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diagnostic scan tool - folding top

6K views 22 replies 4 participants last post by  ccclarke 
#1 ·
Do any of you have experience with the Autel Maxisys line of tools? I want to know if it's capable of working with the folding top module on a 2004 XLR. I was able to read pretty much every other system except the folding top module. I want to know if its tool that's the problem before replacing a $700 module.

The scan tool has GM V10.30 so it's a couple years old.
 
#2 ·
Well, nobody was able to tell me if my scan tool worked with the folding top module so I tried a different scan tool which also didn't communicate. I then replaced the module. Both scan tools do communicate now, they just won't do the relearn. I can see live data and pretty much everything else. The new module fixed the non functioning trunk assist which is a plus. Once I removed the old module I could see how there was water damage which wasn't apparent before.
 
#8 ·
Without a re-learn capability, a scan tool isn't much good for completing a folding top repair, since that's the last step to take after replacing anything related to the system.

As far as the water damage goes, (very common problem for the XLR) have you cleaned the drain line for the trunk compartment? I had to install a second drain line in for the other side compartment since it was about half-full, (after sitting outside on the lot for a year) when I bought mine. Once you clear a plugged drain, you need to find the source of the leak, (usually near the top seal of the trunk) and deal with it. GM has a recommended fix.

CC
 
#7 · (Edited)
In the trunk there is a cylinder that looks to be apart of a lock. Does anyone know what it's function is? There is a piece that is broken that I'd need to fix. It's kinda like a tie rod end... There is a matching one on the other side. View attachment 578808
This appears to be part of a connecting rod for the Front Tonneau. Note the position sensor near the middle/left of the frame.

CC
 
#6 ·
I ordered the VXDiag with Tech2Win from amazon. I'll report back when I test it out. Apparently that can also reprogram.

I have the ms906 and that thing is impressive. It reads almost everything. There haven't been many instances where I've had to replace a module so I doubted the tool.
 
#9 · (Edited)
The drain line had already been removed. I read that this was an issue, however I haven’t seen what the recommended fix for it is. Once I fixed the top I was going to remove the module and use a hose to find the source of the leak. That might not be the smartest way of dealing with this but it’s the only way I can think of finding the leak. I still have to find a ball end for that rod.
 
#10 ·
There are several GM Technical Service Bulletins you can refer to for a leaking Folding Top:

1. TSB is 07-08-57-003 "Water Leak in Trunk when Parked on Hill/Incline" and affects 04-08 XLRs

I contacted the folks at Kent Automotive and they have the proper automotive shim stock available. They say the part number is often wrong, even in GM's leak repair procedures.

The correct part number is: P46475. Pictures are posted to show the location and length of the shims.
My POC at the time was:

Alicia Walker - Web Customer Care Rep
Lawson Products Inc.
Customer Contact Center
Phone # 1-866-837-9908 Ext 7334

2. TSB is 05-08-57-005A Dated 8-18-2006 and affects 2004-2007 XLRs
Condition: Water entry over the wheelhouse traced back to the joint between the rear compartment weather strip and quarter belt weather strip.

Correction: Separate the joints and lift each end 50-76mm (2-3 inches) enough to apply 3M Bedding and Glazing Compound so that it extends to both ends of the weather strip and will cause slight squeeze out when reinstalled. As you reinstall the weather strip, be sure the smaller weather strip is fully inserted into the opposite weather strip. Work the weather strips onto the flange and towards each other to ensure a tight joint when finished.

There's a line drawing of the long, U-shaped weather strip that follows the contours of the trunk perimeter lifted above the rear of the car.

Here's a link for the Bedding & Glazing Compound:

http://www.shop3m.com/62556252096.ht...W_3MAAD_GS-Tab Sold in 1 gallon quantities in tube form.


Kicking it up further, is the next section, detailing a known design deficiency:

Condition: Water entry over wheel house and traced back to quarter belt cup. The cup drain is not large enough to drain adequately and floods over the dry side of the sealing system, which allows water to enter the trunk.

