

Lets just say I loved being the sleeper of the neighborhood!!!
I wish I did have a rocket motor just for the sake of keeping things simple. Not too long ago I had a 330 rocket motor from my 67 Olds that I swapped a 455 into but sold it cause it was just sitting in my garage for 2 years. Ran strong and was rated at 310hp. Those had the steel crank and high compression. Would have come handy right now. The 60's and early 70's motors were gross rated not net rated so even though it had 310hp it would be a lot lower if it were net rated. Still, it was a good revver and would have been a huge improvement over the 307. I think I'll start gathering what I need a drop the Chevy into it. The 350 was running 13.8's in my Iroc and had a $2800 rebuild so even if it pushes the Caddy to a high 15 - mid 16 sec 1/4 mile time I'd be happy. Not that it will be raced but I'd like to keep up with traffic. I was under the impression that the 87 Fleetwood had the dual bolt pattern tranny, I'll have to check.
 

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If you're doing this swap really soon, lemme know! I'm swapping a 307 into my 85 to replace my crappy HT4100, and I'm in need of motor mounts and brackets from a 307 equipped brougham! I think mine will be a bit quicker off the line than broughams that came stock with an Olds 307. I was looking at a site thats at 50megsforfree.com or somethin like that, about the history of caddys. I guess 307 equipped fleetwoods had 2.96 rear ends while 4100 equipped ones had 3.43s. So that difference in gear ratio should give me a little more getup n gitit, I hope. My buddy swapped a 3.73 posi rear end into his otherwise stock 307 powered 82 delta 88 and that sucker will burn em off pretty darn good.
 

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Destroyer said:
Well yeah but I was actually talking about a 78-90 Caprice for the necessary parts to do the swap. Most had 305's, thats true but the 305 and 350 are externally the same so mounts, exhaust manifolds, A/C hardware, brackets, etc would all be the same. Were the A/C compressors themselves the same between an 80's Caprice and a Fleetwood w/307? I'm assuming the brackets were different but wonder if the compressor itself would work.
I wasn't talking about the 1990-1996, Caprices. I was talking about the Cadillacs- all RWDs from from 1990-1996 have the Chevy engines. So like I said, IF there are parts from a Caprice that won't work you should be able to order the part for one of those Cadillacs instead.
 
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brougham said:
I wasn't talking about the 1990-1996, Caprices. I was talking about the Cadillacs- all RWDs from from 1990-1996 have the Chevy engines. So like I said, IF there are parts from a Caprice that won't work you should be able to order the part for one of those Cadillacs instead.
Gotcha :coffee: . I just wasn't sure whether or not an 87 Caddy had anything in common with say a 96 Caddy or Caprice for that matter. I figured if the Fleetwood was based on the same frame as a Caprice of the same year or body style it would be easier.
 
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Mogul345 said:
If you're doing this swap really soon, lemme know! I'm swapping a 307 into my 85 to replace my crappy HT4100, and I'm in need of motor mounts and brackets from a 307 equipped brougham! I think mine will be a bit quicker off the line than broughams that came stock with an Olds 307. I was looking at a site thats at 50megsforfree.com or somethin like that, about the history of caddys. I guess 307 equipped fleetwoods had 2.96 rear ends while 4100 equipped ones had 3.43s. So that difference in gear ratio should give me a little more getup n gitit, I hope. My buddy swapped a 3.73 posi rear end into his otherwise stock 307 powered 82 delta 88 and that sucker will burn em off pretty darn good.
First I need to know for sure if I have the dual bolt pattern bellhousing on the Fleetwood. Some say the 87 Fleetwood does and others say it doesn't, I'll have to jack it up and see. If it doesn't have the dual bolt pattern I may just get a remanufactured 350 Olds or find a good running 70's Olds with a 350 for cheap, if it does have the chevy/bop bellhousing I'll take a trip to the junkyard and try to get all the parts I need for the conversion. I just dont want to tie the car up for more than a couple of days to do the swap. If I am able to use the Chevy motor without changing the trans or getting an adapter I'll be more the happy to sell ya all the accessory brackets and stuff for dirt cheap. ;)
 

