On GM Insider news, they say that GM has green-lighted a new DTS-replacement for 2012, with an Epsilon FWD setup! People are going crazy against GM,WITHOUT EVEN SEEING IT YET! They say that being FWD, makes it a useless piece of junk, that can't compete with any of the import brands that are RWD or AWD. They speak of the Northstar engine and system, as being under-powered, out-dated, over-the hill-technology. There are also many insults to the DTS' customer base as being bent-over Octogenarians or Limo-drivers that are all about 70 years old! The stereotypes against the DTS and its owners are really unbelievable most of the time! How do you fellow DTS-owners feel about our current Northstar System,your suspension/handling balance, and the use of FWD as opposed to RWD or AWD? Do you feel that the MAIN quality of a luxury Sedan should be its 0-60 times and its handling around curves as opposed to smoothness/compliance? It will be very interesting to see what DTS-Owners feel about our choice of cars, when we COULD have bought another Domestic or Import!
Do you like the new DT7 Epsilon platform OK?
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I like the front wheel drive platform for a large luxury car. My 2 DTS's handle great, drive great in all kinds of weather. I got my first front wheel drive Deville when I was 39 years old...so they can screw the 70's age thing!
0-60 times are not important on the flagship car. You don't see Mercedes or BMW quoting 0-60 either. I want comfort, luxury, great handling, good suspension and gas mileage.
If I want to go fast...I'll drive my Z06!
0-60 times are not important on the flagship car. You don't see Mercedes or BMW quoting 0-60 either. I want comfort, luxury, great handling, good suspension and gas mileage.
If I want to go fast...I'll drive my Z06!
I'll bet the critics of the DTS/FWD are readers of Road & Track who like to play Grand Prix driver. I came out of a 300C/RWD into my DTS. MAYBE the 300C would be a better vehicle doing slalom driving, and it would out accelerate the DTS. But it was a no-mover in any kind of slick condition and felt no where near as stable at speed with anything but dry pavement. The DTS feels planted, even on icy roads. And though it's just a tad slower, I've surprised more than one driver with its ability to scoot. The engine is plenty powerful, very responsive, and has a sweet sound. Wouldn't mind a 5 or 6 speed transmission though. As for competition with AWD vehicles, AWD is overkill, especially when you have traction and stability control systems with FWD. Call it a gimmick, especially for this type of vehicle.
Cadillac has the CTS and the V-series for the Grand Prix crowd. I want space, comfort, security and a bit of performance too. That's what the DTS is about.
Cadillac has the CTS and the V-series for the Grand Prix crowd. I want space, comfort, security and a bit of performance too. That's what the DTS is about.
I expect more technical prowess on the flagship.
I have no problem with FWD, tho I would rather RWD. FWD has a restricted turning circle and probable increased maintenance with so much weight on the front end. I don't need the increased traction in the snow but would bow tothose who need it.
In the end I don't care that much.
However.
I bought this DTS because it fit me.
I knew it was at the end of it's life (One way or the other....) and the replacement should be a step forward.
Random thoughts.......
I would EXPECT a 6 speed transmission. The one in the CTS is world class. That helps in all kinds of performance situations.
I would EXPECT a more integrated iPod/MP3 solution.
I would be pleasantly surprised to see a Levinson Stereo "available". No more cheapy BOSE (Bose is OK for Standard Stereo), but a real High Q Stereo.
I would EXPECT better color choices. Not more. Just better. There's a thread around here somewhere about the paint jobs.
I would EXPECT less road noise.
I would EXPECT the new GM WunderDiesel to be "available".
I would expect Heated/Cooled seats.
I would expect Real Time Traffic to be available. With or without NAV.
I would Expect Voice control to be integrated into all the electronics.
I would expect Keyless Entry to be available.
I would expect the current FOB/locks to be programmable to 1 click opens all doors like my 1954 Crosley did. (Only a little exaggeration.)
I would expect to have a manual control of the headlights so they didn't come on EVERY DAY, EVERY TIME in the DAYTIME when I start my car in the garage.
I would expect power trunk closer to be available.
I would expect mood lighting. The CTS has Killer "accent lighting".
I would expect the new (was) Silent Glass to be used.
I would EXPECT the mag ride to be available across the line.
I like the N*. More reliability and sophistication is always a good thing but GM may HAVE to go to a V6 to get the EPA mileage.......
For less than 60, I would buy that car.
I have no problem with FWD, tho I would rather RWD. FWD has a restricted turning circle and probable increased maintenance with so much weight on the front end. I don't need the increased traction in the snow but would bow tothose who need it.