Correction: The cup joint is located at the rear of the quarter belt seal and it looks like a trough. This area is where the roof panel lower weather strip contacts when the roof is closed. The area just forward (toward front of car) of this cup is the "wet area" and to better manage the water into this wet area, a strip of foam must be added into the rear roof panel lower weather strip where it contacts the cup. Cut a strip of adhesive backed foam Kent Adhesive - Back Shim Stock P/N P46475, 60mm x 15mm (2 1/4 in x 5/8 in). Clean the area of the roof panel lower weather strip where the foam will be added using de-natured alcohol before installing the foam strip to ensure adhesion. (--At this point it references two illustrations that words just can't describe adequately.) https://www.*******.com/forums/images/smilies/willy_nilly.gif

This fix was done to my car and needs to be replaced occasionally due to top movement that loosens the foam strip over time. --It's a good thing the foam strips come in 50' rolls! https://www.*******.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

And then, almost as an afterthought is this little bombshell that could seriously dent your pocketbook if you were cursed enough to have this happen: https://www.*******.com/forums/images/smilies/reddevil.gif

Condition: Water entry into rear tubs located behind the rear wheelhouses traced to the area behind the rear tail lights. https://www.*******.com/forums/images/smilies/pat.gif

Correction: There are a number of panels that are bonded together in this area. If entry is traced to this area, remove the rear tail lamp on the affected side to help gain access. Use Kent Seam Sealer, P/N P10200 to seal the affected joint. It refers to an illustration with an arrow at either side of the rear of the car (with the tail lamps removed) that point to the outside, lower edge of the surface where the tail lamp housings mate to the car's body.

And then, if you were wondering why you bought so much Kent Seam Sealer in the first place, this follows:

Condition: Water entry into the rear compartment. Water may be present on the sill of the lower rear compartment opening (near the latch). Water may be seen dripping from the rear compartment lid inner trim at the lower corners.

Correction: Seal the area of the rear compartment lid inner and outer panels at the outer most vertical seam (between arrows - either side). The seam is on the inside of the rear compartment lid. Then it refers to an illustration that points to the top/rear corners and lower rear corner of the trunk lid on each side.

And lastly, is included something ALL XLR owners should do:

Inspect the rear tub drains (This is incorrect since only the tub on the driver's side in my vehicle has a drain) to ensure they are clear of any obstructions. Inspect to be sure there is no loose material in the tub that could cover the drain on the inside of the tub. (--This really wouldn't matter if we didn't have to worry about water intrusion in the first place!)
 

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#11 ·
Thanks for the tsb. Still trying to get it to work. I was able to get a tech2 clone from amazon and start the learn sequence but it won't complete the cycle.

Trunk raises, middle partition moves up, top tries to pull back. It looks like its not unlocking up front and I can hear fluid squirting from up front.

What do you think? bad lock cylinder not building pressure?
 
#12 · (Edited)
First off, let's get our terminology in sync so I know exactly what you're describing and try to avoid leading you in the wrong direction. Troubleshooting any problem remotely is tough enough.

1: By "middle partition" do you mean the Front Tonneau?

2. Are you using a GM Factory Service Manual? -If not, a scan tool isn't much use without one. If so, memorize the Folding Top Raise/Lower sequence and major components. The key to fixing something when it doesn't work is a thorough knowledge of how it's supposed to work. A lot of owners invest in scan tools that are a poor substitute for system knowledge and end up very frustrated as a result. Scan tools are just . . . tools. Troubleshooting knowledge comes from books and experience acquired over time.

3. Your symptom elaboration is troubling. Think about it - Since you're asking if a hydraulic cylinder is not building pressure, this can be caused by three things- A bad hydraulic pump, a leaking seal in a lift cylinder, or a leak in a hydraulic line.

"What could possibly go wrong?" . . .

If the Rear Decklid and Front Tonneau are operating, a bad hydraulic pump assembly is unlikely, -but not impossible, since there's more than just the pump involved. The pump is directly connected to a manifold with solenoids that direct the flow of oil to the proper top lift cylinders when commanded by the Folding Top Control module. That leaves the two other possibilities - a leak within a closed system, which means. . . the hydraulic oil has to be going somewhere. This is bad. Real bad.

Before you do anything more, open the rear decklid manually, (don't run the hydraulic pump!) and inspect the hydraulic fluid level on the reservoir attached to the pump in the left side compartment. If the level is below the Min/Max lines on the reservoir, you can bet there's a leak somewhere.

4. If the Front Tonneau was moving to the fully raised position, (your scan tool will show the counts and you can verify they're within the correct operating window) the Front Header Latch operates next. This is located under the headliner just behind the rearview mirror. You can remove the plastic plug that allows access to the latch (when it's being opened manually) and watch the hex head bolt move when it's operating.

-If you don't know how to manually raise/lower the Folding Top, this is an ideal time to learn, and I highly recommend you do so.

5. If the latch isn't working or you hear/suspect a leak, it's very possible a hydraulic line has been compromised under the headliner or at the latching mechanism. I've seen them become pinched by the Folding Top's locking mechanism near the back of the top. In this case, you've got Big Trouble to deal with. Being soft and spongy, (the operative word here is spongy) the headliner will absorb hydraulic fluid - to a point. After that, the oil will obey the laws of gravity and usually head toward the rear of the headliner and run down the vinyl covers that obscure the Folding Top latches outboard of the headrests. The hydraulic oil can eat through these covers (no longer carried in stock) and create an even bigger problem.