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Destroyer said:
I just dont want to tie the car up for more than a couple of days to do the swap.
HAHA!! Sorry dude, I hate to laugh, but I'm sure people on here will back me up when I say that there's no way it'll be swapped in a couple of days. Especially if you're trying to do it on the cheap. Currently I'm in the middle of my swap. I alotted myself a couple of days. At first, I thought for sure i'd have the sucker at least running, if not tuned by day two. Well. First it took over a day to get the old 4100 out and in the driveway. Then delooming the wiring to figure out whats needed and what isn't, sourcing new bolts to replace what was too rusty to reuse took time. Then in the middle of things one of my 18 year old brake lines decided to take a poo when i accidentally bumped it. I'm also completely stumped as to how to unbolt the friggin 4100 motor mounts. Both my friend and I cannot for the life of us figure out how to get a wrench or socket on 2 of the 3 bolts that are inside of the engine cradle. Right now, I'm hoping she'll be running by January. Between my full time job and other commitments, I just don't have the time or energy to throw my full effort into it.

But, as for your dual bolt pattern bellhousing, I can't say if it is or isn't. However, there is a relatively cheap solution. For $51.95 from Summit Racing, they sell an adapter that will bolt any BOP tranny to a chevy engine. Its made by TCI Automotive, and the part number is TCI-230000. Here's a link to it. http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=search.asp&type=bykeyword&searchtype=both&part=bellhousing+adapter

-Don
 
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Mogul345 said:
HAHA!! Sorry dude, I hate to laugh, but I'm sure people on here will back me up when I say that there's no way it'll be swapped in a couple of days. Especially if you're trying to do it on the cheap. Currently I'm in the middle of my swap. I alotted myself a couple of days. At first, I thought for sure i'd have the sucker at least running, if not tuned by day two. Well. First it took over a day to get the old 4100 out and in the driveway. Then delooming the wiring to figure out whats needed and what isn't, sourcing new bolts to replace what was too rusty to reuse took time. Then in the middle of things one of my 18 year old brake lines decided to take a poo when i accidentally bumped it. I'm also completely stumped as to how to unbolt the friggin 4100 motor mounts. Both my friend and I cannot for the life of us figure out how to get a wrench or socket on 2 of the 3 bolts that are inside of the engine cradle. Right now, I'm hoping she'll be running by January. Between my full time job and other commitments, I just don't have the time or energy to throw my full effort into it.

But, as for your dual bolt pattern bellhousing, I can't say if it is or isn't. However, there is a relatively cheap solution. For $51.95 from Summit Racing, they sell an adapter that will bolt any BOP tranny to a chevy engine. Its made by TCI Automotive, and the part number is TCI-230000. Here's a link to it. http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=search.asp&type=bykeyword&searchtype=both&part=bellhousing+adapter

-Don
Assuming I had all the parts I'm fairly confident I can do it in a weekend. 3 years ago I installed a 350 Chevy in my 84 Cutlass that had a V6, only took 3 days to get it driving. Installed a .30 over 455 in place of the stock 330 in my 67 Cutlass and was running that same day, that included a swap to a TH400 trans too. Years ago I had a built 5.0 Stang, decided to trade it in and sold the motor to a buddy of mine in exchange for the motor in his 90 Stang. Swapped both motors in both cars and both cars were running in 8 hours.
 

