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Discussion Starter #1
My 2006 STS has developed a battery drain that typically will deplete the battery overnight.
I traced the drain down to the Bose amplifier, and confirmed this by disconnecting the amplifiers harness, and the vehicle no longer drains overnight.
I suspect that one of two things may be a problem -

1. The radio has an internal short and is keeping the Amplifier active overnight.
2. One or all the RAP relays are stuck in some fasion and supplying power to the Amplifier.

Note -
When sitting, past 20 minutes teh RAP system does stop supplying power to the windows and sunroof and radio.
But the Amplifier looks to still be drawing power.

Could anyone tell me how I can disable the RAP ssytem or what relays are involved so I may check to see if they are faulty?
Thanks
 

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2002.5 F55 CORSA STS, 2014 Explorer XLT FWD
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You don't disable RAP - too many necessary functions involved. You troubleshoot and repair/replace the notorious Bose amplifier in question - and its power supply source. You're nowhere near the first with this problem and Bose.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
You don't disable RAP - too many necessary functions involved. You troubleshoot and repair/replace the notorious Bose amplifier in question - and its power supply source. You're nowhere near the first with this problem and Bose.
Thank you for the quick reply.
The amplifier had been replaced and I still have the same issue, so I am fairly certain the Amplifier is not the cause of the concern but rather the effect.
That reminds me, I have an extra Bose amp for sale to post...

I feel diabling RAP will let me isolate that as the cause, the other alternative is to Pony up a few hundred on a new Radio..
Thanks
 

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I'm surprised that RAP seems to work but something is keeping the network alive and talking.

Do you have a Tech 2? Could scan and make sure all modules (that you have) respond.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I'm surprised that RAP seems to work but something is keeping the network alive and talking.

Do you have a Tech 2? Could scan and make sure all modules (that you have) respond.
I do not have a Tech 2 or acess to one...certainly would be helpful...
I figure I can pull relays to trouble shoot just as fast or to isolate the concern.
Thanks
 

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Well, to amplify (too soon?) my point on the Tech 2, you may find a smattering of U codes across several modules. That would probably point you in a helpful direction. These are typically silent and will not illuminate the check engine light.

There are separate threads for this but the clone tools aren't that expensive (and by that I mean in the $200 range, but I think there are options even cheaper now).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Well, to amplify (too soon?) my point on the Tech 2, you may find a smattering of U codes across several modules. That would probably point you in a helpful direction. These are typically silent and will not illuminate the check engine light.

There are separate threads for this but the clone tools aren't that expensive (and by that I mean in the $200 range, but I think there are options even cheaper now).
Thank you again, The price is not to bad, but perhaps I can find someone who has a Tech 2 locally and can troublehoot this for around the same price.
My last resort and I would prefer not to... Is to place a simpe relay to cut the power off to the amplifier when the vehicle is off. This is essentially doing what a working RAP should do i guess...
 

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I'm not trying to spend your money but I never felt the need to get a Tech 2 until I got the STS. I think my 1SG has like 23 modules. Generic OBD-II scanner is woefully inadequate.

There are Bluetooth dongles that have phone apps that may do all the modules but I have never looked into these. Maybe someone else has. The other factory clone tool that could be cheaper is the GDS2 with Tech2Win. Good site is www.chinacardiags.com for that stuff (mine shipped on the fast boat) but like I said, there are other threads.

The other thing to think about this is even if you jury-rig up some kind of relay, you still have the original module that may be keeping the network awake and may still have to deal with further symptoms from that, until you find the actual issue. Recommend not solving it that way...

You can get, I think, redrawn circuit diagrams through BBB Industries for free if you create a free account. That's one source. Buying an electronic FSM is also highly recommended if you plan to work on the car yourself. eBay is a common source...

If you really think the nav unit is keeping it on, you could just pull the fuse for that and see if the amp shuts down after a little bit. Given the complexity, the pulling random fuses trick isn't the best approach on these cars (and all newer cars). Something like a Tech 2 and wiring diagrams is pretty much the way to attack this imo.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I'm not trying to spend your money but I never felt the need to get a Tech 2 until I got the STS. I think my 1SG has like 23 modules. Generic OBD-II scanner is woefully inadequate.

