[peccles]

Now, for your other comments.

No. The M3 does not come in a 4-door, and it hasn't in over 6 years. And no, the CTS-V has NOT beaten the M3. There hasn't been a independent test yet, remember? Also, the CTS-V has 400 HP. The current M3 has 333 HP. The extra HP makes up for the extra weight of the CTS-V when it comes to acceleration.

The next-gen M3 will have at least 400HP and will weigh over 400 lbs less than the CTS-V. The next-gen M5 will have 500HP and weigh approximately the same as the CTS-V. That is why I guarantee BMW has absolutely NOTHING to worry about from Cadillac. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The next-gen 3/4series isn't due until the '06MY. The new M5/M6 is due later in the
'05MY. Assuming the '06 CTS-V still has the LS6 and not the new LS7, at test
against the new M3/M4 should be close. The BMW will have the weight advantage but I
don't think it will have any torque advantage over the CTS-V. It is rumored to be getting
a 4.0L V-8. Torque will probably be in the low to mid 300s.

When the CTS-V gets the LS7( '07 ?), then the test against the new M5 will be interesting.

 

[JEM]

Ive tried to stay out of this stupid cliche anti-american / anti-german bickering because I am one of the BMW owners/ENTHUSIASTS who does NOT believe BMW and Mercedes rule the earth without fault

Likewise.

We own a couple Bimmers because, for the past 30 years, when you went out into the US car market and looked around for a decently fast and fun (around corners, not just straight-line), practical (four usable seats and sufficient doors to get to them), comfortable rear-wheel drive car there was flat nothing from Detroit and very little from Japan, and if you want a manual transmission you're left with BMW and only a few others. It also helps that they are decently well built (though certainly far from perfect) and have an enormously active user community.

BMW needs competition to keep them honest. We've been very happy with our Bimmers, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't consider something else. I'd be inclined to favor a US-manufactured vehicle, and in a perfect world even one with a US nameplate on it, but first and foremost it has to be a good product with good support and a competitive pricetag.

If GM can do that, so much the better.

 

[Divexxtreme]

This may surprise you, but I completely agree. Unless the next-gen M4 comes with over 450HP, I'll be jumping ship to get a C6 Z06.

I'm somewhat brand loyal, but if the brand I like isn't making the car I want...I'll buy something else. GM has been doing a wonderful job with the Z06. It has good reliability, great mileage and I don't have to tell you about the it's performance capabilities (wish the resale was better though). Of course I'll keep my M3 for what I feel is the "ultimate" daily driver, but the Z06 will be my weekend performance car.

Likewise.

We own a couple Bimmers because, for the past 30 years, when you went out into the US car market and looked around for a decently fast and fun (around corners, not just straight-line), practical (four usable seats and sufficient doors to get to them), comfortable rear-wheel drive car there was flat nothing from Detroit and very little from Japan, and if you want a manual transmission you're left with BMW and only a few others. It also helps that they are decently well built (though certainly far from perfect) and have an enormously active user community.

BMW needs competition to keep them honest. We've been very happy with our Bimmers, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't consider something else. I'd be inclined to favor a US-manufactured vehicle, and in a perfect world even one with a US nameplate on it, but first and foremost it has to be a good product with good support and a competitive pricetag.

If GM can do that, so much the better.

 

[darrelld]

Question for you BMW guys.

If the cars are as great as you say why does BMW have a repeat buyer percentage lower than Hyundai?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/class...9,0,7373406.story?coll=chi-classifiedcars-hed

 

[Ralph]

Boy, this new V must be one hell of an awsome car to make the German lovers nervous like this. It will be good to see (for a change) the overrated German manufacturers tremble for a while to try and play "catch up" with this new Cadillac.

My Aunt has a 735i, and that thing is in the shop more than on the road! I'll stick with my American made Cadillac.

Darrelld, love your signature, very patriotic! Wish I could read the fine details though.

 

[Playdrv4me]

I dont need to read that and ill sum it up like this...

Because Hyundai makes DAMN GOOD cars for the money. Dont dog Hyundai,If anyone on earth can learn and do faster than just about anyone, its those Koreans. Hyundai has come from the craptacular Excel of 1986, to aiming to be top 5 yes thats right TOP 5 car manufacturer in the United States. My mother has owned 2 Hyundais, a 1993 Excel and a 2000 Elantra which she has banged up to the point of no return, and has been to the service aisle less than any single car (about twice) ive owned in my entire car owning history, and thats 8! She is looking at getting a third, a Hyundai Santa Fe, and wont let me convince her otherwise. Sooo im not so sure thats a bad thing after all. Hell, Hyundai already owns two major brands, an engineering and manufacturing firm, and who knows what else, and been HERE for less than 20 years.

I get so tired of people dawging Hyundai and never believing that a company can change... As the old slogan goes... Hyundai... Yes,Hyundai.