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Destroyer said:
Assuming I had all the parts I'm fairly confident I can do it in a weekend. 3 years ago I installed a 350 Chevy in my 84 Cutlass that had a V6, only took 3 days to get it driving. Installed a .30 over 455 in place of the stock 330 in my 67 Cutlass and was running that same day, that included a swap to a TH400 trans too. Years ago I had a built 5.0 Stang, decided to trade it in and sold the motor to a buddy of mine in exchange for the motor in his 90 Stang. Swapped both motors in both cars and both cars were running in 8 hours.
Well, with that many motor swaps, I guess it'd be possible. I'm just finding that Caddy parts are a pain in the patoot to source. I mean, who would've thought that GM would make use a tranny and motor mount for the Olds 307 specifically for the Fleetwood Brougham? I mean I couldn't find a single other tranny or motor mount for any other GM fullsize car that Autozone and Advance didn't carry. Yet niether has any sort of mount for the 86-89. And the radiator is different too. Bigger than the standard GM full sized car's radiator. And the gas tank is the same as the full sized cars, but the filler neck is different...etc etc..

I wish you luck man. And if you do end up swapping in a Chevy motor, I'll buy your Olds motor mounts off you as soon as you pull it. GM doesn't make the part of the mount that bolts to the block anymore, and junkyards are telling me they don't even bother with motor mounts.

-Don
 
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Mogul345 said:
Well, with that many motor swaps, I guess it'd be possible. I'm just finding that Caddy parts are a pain in the patoot to source. I mean, who would've thought that GM would make use a tranny and motor mount for the Olds 307 specifically for the Fleetwood Brougham? I mean I couldn't find a single other tranny or motor mount for any other GM fullsize car that Autozone and Advance didn't carry. Yet niether has any sort of mount for the 86-89. And the radiator is different too. Bigger than the standard GM full sized car's radiator. And the gas tank is the same as the full sized cars, but the filler neck is different...etc etc..

I wish you luck man. And if you do end up swapping in a Chevy motor, I'll buy your Olds motor mounts off you as soon as you pull it. GM doesn't make the part of the mount that bolts to the block anymore, and junkyards are telling me they don't even bother with motor mounts.

-Don
Wow, I didnt realize there would be any such probs looking for Caddy 307 parts. There were a few years where the Caprice station wagons came equipped with 307 Olds motors, early 80's I believe. Might wanna try getting parts for those or Buick Lesabres, or obviously an 80's Olds 88/98.
 

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Mogul, all I went to the dealer for, were the motor mount brackets to put the 350 olds motor in. I told the guy i wanted the brackets for a 1989 fleetwood brougham with a 307 motor. I think all four brackets might of cost me 50.00 bucks tops. I reused the 4.1 motor mounts, I just moved them foward to the other set of holes that were there. any other nicks and nacks i got from the local auto parts store, like radiator hoses and p/s hoses.

If you want E-mail me I'll give yiu my cell number and i'll go over any questions you have
 

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I've got 15 or so motor swaps under my belt, some done in less than 24 hours.
But back then I had a nice set up, Garage, every tool ever made, and so on. That was back in Canada! it was lots of fun!

Well now I just got finished in October a motor swap, that I had started on in July. Everything that could go wrong did, plus it was outside in the back yard ( mud ) in the rain, bugs, wet cold, and at times burning hot sun on my head. NC summer is brutal for a CANADIAN.

It was the worst thing I ever did. next time I will use or rent a friends Garage and do it all in one weekend instead of working on it on weekends and at night after work.

Advice: do it inside, get parts in advance, bring lots of smokes and beer, and leave wife at home. ( no I don't have time to take you to Wall-mart Honey! ):banghead:
 

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If you want power, make it easy on yourself..... Get rid of the parts and ideas you have now... Go to a wrecking yard and get an olds 403..... Its a direct swap for the 307 you have now. Put a small cam, new timing chain, oil pump and gaskets, and use a low rise aftermarket intake like an Edlebrock. rebuild and use the carb, dist and exhaust manafolds the 403 comes with, bolt all your brackets, etc right back on it.... Same motor, same size, same weight as 307 and will bolt up to the 200 trans, for as long as it lasts. You will have a mid 300HP engine, with over 400ft lbs... Much more than a highly modified 5.7 IROC engine, and tons less headaches, and the olds 403 is 10times the motor a chevy is, less an LT5. Probably would cost you less than a grand too, if you did all the work yourself.... You might even break even by selling that TPI motor. Best thing is, your car would look stock and it would be correct for the car, and it would actually run good, unlike that IROC engine in that car.