There are Bluetooth dongles that have phone apps that may do all the modules but I have never looked into these. Maybe someone else has. The other factory clone tool that could be cheaper is the GDS2 with Tech2Win. Good site is www.chinacardiags.com for that stuff (mine shipped on the fast boat) but like I said, there are other threads.

The other thing to think about this is even if you jury-rig up some kind of relay, you still have the original module that may be keeping the network awake and may still have to deal with further symptoms from that, until you find the actual issue. Recommend not solving it that way...

You can get, I think, redrawn circuit diagrams through BBB Industries for free if you create a free account. That's one source. Buying an electronic FSM is also highly recommended if you plan to work on the car yourself. eBay is a common source...

If you really think the nav unit is keeping it on, you could just pull the fuse for that and see if the amp shuts down after a little bit. Given the complexity, the pulling random fuses trick isn't the best approach on these cars (and all newer cars). Something like a Tech 2 and wiring diagrams is pretty much the way to attack this imo.
Appreciate the info...
The car is a third car for me, I dont know if its worth investing too much into it at this time.
Was hoping for a simplet way to diagnose.
 

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To diagnose the RAP you must understand how it works in a lot greater detail than, "It's a ten-minute timer using relays". The Owner's Manual level knowledge won't get a troubleshooter very far, unless it's operator error or a very simple fuse or relay issue.

As you've already discovered, replacing suspect parts blindly, (as in not using a meter to find the current draw, rather than breaking a circuit and assuming the fault has been isolated) gets expensive and wastes time. As a professional troubleshooter for forty years, I've watched techs embrace tunnel vision countless times to trace problems, trying to make the symptoms conform to the fault, rather then the other way around. The techs who keep an open mind and do their homework prior to starting the actual troubleshooting are the ones who get consistently good results in the least amount of time and effort.

Effective troubleshooting is not in the same league as educated guessing. Proper troubleshooting is like detective work, sorting through the clues that are hiding the truth. Educated guessing is especially fruitless when there is more than one fault. Properly diagnosed, the data you take while troubleshooting will nearly always lead straight to the problem. --This assumes you know where to look and what to look for. The RAP failure symptoms you describe appears to be caused by a separate circuit fault, preventing RAP from operating properly.

If a thorough visual inspection doesn't yield anything and you don't want to pay a knowledgeable person to isolate and repair the problem, do yourself a favor and obtain a factory service manual. It will explain the RAP circuit Theory of Operation and it's relationship with the other electrical circuits in great detail. Once you understand how a circuit is supposed to work, it makes isolating the problem a whole lot easier when it doesn't. After that, you'll need schematics (also in the FSM) and the proper troubleshooting tools, be it a multi-meter or a Tech 2. Tools are little match for knowledge and experience, but they're invaluable for some problems. I bought a Tech 2 to troubleshoot my cars, but it rarely was needed and became more of a novelty to play around with when I wanted to look at the status of various systems, sensors and switches. I eventually sold it for more than I paid.

Troubleshooting a problem like this in any detail remotely via the internet is almost pointless; there are too many variables to consider.

For $15 a day, you can access all the factory info for your vehicle here: RepairProcedures.com - Providing electronic service information for 1995 to current GM vehicles then cut and paste it into a Word doc for later use.

Good luck,

CC
 

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Discussion Starter #11
To diagnose the RAP you must understand how it works in a lot greater detail than, "It's a ten-minute timer using relays". The Owner's Manual level knowledge won't get a troubleshooter very far, unless it's operator error or a very simple fuse or relay issue.

As you've already discovered, replacing suspect parts blindly, (as in not using a meter to find the current draw, rather than breaking a circuit and assuming the fault has been isolated) gets expensive and wastes time. As a professional troubleshooter for forty years, I've watched techs embrace tunnel vision countless times to trace problems, trying to make the symptoms conform to the fault, rather then the other way around. The techs who keep an open mind and do their homework prior to starting the actual troubleshooting are the ones who get consistently good results in the least amount of time and effort.