6. I wouldn't operate the hydraulic system until you can verify your hydraulic fluid level is good. If it isn't, DO NOT operate the hydraulic pump until you identify and fix the source of the leak, or you'll only make a bad situation worse. This may require dropping the headliner and performing a visual inspection. If you do, ensure your seats, carpets, and anything else in the interior you don't want damaged are completely covered prior to detaching the headliner.

7. If an oil leak is suspected, use a good light source and do an exhaustive visual inspection for leaks.

I'll warn you up front, if there is an oil leak and you've been running the pump, it could be a very expensive repair. Headliners are not in stock either.

Inspect, report back and I'll help if I can.

CC
 
#13 ·
1) yes, front tonneau. Sits behind seats and has flaps.
2) working on it
3) I'll check position of front tonneau, but it looks to be fully raised.
4) I didn't look to see if it was turning.
5) I heard squirting from where the lock cylinder is located after the front tonneau fully raised. I put my finger up there and there is hydraulic fluid. Pump reservoir is still within proper fill level.
6) I put my hands and eyes on all other cylinders. No other leaks. Also only time I heard squirting was when the front lock cylinder was trying to open. The only other cylinders that haven't been moved are the ones that work the rear tonneau cover. (sits under trunk or in front of trunk)
 
#15 ·
Is the order of operation for you (up to step 4?):

1.The Front Tonneau opens
2.The Header Latch unlatches
3.The Rear Deck Lid raises -If the rear deck lid does not raise, inspect Step 1 & 2 position and status data.
4.The Folding Top retracts into the trunk – If step 4 does not complete, inspect the Folding Top Position sensor data.

You should still be able to manually retract the Folding Top unless the return solenoid isn't opening, creating a hydraulic lock or there's mechanical interference.

So . . You do or don't have a factory shop manual?
Are you recording the sensor counts and switch position data displayed on your Tech 2 clone?

Again, I wouldn't energize the pump until you find and repair the source of the leaking oil. (The oil is very expensive too.) If it's pooling up anywhere in the headliner, you need to remove the headliner and clean up the oil before you can repair the leak under there anyway.
 
#16 ·
I don’t have the manual just yet. Just parts of it. I am trying to get it to open so I can remove the headliner and get to the cylinder or line which is the leak.
I’ve gotten through step 3 in your list, not step 4. (Up to step 5 in the manual) The top won’t retract. The pump doesn’t stop. looks like it wants to pull the top back like in step 6 in the manual but can’t.
I did try to let it sit to get the pressure to relieve so I could move it manually. No go. I waited quites some time.
Is there another lock that’s supposed to open before getting to step 6 in the manual? I can’t see anything else blocking the top.
 
#18 ·
A relearn does nothing more than clear existing data and store the most current sensor counts in the FTC module memory for comparison later on while you operate the top. You can still run the top, (at least to step 4) and monitor the FTC module sensor data.

This is why I keep asking what kind of documentation you're using. The chapter in the factory service manual for the Folding Top is 291 pages long, and full of information you should be thoroughly familiar with before a Tech 2 can be interpreted properly. The pump continues to run because it's trying to drive the Folding Top to a nominal position count reference value, before it eventually times out and stops. You may have more than one problem, but the leak is the priority to prevent further damage, before the Folding Top Position Sensor can be properly evaluated. With the bypass valve opened, you shouldn't have an issue moving the top manually unless there's another problem. You should also visually inspect the position sensor to ensure it is physically secure and not loose since that throws the sensor count out to lunch. There was an old TSB showing how to epoxy the sensors in place, since they're only retained by one fastener and no keying pin, (kind of a lame design, but GM doesn't make money after the sale unless the product fails.) You should always have a pair of sensors on hand for repairs since they aren't terribly reliable in the first place.

When was the last time the top operated nominally?
 
#19 ·
A relearn does nothing more than clear existing data and store the most current sensor counts in the FTC module memory for comparison later on while you operate the top. You can still run the top, (at least to step 4) and monitor the FTC module sensor data.