Destroyer said:
I bought my 87 Fleetwood about 2 months ago and think its a great family car but it needs more power. The car is virtually showroom new even with 85k miles, the ex owner (75 yr old neighbor) kept it in the garage from day 1. Its got the 307 Olds motor that runs perfect but IMO has way too little power for this big car. I have a 350 Iroc motor from an 87 Iroc in my garage w/only 6k miles on a complete rebuilt. I would like to install this motor in the Fleetwood but am concerned that by the time I'm done with the swap and buy all the parts needed it would end up being costly. Does the Fleetwood share the same chassis as a Chevy Caprice?. If so, I could probably find all the accessories and mounts, etc.. from a Caprice at the junkyard. I am also debating buying a remanufactured Olds 350. The Chevy motor has 235 hp and 300 (or more) ft/lbs torque so I think it should move the Caddy fairly well, I'm not sure what a mid 70's 350 Olds motor is pushing but I assume its around 160 or so hp.

Would I be able to use the A/C compressor from the 307 on the Chevy motor or will I have to replace the compressor? I know I'd have to modify the lines from the A/C being that the compressors are mounted on opposite sides between Chevy and Olds. What other probs would I have?. Basically I just want to know if it would be costlier to install my 350 Chevy or just buy a 350 Olds for the car. I assume the 350 Olds would be a direct bolt in but I'd have to get a different intake. Any help/comments would be appreciated.
 
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Ultra Slow said:
If you want power, make it easy on yourself..... Get rid of the parts and ideas you have now... Go to a wrecking yard and get an olds 403..... Its a direct swap for the 307 you have now. Put a small cam, new timing chain, oil pump and gaskets, and use a low rise aftermarket intake like an Edlebrock. rebuild and use the carb, dist and exhaust manafolds the 403 comes with, bolt all your brackets, etc right back on it.... Same motor, same size, same weight as 307 and will bolt up to the 200 trans, for as long as it lasts. You will have a mid 300HP engine, with over 400ft lbs... Much more than a highly modified 5.7 IROC engine, and tons less headaches, and the olds 403 is 10times the motor a chevy is, less an LT5. Probably would cost you less than a grand too, if you did all the work yourself.... You might even break even by selling that TPI motor. Best thing is, your car would look stock and it would be correct for the car, and it would actually run good, unlike that IROC engine in that car.
I had a 403 in a 79 T/A awhile ago. It was embarasing to say the least. Guzzled gas like a top fueler but was slow. I have heard that it was one of the most underated motors of all time and can be a monster. With its bore and stroke it can potentially be a screamer but it takes some money. Funny thing about the Iroc motor is that it actually ran the same times as my LT1 motor in my current Camaro. The Iroc motor with some nice heads and a cam should be pushing well over 300hp and about 400lb/torque. The only real prob I have with the 403 is the weak bottom end in stock configuration.
 

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Sounds like you got your mind made up on that...... But before you start, read this first and do a little more checking before you take on this task....... Its going to be a tough project to go the route you want and I am afraid your performace expectations are going to come up pretty short for the efforts you are about to undertake...

Lets hope your trans is one of the unibell transmissions too as you are going to have to change that to bolt in the chevy, on top of everything else under the hood and fuel tank too.

I love TPI motors... Check my site below.... I have 5 cars right now with TPI motors. In fact I really love the TPI engine. I own a TPI car that has gone 197MPH... It just has a couple of turbos on it to do it.

My Site with a few cars....