In the end I don't care that much.
However.
I bought this DTS because it fit me.
I knew it was at the end of it's life (One way or the other....) and the replacement should be a step forward.
Random thoughts.......
I would EXPECT a 6 speed transmission. The one in the CTS is world class. That helps in all kinds of performance situations.
I would EXPECT a more integrated iPod/MP3 solution.
I would be pleasantly surprised to see a Levinson Stereo "available". No more cheapy BOSE (Bose is OK for Standard Stereo), but a real High Q Stereo.
I would EXPECT better color choices. Not more. Just better. There's a thread around here somewhere about the paint jobs.
I would EXPECT less road noise.
I would EXPECT the new GM WunderDiesel to be "available".
I would expect Heated/Cooled seats.
I would expect Real Time Traffic to be available. With or without NAV.
I would Expect Voice control to be integrated into all the electronics.
I would expect Keyless Entry to be available.
I would expect the current FOB/locks to be programmable to 1 click opens all doors like my 1954 Crosley did. (Only a little exaggeration.)
I would expect to have a manual control of the headlights so they didn't come on EVERY DAY, EVERY TIME in the DAYTIME when I start my car in the garage.
I would expect power trunk closer to be available.
I would expect mood lighting. The CTS has Killer "accent lighting".
I would expect the new (was) Silent Glass to be used.
I would EXPECT the mag ride to be available across the line.
I like the N*. More reliability and sophistication is always a good thing but GM may HAVE to go to a V6 to get the EPA mileage.......
For less than 60, I would buy that car.
Here is the starting point - 2010 LaCrosse on the Epsilon II FWD / AWD platform:
http://www.buick.com/pages/mds/vehicles/futurelanding.do
This is the same strategy Ford is following with the Taurus / MKS.
http://www.buick.com/pages/mds/vehicles/futurelanding.do
This is the same strategy Ford is following with the Taurus / MKS.
I adore my mocha brown Caddy and I am only 31. This is the best car I have every driven and owned. I can say that having had many company cars. As perverse as this is going to sound I like the stereotype a bit, though. I get lots of stares and definitely suck up a bit of the stereotype that only old, rich geezers should be driving them, particularly when last weekend I passed 10 cars stuck behind a heavy transport. None kept up! My friends come over just to look and I am thinking of opening a "give me a ride" business. I do enjoy a certain attitude people have about Caddies - a milestone of accomplishment.
So long story short - I am sure there is some kind of financial reason to paint a sweet ride like this with a bad brush of "out with the old in with a new". Then when the crappy new comes in, the old will be the new style...
So long story short - I am sure there is some kind of financial reason to paint a sweet ride like this with a bad brush of "out with the old in with a new". Then when the crappy new comes in, the old will be the new style...
I really love the Northstar system and Engine! I think Stabilitrak and the Magnetic Ride Control gives excellent handling, and you would be surprised how poorly some of the Imports handle and shift on the curves! Do you feel a power-shortage when you drive in your daily situations? Do you feel that you need a 6-speed transmission? To me, a 7.0-second 0-60 time is excellent! The big Mercedes/Lexus/BMW's cost $20,000-$40,000 more, and on most roads they don't have much of an advantage in real-world driving. For those who have owned the import models that are in the same size category, how do you compare the DTS to them?
A BMW 7 series will kill a DTS in any performance competition. Don't start a discussion of 0-60 times. The Big guys will embarrass you. An Audi A8 maybe even more so.
A Lexus 460 just destroys a DTS.
It will run off and leave it.
It has 380 HP! And yes, it will out corner a DTS. shifting? You don't feel it.
And of course you get a lot of tech for your money.
The DTS doesn't even have heated or cooled seats. For goodness sake, it doesn't even have Bluetooth! (Most DTS drivers don't even know what Bluetooth is)
What the DTS does is offer VALUE in the lower level luxury cars.
Want to spend <>45K-55K? Have I got a deal for you.
But don't ever think you can run with the big dogs.
The DTS is good because it fills a niche,not because it is competitive with the top luxury cars. Its not.
What it is, is a fairly inexpensive alternative to a full luxury car.
It saves you <> $25000 or more, and delivers 90% (Or so) of the luxury of an LS460 or BMW 745.
Not a bad deal, but most certainly not competitive with those two, in a corner or not.
I have never driven a Big Merc so can't comment.