And Ralph, no one is trembling (yet), just watching VERY VERY closely.

 

[darrelld]

Boy, this new V must be one hell of an awsome car to make the German lovers nervous like this. It will be good to see (for a change) the overrated German manufacturers tremble for a while to try and play "catch up" with this new Cadillac.

My Aunt has a 735i, and that thing is in the shop more than on the road! I'll stick with my American made Cadillac.

Darrelld, love your signature, very patriotic! Wish I could read the fine details though.

Thanks, heres is a link to this awesome classic ad;
http://www.frenkenstein.com/ww2/ads/cadillac_P-38.htm

My father in law was a lieutenant under General Patton during WWII, the stories he tells are amazing.

 

[Divexxtreme]

That's based entitrely on brand loyalty. Some people stick to their brands no matter what and this study shows it. Also, Hyundai is a great company. They make inexpensive cars that do what they are intended to do, and they do it well.

While we're on the subject of answering question for each other, perhaps you can tell me why BMW is the number one rated brand in resale this year?

http://money.cnn.com/2003/11/10/pf/autos/retained_value/

Question for you BMW guys.

If the cars are as great as you say why does BMW have a repeat buyer percentage lower than Hyundai?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/chi-0401190004jan19,0,7373406.story?coll=chi-classifiedcars-hed

 

[Ralph]

Thanks, heres is a link to this awesome classic ad;
http://www.frenkenstein.com/ww2/ads/cadillac_P-38.htm

My father in law was a lieutenant under General Patton during WWII, the stories he tells are amazing.

Cool Dude, you have a new supporter in this war! LOL! I've had family fight in WW1 and my Grandpa in WW2. He still chops wood every day, and I think that's what keeps him going. I was talking with a Vet who lived in my other building a couple of years ago, anyway he fought with the Americans on the Aleutian Islands near Alaska. Yes, the Japanese made it that close to Alaska!! I wasn't completely sure that Cadillac made engines for the war effort, but now I can put that to rest. I bet if Alaska wasn't American soil, they would have made it into Canada!! No Canadian unit ever gave up a "charge" or backed away from a battle. That has been documented. Just some info for ya. Also, we supposedly have always had the highest casuality rates in both big wars.

Back on topic: I do think BMW and Benz are overrated (sorry BMW guys) If you check out their Forums, they have their share of problems, just as we have.

 

[darrelld]

Cool Dude, you have a new supporter in this war! LOL! I've had family fight in WW1 and my Grandpa in WW2. He still chops wood every day, and I think that's what keeps him going. I was talking with a Vet who lived in my other building a couple of years ago, anyway he fought with the Americans on the Aleutian Islands near Alaska. Yes, the Japanese made it that close to Alaska!! I wasn't completely sure that Cadillac made engines for the war effort, but now I can put that to rest. I bet if Alaska wasn't American soil, they would have made it into Canada!! No Canadian unit ever gave up a "charge" or backed away from a battle. That has been documented. Just some info for ya. Also, we supposedly have always had the highest casuality rates in both big wars.

Back on topic: I do think BMW and Benz are overrated (sorry BMW guys) If you check out their Forums, they have their share of problems, just as we have.

Welcome aboard, it seems as if one of these guys beats the holy BMW drum and others follow some instinctive urge and attempt to join in the fray.

Most of what they say is so repetitive and simplistic no real thought is required to formulate a response.

Intersting to note that Cadillac has a higher repeat customer rate than BMW.

 

[Divexxtreme]

LOL..ya, and your SO original Darrell. I see you got a new Avatar. Too bad Al had to go.

Welcome aboard, it seems as if one of these guys beats the holy BMW drum and others follow some instinctive urge and attempt to join in the fray.

Most of what they say is so repetitive and simplistic no real thought is required to formulate a response.

Intersting to note that Cadillac has a higher repeat customer rate than BMW.

 

[darrelld]

LOL..ya, and your SO original Darrell. I see you got a new Avatar. Too bad Al had to go.

Yea I did that just for you, you seemed like it was making you a little wierd.

 

[Playdrv4me]

Most of what they say is so repetitive and simplistic no real thought is required to formulate a response..

What was that about predictable?

Funny thing is I actually somewhat agree, I only hang out on the BMW forums for Technical advice if I need it, I come here for good genuine down to earth grass roots car talk and talk about the auto industry because (for the most part) people here are intelligent and not high school yuppies or mod fanatics.

However, there are exceptions on every forum...

oooh Alain Decadenet is commenting on the Barrett-Jackson auction... my attention diverts momentarily. Now heres some cars that deserve some respect.

 

[darrelld]

What was that about predictable?

Funny thing is I actually somewhat agree, I only hang out on the BMW forums for Technical advice if I need it, I come here for good genuine down to earth grass roots car talk and talk about the auto industry because (for the most part) people here are intelligent and not high school yuppies or mod fanatics.