Effective troubleshooting is not in the same league as educated guessing. Proper troubleshooting is like detective work, sorting through the clues that are hiding the truth. Educated guessing is especially fruitless when there is more than one fault. Properly diagnosed, the data you take while troubleshooting will nearly always lead straight to the problem. --This assumes you know where to look and what to look for. The RAP failure symptoms you describe appears to be caused by a separate circuit fault, preventing RAP from operating properly.

If a thorough visual inspection doesn't yield anything and you don't want to pay a knowledgeable person to isolate and repair the problem, do yourself a favor and obtain a factory service manual. It will explain the RAP circuit Theory of Operation and it's relationship with the other electrical circuits in great detail. Once you understand how a circuit is supposed to work, it makes isolating the problem a whole lot easier when it doesn't. After that, you'll need schematics (also in the FSM) and the proper troubleshooting tools, be it a multi-meter or a Tech 2. Tools are little match for knowledge and experience, but they're invaluable for some problems. I bought a Tech 2 to troubleshoot my cars, but it rarely was needed and became more of a novelty to play around with when I wanted to look at the status of various systems, sensors and switches. I eventually sold it for more than I paid.

Troubleshooting a problem like this in any detail remotely via the internet is almost pointless; there are too many variables to consider.

For $15 a day, you can access all the factory info for your vehicle here: RepairProcedures.com - Providing electronic service information for 1995 to current GM vehicles then cut and paste it into a Word doc for later use.

Good luck,

CC
Thank you for the reply back.
Although I did not mention it earlier, I did use a multitester to isolate the current draw among the 4 main body power points in all 4 corners of the vehicle. After discovering the amperage draw stoped from removing the power to the drivers rear power block, I then began to pull each fuse/relay independently until the drop happended again.
This led me to removing the amplifier fuse, thus isolating the exsesive draw from the amp.
Never the one to waste too much money at "throwing parts", I grabbed the exact same bose amp from a local yard for less than the cost of two subway sandwiches.
I swapped the amps out, and proceeded to teast full functionality of the amps with no concern...however, the drain did once again occour overnight thus leading me to beleive that the Rap is staying energized in some way, and bringing me to see if anyone knows where these paticular set of relays (specifically the one that energizes the radio may lay at.
Now - since the radio does power off after the 20 minute RAP time ends and I still have a current draw, that leads me to beleive that their is a secondary RAP relay in that group that sends power to the amplifier independantly.
The amplifiers current draw is the equivelant of the vehicle running with the radio powered off, so I assume that this is the dormant draw while the vehicle is in operation.

Your final word of spending 15 dollars for a diagram to find the circuit route may be the best choice, as my quick fix option option would be to place a relay that will break the power to the amplifier only when the vehicle is no longer running.

As far as the Tech2 goes, its a useful tool for anything body module controled, and thsi may be one of those things... but I will take it as far as my power probe will let me first prior to buying one. I am not the type to hold on to a vehicle if it starts to get buggy after many years - Working as a service writer at many dealerships has taught me to spot a money pit really fast.
Thanks again!
 

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I'm not saying it is your amp, and I'm also not trying to insult your knowledge or experience, but how certain are you that the replacement amp is good?
Provided, chances of it being bad are low(er), but I've seen "new" parts which were bad out of the box so nothing would surprise me.
 

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I'm not saying it is your amp, and I'm also not trying to insult your knowledge or experience, but how certain are you that the replacement amp is good?
Provided, chances of it being bad are low(er), but I've seen "new" parts which were bad out of the box so nothing would surprise me.
No worries... Whn the radio is on the headunit (bottom half) sends a ground to the amplifier that triggers the amplifier to turn on and play music. This is an isolated circuit in the Amp.
During RAP mode, the amplifier is powered on regardless of if the radio is on or not. This is because the amplifier has other uses in the car such as seat positioning andn other memory related features that are supported by the Amplifier, this is also an isolated circuit in the amp.
The isolation is the reason why some lose the music, but can still use the remote start and seat memory features, or vice versa.
With the vehicle is off and dormant (fully exited and locked the vehicle) , the headunit (bottiom half) is not grounding out the amplifiers music segement.
The other half of the amplifier is still receiving RAP power although all other RAP powered items are not (windows, sunroof, wipers, navigation, etc..).
The RAP as mentioned earlier has many diffrent relays for each segment.. some of these relays are built into the BCM and other modules that would be really hard to isolate without a Tech2 (that i dont have).
However some of the power runs through other relays in the multiple fuse boxes through the car and I am trying to determine which one it is without having to pull each and every one.
It is possible that a relay is stuck in a relay has become stuck in a closed position and still supplying that power to the amp.
This would be a very easy fix, having to replace a BCM or another module would be a bit more difficult financially....lol
I intend to work through the power adn fuse boxes this weekend to see if I can catch the "theif"...lol
I had hoped that soemone here would have pre-existing knowlege of those relay locations to save me some time....
Thanks
 