This is why I keep asking what kind of documentation you're using. The chapter in the factory service manual for the Folding Top is 291 pages long, and full of information you should be thoroughly familiar with before a Tech 2 can be interpreted properly. The pump continues to run because it's trying to drive the Folding Top to a nominal position count reference value, before it eventually times out and stops. You may have more than one problem, but the leak is the priority to prevent further damage, before the Folding Top Position Sensor can be properly evaluated. With the bypass valve opened, you shouldn't have an issue moving the top manually unless there's another problem. You should also visually inspect the position sensor to ensure it is physically secure and not loose since that throws the sensor count out to lunch. There was an old TSB showing how to epoxy the sensors in place, since they're only retained by one fastener and no keying pin, (kind of a lame design, but GM doesn't make money after the sale unless the product fails.) You should always have a pair of sensors on hand for repairs since they aren't terribly reliable in the first place.

When was the last time the top operated nominally?
There is a lot XLR service and repair manuals to find in the net. Not to by the wrong one, can you give me a specific reference for the manual you use? Or can you provide the section for the foldable top?

I need to trouble shoot why the roof does not lift (open sequence) after the front latches have released (does not enter step 2).

Open the top

Ops-. status​
Step​
Motor
Tech 2 Scanner​
Solenoids​
Function​
ok​
1​
CW​

X​
2, 4, 5​
- raises front tonneau
  • unlocks front
  • raises trunk lid
not ok
valve/solenoid 2, 4, 5
remain on​

2​

CW​

X​

1, 4, 5​
- opens roof
-​
3​
CCW​
Y​
1, 4, 5​
- extends rear tonneau
-​
4​
CCW​
Y​
1, 3, 4​
- lowers front tonneau
-​
5​
CCW​
Y​
3​
- closes trunk lid

Close the top

Ops.-status​
Step​
Motor
Tech 2 Scanner​
Solenoids​
Function​
-​
1​
CCW​
Y​
1, 4, 5​
- raises front tonneau
- raises trunk lid
-​
2​
CW​
X​
1, 4, 5​
- retracts rear tonneau
-​
3​
CW​
X​
2, 4, 5​
- close & lock roof
ok​
4​
CW​
X​
2, 3, 4​
- lowers front tonneau
ok​
5​
CW​
X​
3​
- closes trunk

TEC 2 Scanner results

- 5 Microswitches tested: ok
Indicated normal operation for open or closed conditions.

- 3 Potentiometers tested: ok
Indicated value change within given min. and max range values (roof had to be cycled manually)

  • Pump A = X indicated: on (pump sound hearable from pump assy)
  • Pump B = Y indicated: on (pump sound hearable frpom pump assy)
  • Valve 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 indicated: on (for all valve/solenoid one click for "on" and one for "off" hearable)

Open the top step 1; when pressing the roof s/w TEC 2 Scanner indicates pump A, valves 2, 4, 5: ON. Sequence then stops latest after approx. 15'' (pump time-out), the unlocked roof is pulled into the locking position (but not locked) instead of being raised to open. Sequence does not enter step 2.

Then opening the roof is possible, when manually raising the roof while altering (open/close) the roof s/w. During this TEC 2 Scanner indicates all valves "on" or all valves "off", instead of entering step 2, valve 1, 4, 5 "on".

I need to learn from the factory manual why the opening sequence does not enter step 2.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Rather than latching on to an existing thread where your post can easily be missed, you might consider starting a new one.

But to answer your question . . .

I use the GM factory service manuals available from helm: Helm Inc-Your Source for Factory Authorized Service Information Without a factory manual, the Tech II is not very useful for troubleshooting - especially where the Folding Top is concerned. Knowing exactly how the top is supposed to work makes it a lot easier to establish where the problem is when it doesn't.

I'm sure you can find other technical sources that are cheaper, but the GM manuals have everything needed to get the job done in conjunction with a Tech II. There's a lot of top-related info posted within the XLR-specific section of the forums worth reading as well.

CCC
 
#21 ·
Figured out my car’s issues. To be able to open the top manually I had to pull the latches that are above the back window open. Then I had to cut through the silicone the previous owner used to stop the leak at the header or glue down the top panel Once I was able to get past that step, the relearn function worked and now the top works. Still gotta fix the leaky cylinder which I couldn’t get to previously. That’s going out today.
 
#23 ·
Glad you found it. Post #14 pointed to a Folding Top Sensor issue since that's the next step after the Front Tonneau opens, which you said worked properly. Anytime a command doesn't execute, the problem is usually related to the command that happens before it or the actual command for the function that fails to to complete. In your case, it sounds like the previous owner glued the Folding Top shut, which would definitely cause the sensor count to fail when it doesn't see movement right away.

the majority of Folding Top failures are loose or faulty sensors, which is why a tech 2 is invaluable to troubleshoot - along with your eyes, ears, and sometimes nose. . .

CC
 
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