However, there are exceptions on every forum...

oooh Alain Decadenet is commenting on the Barrett-Jackson auction... my attention diverts momentarily. Now heres some cars that deserve some respect.

Is that on tonight???

Sorry guys I am off to watch Speed.

 

[Playdrv4me]

Is that on tonight???

Sorry guys I am off to watch Speed.

Ya! 2 hours to go for tonight!! :bouncy: :bouncy:

Amy Sparks = Hot.

 

[darrelld]

That's based entitrely on brand loyalty. Some people stick to their brands no matter what and this study shows it. Also, Hyundai is a great company. They make inexpensive cars that do what they are intended to do, and they do it well.

While we're on the subject of answering question for each other, perhaps you can tell me why BMW is the number one rated brand in resale this year?

http://money.cnn.com/2003/11/10/pf/autos/retained_value/

Yes I have seen those statistics, however what you gain in resale can quickly evaporate if you have any repairs. My friends M3 was recently in an accident and one wheel will cost $2000 to replace. The front fender had to return to Germany for painting. The insurance deductibles and out of pocket expenses add up quickly.

This makes the question of repeat buyer ship even more interesting. Knowing the value retention is so high is not enough to get the BMW owner to buy another. Obviously something else in ownership experience was not as pleasant.

Chevrolet and Cadillac despite the lower resale have a higher repeat buyer rate.

 

[JEM]

Yes I have seen those statistics, however what you gain in resale can quickly evaporate if you have any repairs. My friends M3 was recently in an accident and one wheel will cost $2000 to replace. The front fender had to return to Germany for painting. The insurance deductibles and out of pocket expenses add up quickly.

This makes the question of repeat buyer ship even more interesting. Knowing the value retention is so high is not enough to get the BMW owner to buy another. Obviously something else in ownership experience was not as pleasant.

Chevrolet and Cadillac despite the lower resale have a higher repeat buyer rate.

Somehow that doesn't all square. Sounds like someone's body shop is jacking their insurer. I know BMW parts pricing - it's often quite reasonable, e.g. $200 for a 540i radiator from the dealer, $300 for a new bumper cap. Okay, some things are a little high, I paid $190 for a Euro-market aspheric side mirror glass for my M5 but that's something of a specialty item here.

$2000 for an M3 wheel sounds 50% too high - M5 wheels are $800 new IIRC. Returning a fender to Germany for painting? I know of M3s that have been virtually rebuilt with nothing like that involved. I suppose if they managed to get the car put through the BMW Individual program for some oddball paint color that can't be replicated here, but that would be very, very unusual.

As for repeat-buyer statistics - I suspect it has a lot to do with how the data is collected and how the question is defined, and without knowing that any interpretation is suspicious. For instance, Buick's appearance at the top of the 'quality' numbers looks to me like complete satisfaction of very low expectations. A perfectly cylindrical, evenly colored bowel movement is still a bowel movement.

 

[darrelld]

As for repeat-buyer statistics - I suspect it has a lot to do with how the data is collected and how the question is defined, and without knowing that any interpretation is suspicious.

The data is collected and reported by JDPower, have you heard of them?
As far as repeat buyer data interpretation I don't know what you could mean.

If I own a BMW and don't buy another one then you would count that as not a repeat buy. If I own a Cadillac and I buy another this is considered a repeat buy. Are you starting to understand the process?

 

[JEM]

The data is collected and reported by JDPower, have you heard of them?
As far as repeat buyer data interpretation I don't know what you could mean.

If I own a BMW and don't buy another one then you would count that as not a repeat buy. If I own a Cadillac and I buy another this is considered a repeat buy. Are you starting to understand the process?

Yes, but who/where is the data collected?

Is it as reported by dealers, or by the purchaser/lessor?

Is it based on vehicles traded in to dealers?

What about someone who sells their vehicle privately?

What if the old vehicle is kept (not traded, not sold)?

Is it based only on the last vehicle purchased/traded, or on any other vehicles within the household?

Perhaps these details are out there somewhere, but they do matter.

 

[darrelld]

Yes, but who/where is the data collected?

Is it as reported by dealers, or by the purchaser/lessor?

Is it based on vehicles traded in to dealers?

What about someone who sells their vehicle privately?

What if the old vehicle is kept (not traded, not sold)?

Is it based only on the last vehicle purchased/traded, or on any other vehicles within the household?

Perhaps these details are out there somewhere, but they do matter.

2003 Customer Retention Study Summary

The 2003 Customer Retention Study measures the ability of nameplates to retain their owners who are once again in the market for a new vehicle. The study is based on responses from 177,000 new-vehicle buyers, out of which 106,418 replaced a previous vehicle that was originally purchased new.

http://www.jdpa.com/studies/summary.asp?StudyID=833&CatID=1

http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=833&CatID=1