I also have not owned a BMW 7 or the Lexus. If I had I wouldn't be down to a DTS (Unless my fortunes had taken a turn for the worse!) But I have driven examples of both.
I test Drove a 2007 LS460 Oct of 2007 for an hour or so. (Maybe the best all around car in the world)
And I drove the BMW 745 just a week or so later. (I preferred the 5 series in the BMW)
I ended up buying a 2008 CTS ( Cost was right about $45000 - it was loaded with every option except AWD.) because I Thought it was competitive on performance and technology, but of course woefully lacking on luxury.... Big mistake on my part.
Believe me, the CTS can run off and hide from a DTS. And it has more technology than the DTS ever dreamed of.
So why do I drive a DTS?
The ride. The Seats. And the price.
The 6 speed transmission would allow even more performance from the northstar. You could put lower gears in for even better acceleration throughout the RPM range and higher gears in for economy. That's why everybody else does it too. Thats why Lexus has a 4400 pound car that can go 0-60 in 6 seconds and yet get 29 MPG on the highway! BTW, The Lexus uses an EIGHT speed transmission. Standard.
A Lexus 460 just destroys a DTS.
It will run off and leave it.
It has 380 HP! And yes, it will out corner a DTS. shifting? You don't feel it.
And of course you get a lot of tech for your money.
The DTS doesn't even have heated or cooled seats. For goodness sake, it doesn't even have Bluetooth! (Most DTS drivers don't even know what Bluetooth is)
What the DTS does is offer VALUE in the lower level luxury cars.
Want to spend <>45K-55K? Have I got a deal for you.
But don't ever think you can run with the big dogs.
The DTS is good because it fills a niche,not because it is competitive with the top luxury cars. Its not.
What it is, is a fairly inexpensive alternative to a full luxury car.
It saves you <> $25000 or more, and delivers 90% (Or so) of the luxury of an LS460 or BMW 745.
Not a bad deal, but most certainly not competitive with those two, in a corner or not.
I have never driven a Big Merc so can't comment.
I also have not owned a BMW 7 or the Lexus. If I had I wouldn't be down to a DTS (Unless my fortunes had taken a turn for the worse!) But I have driven examples of both.
I test Drove a 2007 LS460 Oct of 2007 for an hour or so. (Maybe the best all around car in the world)
And I drove the BMW 745 just a week or so later. (I preferred the 5 series in the BMW)
I ended up buying a 2008 CTS ( Cost was right about $45000 - it was loaded with every option except AWD.) because I Thought it was competitive on performance and technology, but of course woefully lacking on luxury.... Big mistake on my part.
Believe me, the CTS can run off and hide from a DTS. And it has more technology than the DTS ever dreamed of.
So why do I drive a DTS?
The ride. The Seats. And the price.
The 6 speed transmission would allow even more performance from the northstar. You could put lower gears in for even better acceleration throughout the RPM range and higher gears in for economy. That's why everybody else does it too. Thats why Lexus has a 4400 pound car that can go 0-60 in 6 seconds and yet get 29 MPG on the highway! BTW, The Lexus uses an EIGHT speed transmission. Standard.
Those cars do offer 380 H.P. or so, and should, considering the extra cost to buy them. So I wouldn't expect the DTS to be their equal in straight ahead acceleration, and they import brands seems to set their suspensions to favor handling, and the firmer ride quality (except Lexus LS 460) that comes from that setup I just wonder if the typical customers of these vehicles will regularly push their vehicle to a high enough R.P.M. level to get to 60 mph in 5-5.5 seconds to stay ahead of me? I think these customers of the foreign-makes aspire to the belief of superior perfromance/build quality/PRESTIGE, more than actually using the power and handling that these brands afford! Many people use these vehicles as a mobile Designer-label, like Gucci or Rolex, as to a lesser extent some of the more expensive Domestic brands such as Escalade or Lincoln. McCainSome import owners that I know who paid $50,000-$80,000 for their cars,know very little about their horsepower/Trans/battery placement locations/operation of common features on their vehicles! A DTS-sized BMW or Mercedes, is gonna be $20,000 more, and for the same price, I would have to buy a 3-series! This is no advantage or superiority to me. The CTS is as big as a 5-series BMW, so it comes down to determining whether the Car magazines belief that 0-60 times and the whoopee factor going around curves as the parameters for judging LUXURY sedans and Coupes rather than coddling, smoothness, and isolation! I'll bet you 50% of the import drivers have never driven their car to 4,000-5,000 RPM for more than a few seconds when merging onto the freeway or jumping into a gap in traffic! If I want to carve a corner, I would buy a Vette or some other true sports car. If flying around curves was paramount, I would prefer a car with a stiff suspension;that just doesn't happen to be MY preference. I don't let anyone tell me what type of car I should drive; not Obama,McCain,Corker,Pelosi,Waxman,or any tree-huggers from California! Some people haul a boat,transport their teams , or do construction. They have needs and tastes, and I have to decide what features and capabilities cater to my needs in my price arena.