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There may be "someone here" on the forums in the past who had dealt with it but honestly the STS forums are not exactly frequented anymore, the STS-V forums even less.
Those electrical gremlins can be irritating. I had a G35 which had some crazy parasitic drain from somewhere in the Bose also, I never dealt with it and the car ended up being totaled (thank God), but I've personally seen the same type of issue.
I don't have much else to contribute, but good luck. Keep us updated.
 

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Tools are little match for knowledge and experience, but they're invaluable for some problems. I bought a Tech 2 to troubleshoot my cars, but it rarely was needed and became more of a novelty to play around with when I wanted to look at the status of various systems, sensors and switches. I eventually sold it for more than I paid.
I think scanning all modules for U (communications) codes could be invaluable at this point. It could yield nothing, something he already knows, or direct him to where you should look next. Doesn't have to be a Tech 2, just not familiar enough with the alternatives. Basically one scenario could go like this:
  • Several modules report unexpected power/network activity after power down signal, or something
  • Using the schematics you see what is the common element of those particular modules and that may point you directly to a single relay somewhere that could be stuck on, or something. Or perhaps they are all dependent upon a signal (or power/ground control) from another module that is not properly sending it and is faulty.
Without that module list you could still use schematics to check the entire power/ground path from the amp all the way back to the battery but that could be quite time consuming depending.

I have an electronic FSM so I could poke around and find some stuff, as well. Incidentally I'm also trying to help a friend isolate a drain in his 96 Roadmaster. It seems to be the crap replacement Autozone alternator he just installed (bad voltage regulator)...
 

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A Tech 2 is required to scan non-powertrain modules. OBD-compliant scanners aren't in the same league, which is why the "official" GM Tech 2's or MDI scan tools used by dealerships cost so much more. Tech 2's are great for intermittent faults too, because they can monitor and record bus/module activity while the engine is idling or the car is being driven - this is especially helpful for isolating intermittent transmission and suspension-related problems..

The amount of information that can be obtained with FSM-supported GM-compliant scan tools is staggering. (Even a module's date of manufacture.) That being said, this problem appears to be a power/ground circuit-related fault. Even though a Tech 2 would be useful to verify if any networked modules have comm errors, (caused by a power/ground fault) a multimeter and wiring diagram should be more than sufficient to isolate the source of the issue(s). Power faults will knock modules offline anyway, which can mask other issues.

Disconnecting a harness from a module and eliminating a power drain (ground fault) would appear to indicate the module it was connected to is bad, when in fact the module is completing a circuit path via the harness causing the root problem which resides elsewhere. Disconnecting a harness and eliminating a fault indicates one of the lines on the harness could be used to begin a troubleshooting path for a drain. Removing fuses accomplishes a similar result, only for a more generalized area of concern.

Good troubleshooters use data to eliminate potential causes and prove a component (or wire run) is bad prior to ordering parts or beginning repairs. "Trust but verify" saves time and money.

When the associated costs are coming out of your pocket, this mantra becomes especially important.

CCC
 

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Are there other typical symptoms that accompany a failed Bose amp that presents a parasitic draw? Asking for a friend ..........
 

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Thank you for the quick reply.
The amplifier had been replaced and I still have the same issue, so I am fairly certain the Amplifier is not the cause of the concern but rather the effect.
That reminds me, I have an extra Bose amp for sale to post...

I feel diabling RAP will let me isolate that as the cause, the other alternative is to Pony up a few hundred on a new Radio..
Thanks
What year STS is your BOSE amp out of? How much are you asking for it?
 
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