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$2,000.00 for an M3 wheel? That kind of runined your argument right there. I just had my 19" wheel replaced (wife curbed it) and it cost $822.00 with the tire. Not cheap..but not 2k.



darrelld said:
Yes I have seen those statistics, however what you gain in resale can quickly evaporate if you have any repairs. My friends M3 was recently in an accident and one wheel will cost $2000 to replace. The front fender had to return to Germany for painting. The insurance deductibles and out of pocket expenses add up quickly.

This makes the question of repeat buyer ship even more interesting. Knowing the value retention is so high is not enough to get the BMW owner to buy another. Obviously something else in ownership experience was not as pleasant.

Chevrolet and Cadillac despite the lower resale have a higher repeat buyer rate.
 

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Divexxtreme said:
$2,000.00 for an M3 wheel? That kind of runined your argument right there. I just had my 19" wheel replaced (wife curbed it) and it cost $822.00 with the tire. Not cheap..but not 2k.
Argument??? The guy wrecked his M3 and told me what the dealer says the repair costs are. So if there is some credibility problem its with the dealer.

I have no reason to believe my friend would lie.

Even if you discount the cost of ownership the higher residual value is still offset by the higher purchase price. A BMW has about a 5% higher residual for a $55,000 M3 vs a $50,000 CTSV.

Either car will depreciate close to $26,000 after 3 years.

Another factor to consider is long term TCO. If I decide to keep my CTSV for a period of 10 years with really hard miles, my cost of replacing the Z06 Chevy engine or the 6 speed Tremec transmission is relatively cheap compared to your M3.
 

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Damn, 2 Grand! You can buy the whole set with tires on ebay for a little less than that. Or you could get replicas for about 1000. That was certainly some rape right there, I wouldnt go within 50 miles of that dealer ever again.
 

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darrelld said:
Another factor to consider is long term TCO. If I decide to keep my CTSV for a period of 10 years with really hard miles, my cost of replacing the Z06 Chevy engine or the 6 speed Tremec transmission is relatively cheap compared to your M3.
Actually, BMW has been slashing parts prices, a factory S54 (current M3 engine) longblock is now (supposedly - this is second-hand info not personally verified) somewhere around $3500. Makes things sweet for the folks doing S54-into-E36M3 swaps.

My experience and observation has been that in trying to keep a Detroit product ten years, it will be the trim and paint that needs replacement first, not necessarily the mechanicals. Not to say that the CTS or CTS-V will necessarily go this way, but it's been the case with the '80s and '90s GM and Ford iron I've dealt with.

Furthermore, at least with Brand F, parts specific to low-volume models start going NLA after five years or so. Lots of Mustang SVO pieces were gone by the end of the '80s, and for many if not most Taurus SHO spares (trans cases, gears, synchros, head gaskets, oil pumps, oil pump gaskets, etc etc etc) the few left on dealer shelves now is the end of the line.
 

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JEM said:
Actually, BMW has been slashing parts prices, a factory S54 (current M3 engine) longblock is now (supposedly - this is second-hand info not personally verified) somewhere around $3500. Makes things sweet for the folks doing S54-into-E36M3 swaps.

My experience and observation has been that in trying to keep a Detroit product ten years, it will be the trim and paint that needs replacement first, not necessarily the mechanicals. Not to say that the CTS or CTS-V will necessarily go this way, but it's been the case with the '80s and '90s GM and Ford iron I've dealt with.

Furthermore, at least with Brand F, parts specific to low-volume models start going NLA after five years or so. Lots of Mustang SVO pieces were gone by the end of the '80s, and for many if not most Taurus SHO spares (trans cases, gears, synchros, head gaskets, oil pumps, oil pump gaskets, etc etc etc) the few left on dealer shelves now is the end of the line.
I think I have to somewhat agree with you JEM. This is where the fairly common saying comes from "It aint the engine thats gonna go on you at 100,000 miles, its everything else around it" referring to trim pieces, control modules, paint and things of the like. And let me be the first to say that Domestic car paint, something I havent touched upon at all, is by FAR some of the worst quality paint in the world. Not because the paint itself is so bad, but the quality control process that goes into getting it and the clear coat on the car is absolutely horrible and has only gotten worse. So bad in fact, that ABC dedicated an investigational program to this subject several years ago.

I remember in the Seville forum this member posted about the new process (it had some industry name just like Six Sigma) GM is using to inspect the metal on their cars, basically only inspecting a few pieces out of the batch, and therefore leaving many rough spots (because of the way recycled metals come out) which lead to oxidation and rust (this was in response to one guys 2000 STS being almost rusted through in some areas) This is PARTICULARLY bad on Chrysler products, but GM and Ford have their problems for sure. And paint is not a cheap thing, my brothers 96 Continental is completely oxidized on the hood, roof and trunk areas and he took care of it. There is actually a 93ish Seville that parks in my parking garage sometimes that has a similar problem. A repaint for one of those cars, and I mean a quality one, not a Maaco jobber, is at least 2000.00 EASY. The last time I saw an oxidized BMW or Merc product it was at least 20 years old and pretty beaten up. Cadillac for the most part uses very high quality paint applications, especially for Diamond White, but you do see bad ones out there all the time. But then BMWs have some key issues too,electrical things come to mind and wire tracing and electronic components on them can be VERY expensive.

I thought it was kind of funny when I had my Cadillac the CRANKshaft position sensors went out on it, and on the bimmer I had to have the CAMshaft position sensor replaced. Weird.
 