FYI, The DTS (mine is a 2006 Model) HAS heated and cooled front Seats, and Heated rear seats! Get your facts straight now, Good Buddy! At least give the Caddy the credit it deserves. Motor trend Magazine did a Luxury Car Comparo between the "PRESTIGE" brands, 2009 Jaguar XF,2009 Lexus GS460,BMW 550i, and E550 Mercedes, all coasting $60,000+--$70,000+! These are all direct-quotes from Motor Trend! The Lexus' 8-speed trans was said to "break-off seamless shifts at anything but breakneck speeds. But when it's time to break necks, it can't keep up, endlessly hunting for the right gear and delivering lethargic shifts when in Manual mode"! It also said the variable-ratio steering and anti-roll bars "numb the steering more than we would like". The 550i was said to be "splendid over smooth surfaces, but over rough roads, dial up the Dentist." "As soon as the asphalt cracks up, it's hammer time-way too stiff for comfortable motoring-even if you are in attack mode". "In addition to its intolerable ride over patch pavement,the 550i disappoints with fatigue-inducing seats,a still frustrating and unintuitive iDrive,a cold and dark cockpit, and a monster engine that somehow doesn't feel that monsterlike out on the road. Throw in a price tag that approaches 70 large, and the BMW is deemed best left in the cellar". The E550 'Benz is said to have a "trans that is ready to shift ,whether in first or seventh gear. The only minor fault with the trans is according to St. Antoine, "when charging and you click the upshift paddle, the trans waits to execute the command until the engine reaches redline". Of the four cars, the E550 "posts the longest braking distance, the feeblest lateral acceleration,and the slowest figure-eight time,specs that contradict the aura of our tester's optional AMG Sport package". The Jag XF had the shortest stopping distance,best lateral acceleration, and the fastest figure-eight times. It even had a higher JD Power Quality ranking than these other "Prestige Driver's Cars"! These quotes were taken word-for-word from the recent Motor trend article called:"Private Reserve Cabs:Luxury Sports Sedan Comparison. these are 2009 models, so save all of the BS and hoopla about how great all of these fantastic,Super-handling,RWD,high-powered, Super imports are! Motor Trend definitely doesn't favor American Cars over these nameplates, and the vast majority of the American public raves over these cars that are supposed to have it ALL OVER American nameplates! Read it for yourselves, these Magazines are respected all over the world as one of the best publications on cars, and it wasn't an American nameplate in the bunch!
There will be valid arguments on both sides of this issue. My personal opinion is Cadillac should be rear drive. My reasoning is simple. GM claims (for what that's worth) that Cadillac is aiming towards BMW and Mercedes as their competition. I think this shows in their recent efforts with the CTS. If this is true, then they need to be better than the cars they are trying to beat. Both BMW and Mercedes are RWD/AWD.
Further, GM claims that Buick is targeting Acura, Audi (somewhat) and the overpriced toyota (lexus). Therefore any of those brands should be considered below Cadillac. Note that with only a couple exceptions, those three brands are all FWD/AWD as is Buick.
Of course there are other things to consider but this is a big difference.
Obviously whatever replaces the DTS/STS must move the car to the next level. Both the DTS and the STS have some great features. But as mentioned, why does a $60K DTS or a $65K STS not have things that a $50K CTS has? Ambient lighting, adaptive headlights, hard drive based Nav/MP3, these should ALL be available on the top line Caddy and more.
Further, GM claims that Buick is targeting Acura, Audi (somewhat) and the overpriced toyota (lexus). Therefore any of those brands should be considered below Cadillac. Note that with only a couple exceptions, those three brands are all FWD/AWD as is Buick.
Of course there are other things to consider but this is a big difference.
Obviously whatever replaces the DTS/STS must move the car to the next level. Both the DTS and the STS have some great features. But as mentioned, why does a $60K DTS or a $65K STS not have things that a $50K CTS has? Ambient lighting, adaptive headlights, hard drive based Nav/MP3, these should ALL be available on the top line Caddy and more.