The TPI is a good motor, but not meant for a fleetwood brougham in relplacment of an olds as its simply too much work for the return and the car will lose so much integrity do to the massive recofiguration..... Not to mention its what I call "BEV" Beyond economic value... This is something you learn when you have moded more cars in your life than you care to remember. If you had a 90-92 Cad, I would say its a great option, as the 90-92s were SB cars, not oldsmobiles as your is.

Really, if you hate the 403 for your own reasons and you are willing to do that much work to change everything over...... put a big block chevy, olds 455 or the best thing you can, a cad-500 in it. A small block really has no business in a car the size of a fleetwood if performance is your goal.... That is what you were mentioning so that is what I am basing this on.

The Olds 403 is pretty good and I would resonsider if you are really going to do this.. Its easy and its as close to going to a big block as you can get for as little work and money as possible on that car. Its not my debut on this either as I have done just what I am telling you with good results on several 86-89 Fleetwoods. The cars ran very well, and I would put this one particilar 403 Fleetwood with cam/intake/gears up against any simi stock TPI corvette/IROC/TA side by side at least till 120MPH.

The 403 is a direct replacment in your car, far from a chevy in that car. I also had a 79 TA.... Several as a matter of fact, but lets just stick to this beater.... It was the single car I put more miles on than any other car to date. 403/Comp Cam/Edlebrock Dual Plane/Q-Jet/3:23 Gears..... I ran this from new. A mid 13 car all day and the car is still on the road restored to a fair condition today. I did the mods at 30,000 miles when I bought it in late 79 or 80. I drove the crap out of this car and raced it all the time. I sold it in 86 or so with over 250K to a friend that passed it on to his son.... When I had it, the valve covers never came off after I put the cam in it. Never touched a thing and there were points the car went at least 15,000 miles before I even changed the oil.. Not mobil 1 either. I cant say enough about that motor, and mine is not the only story like this on this engine. I can assure you the TPI motor does not do this. As far as the bottom end being weak on a 403????? I dont know who told you that... You should see the size of the crank/rods and journals compared to the very engine you are talking about. Its not a 9000RPM engine, but its a 6200RPM engine for 250,000 miles in a 3800LB mid 13 car.... I'd say its pretty good.

A TPI Engine..... Not for a Fleetwood though....






Destroyer said:
I had a 403 in a 79 T/A awhile ago. It was embarasing to say the least. Guzzled gas like a top fueler but was slow. I have heard that it was one of the most underated motors of all time and can be a monster. With its bore and stroke it can potentially be a screamer but it takes some money. Funny thing about the Iroc motor is that it actually ran the same times as my LT1 motor in my current Camaro. The Iroc motor with some nice heads and a cam should be pushing well over 300hp and about 400lb/torque. The only real prob I have with the 403 is the weak bottom end in stock configuration.
My Site....
 

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Ultra Slow said:
If you want power, make it easy on yourself..... Get rid of the parts and ideas you have now... Go to a wrecking yard and get an olds 403..... Its a direct swap for the 307 you have now. Put a small cam, new timing chain, oil pump and gaskets, and use a low rise aftermarket intake like an Edlebrock. rebuild and use the carb, dist and exhaust manafolds the 403 comes with, bolt all your brackets, etc right back on it.... Same motor, same size, same weight as 307 and will bolt up to the 200 trans, for as long as it lasts. You will have a mid 300HP engine, with over 400ft lbs... Much more than a highly modified 5.7 IROC engine, and tons less headaches, and the olds 403 is 10times the motor a chevy is, less an LT5. Probably would cost you less than a grand too, if you did all the work yourself.... You might even break even by selling that TPI motor. Best thing is, your car would look stock and it would be correct for the car, and it would actually run good, unlike that IROC engine in that car.
really? are those numbers correct?

wow, maybe my plan fo rthe engine swap in a late 80's Brougham is not gone... as the 500 is just very costly right now....

....is there an aftermarket for the 403? does the Olds 455 also bolt right in?
 
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