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Playdrv4me said:
"It aint the engine thats gonna go on you at 100,000 miles, its everything else around it"
A number of E46 M3 owners experienced engine failure and had difficulty getting BMW to honor the warranty. This was one of the major factors that kept me away from BMW. You can read about these poor guys here;
http://yoy.com/auto/m3_failintro.shtml

I don't care for front drive cars but if I were going foreign it would be Lexus. At least with Lexus I get a quality product with good customer service. The Lexus GS looks promising.
http://autoshow.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/100916/page056.html?tid=edmunds.e.autoshow..leftnav.57.*
 

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darrelld said:
A number of E46 M3 owners experienced engine failure and had difficulty getting BMW to honor the warranty. This was one of the major factors that kept me away from BMW.
<snip>
I don't care for front drive cars but if I were going foreign it would be Lexus. At least with Lexus I get a quality product with good customer service. The Lexus GS looks promising.
I know there were a fair number of early E46 M3 engine problems, for one thing BMW had a bad batch of cranks and they were changing engines in early production cars even before they went to customers. Inline-sixes have quite a long crankshaft, and the higher-output BMW sixes run quite close to the limit in terms of crankshaft harmonics - there is basically NO room for aftermarket tuners to go bumping rev limits. This has been an issue on the early-90s E34 M5s as well.

There were wonderful concept drawings of the new Lexus GS but what was finally shown in the metal was remarkably bland - the pix I've seen look like an E60 BMW 5-series with all the good stuff taken out. But, yes, Toyota is about the only manufacturer from whom I'd ever buy a completely new model in its first year of production, and I'd apply that only to the Japanese-built models.
 

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JEM said:
I know there were a fair number of early E46 M3 engine problems, for one thing BMW had a bad batch of cranks and they were changing engines in early production cars even before they went to customers. Inline-sixes have quite a long crankshaft, and the higher-output BMW sixes run quite close to the limit in terms of crankshaft harmonics - there is basically NO room for aftermarket tuners to go bumping rev limits. This has been an issue on the early-90s E34 M5s as well.

There were wonderful concept drawings of the new Lexus GS but what was finally shown in the metal was remarkably bland - the pix I've seen look like an E60 BMW 5-series with all the good stuff taken out. But, yes, Toyota is about the only manufacturer from whom I'd ever buy a completely new model in its first year of production, and I'd apply that only to the Japanese-built models.
This thread is approaching singularity status so I'll throw this in the mix just to see what the response is;
http://www.lsj.com/news/business/040106_cadillac_1a-7a.html
 

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That situation with the M3's really sucks, I remember reading that in that last post you and me were going back and forth on :p . But in all fairness you cant apply that to every single one, I just dont think thats completely accurate to do. In the end though, its going to come down to the service I get, and so far id rate it at about 80 percent satisfactory. I wont say 100 because I heard a diff whine that they said was alright, but I am convinced its not. In defense of the service writer, he offered to take a ride with me and I couldnt go, I have another appointment scheduled for sometime next week.

Do you like the new GS Darrell? I dont think it made it off the drawing board the way it should have at all. I think the current model GS is the best looking one by far, the new one could pass for a Hyundai Elantra GT at some angles, just the opposite of the CTS completely, and it has no defining character whatsoever. HOWEVER, as far as technology is concerned it is a tour de force with several cool new tricks up its sleeve and of course Lexus reliability. I am not extremely excited about the new STS, but the new GS is absolutely un-enticing to look at, its going the way so many cars are now with that "sports-tourer hatch" look like the Malibu Maxx and the Pacifica and upcoming R-Class mercedes... just havent warmed up to that yet.

Good article on the lansing plant.
 

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Playdrv4me said:
That situation with the M3's really sucks, I remember reading that in that last post you and me were going back and forth on :p . But in all fairness you cant apply that to every single one, I just dont think thats completely accurate to do. In the end though, its going to come down to the service I get, and so far id rate it at about 80 percent satisfactory. I wont say 100 because I heard a diff whine that they said was alright, but I am convinced its not. In defense of the service writer, he offered to take a ride with me and I couldnt go, I have another appointment scheduled for sometime next week.

Do you like the new GS Darrell? I dont think it made it off the drawing board the way it should have at all. I think the current model GS is the best looking one by far, the new one could pass for a Hyundai Elantra GT at some angles, just the opposite of the CTS completely, and it has no defining character whatsoever. HOWEVER, as far as technology is concerned it is a tour de force with several cool new tricks up its sleeve and of course Lexus reliability. I am not extremely excited about the new STS, but the new GS is absolutely un-enticing to look at, its going the way so many cars are now with that "sports-tourer hatch" look like the Malibu Maxx and the Pacifica and upcoming R-Class mercedes... just havent warmed up to that yet.

Good article on the lansing plant.
Too much like the Infiniti G35 on the exterior and I said it had "potential" with a rear drive 300hp V8 offering. I remember mentioning the M3 article somewhere but not in this thread. That M3 article and the one it references in "Road Fly" convinced me BMW didn't' give a damn about its customers.
http://members.roadfly.org/jason/frame1.htm
 

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Oops yea, I didnt mean last post, I meant last thread. I think it was the one about dealer issues or something. Interesting to see what all has been going on with that engine issue, I am hoping I never have to deal with BMW at that level anyway, but hopfully if I do my experience will be better. I know the dealership experience has been great overall.
 
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