Like DTSIKE...I too have a 2006 DTS. Mine is the Performance Sedan with the MAGRIDE suspension. I think his is, bit I am not sure.
Mine now has 60,000 miles of mostly fairly high speed interstate driving.
Mine DOES have HEATED AND A/C COOLED seats.
The DTS is a really great, long distance, highway cruiser...which is what I mostly use it for. It will run as far and as fast as any semi-sane person wants to run.
I have rode in and drove a couple of the newer BMW 550's.
Wasn't impressed at all.
I sure wasn't impressed with the ride. They rode like a wagon over rough roads. My DTS rides FAR BETTER over really rough roads. The MAGRIDE is great on really rough roads.
Straight line power of the BMW was ok..but then so is my DTS. I have ran 0 to 60 in 6.5 and it will run over 143 top end. I don't know HOW MUCH OVER...never had it wide open yet. :shhh:
The couple of big Mercs I have been in..wasn't over impressed with them either. The controls were weird and kinda confusing.
I have ran a few times with the BIG DOGS..as some call them.
The last time was last fall against an AMG SLK.
It is true that I couldn't pass him at will, but I wasn't beat too bad either. Especially when you consider that the AMG SLK probably costs TWICE what my DTS did.
That was on about 150 miles of twisty Interstate on I-70 from just East of Grand Junction Colorado to just west of Denver. We stopped for fuel at the same time just before Denver, and he was all over the DTS...wanting to know all about it. :thumbsup:
He was TOTALLY SHOCKED and VERY IMPRESSED, that I managed to keep up with him over a long distance. He said he had no idea that the newer Cadillacs would run and handle decently. :thumbsup:
Other people can run them down all they want to...
I LIKE MINE and wouldn't even THINK of trading it for a BMW of a MERC.
I MIGHT consider a LS460.
Texas Jim
Mine now has 60,000 miles of mostly fairly high speed interstate driving.
Mine DOES have HEATED AND A/C COOLED seats.
The DTS is a really great, long distance, highway cruiser...which is what I mostly use it for. It will run as far and as fast as any semi-sane person wants to run.
I have rode in and drove a couple of the newer BMW 550's.
Wasn't impressed at all.
I sure wasn't impressed with the ride. They rode like a wagon over rough roads. My DTS rides FAR BETTER over really rough roads. The MAGRIDE is great on really rough roads.
Straight line power of the BMW was ok..but then so is my DTS. I have ran 0 to 60 in 6.5 and it will run over 143 top end. I don't know HOW MUCH OVER...never had it wide open yet. :shhh:
The couple of big Mercs I have been in..wasn't over impressed with them either. The controls were weird and kinda confusing.
I have ran a few times with the BIG DOGS..as some call them.
The last time was last fall against an AMG SLK.
It is true that I couldn't pass him at will, but I wasn't beat too bad either. Especially when you consider that the AMG SLK probably costs TWICE what my DTS did.
That was on about 150 miles of twisty Interstate on I-70 from just East of Grand Junction Colorado to just west of Denver. We stopped for fuel at the same time just before Denver, and he was all over the DTS...wanting to know all about it. :thumbsup:
He was TOTALLY SHOCKED and VERY IMPRESSED, that I managed to keep up with him over a long distance. He said he had no idea that the newer Cadillacs would run and handle decently. :thumbsup:
Other people can run them down all they want to...
I LIKE MINE and wouldn't even THINK of trading it for a BMW of a MERC.
I MIGHT consider a LS460.
Texas Jim
I hope that my statements don't give the impression that I don't believe that there aren't some very fine luxury imports out there! I just feel that most of them are over-priced, and are taking advantage of their "reputations" with American consumers. If you want to pay $25,000 for a Rolex watch, and you feel it's worth it, more power to you! "If you can stand it, I can UNDERSTAND it!" I just don't feel that a Hyundai Genesis is equal to a DTS,and I don't feel that a Lexus ES350 is much more than a dressed-up Camry. A lot of this is marketing and advertising, and in many cases, the foreign car companies have done a better job of staying in-touch with their customer-base and in the media than the American car companies-on their own turf! Ten or 15 years ago, most people would have been happy with 250-300 H.P in a sports car,now you have mid-sized cars like Camry and Accord and Maxima having the same type of power in V-6's. If I keep my DTS at or near 4000 RPM for any length of time, I'd be going 80-100 MPH;I cruise at 70-80 MPH at a little over 2000 RPM! As far as reliability and durability is concerned, I see many more 10-15 year old domestics being used daily than I do Hondas,Toyotas, and BMW's!
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