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The difference in price for the M-5 over the M3 is for having a larger vehicle with 4-doors. The M3 outperforms the M5 and is the pinnacle of BMW's M division. They've won dozens all of those racing championships with the M3. Not the M5. The M5, as outstanding as it is, was an afterthought for BMW M. They wanted a fast car that older, less aggressive drivers would want. This seems to be the target market for the CTS-V as well. It will be behind the power curve in it's class of large, high-HP 4-door sedans (upcoming 500HP M-5, E55, R6S, etc..), but for the price it's a great choice.



GNSCOTT said:
No one said anything about 1/4 mile times alone. Look at the lap performance between the M3 and M5. My comparison is between all 3 cars. You could pay $20k plus for an M5 over an M3 or CTSV just to have a bigger car. If you can find the $20k difference justification between an M3 and M5, i'd say you would have to be a world class racer and even then i'm not sure.

BTW, Cadillac's 13.1 claim isn't claimed by GM. It says it was done by independent tester. Like every car, there are some faster than others, and i'm sure we will see improved times. As for improved lap times, probably not seeing how the car was tested by top drivers, not magazine testers alone.
 

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Divexxtreme said:
They wanted a fast car that older, less aggressive drivers would want. This seems to be the target market for the CTS-V as well. It will be behind the power curve in it's class of large, high-HP 4-door sedans (upcoming 500HP M-5, E55, R6S, etc..), but for the price it's a great choice.
If what you state is true then why expend the resources to go against the M3 et.,al.;

http://www.world-challenge.com/news/04press1.html
 

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I think the point of all of this should be brand loyalist facing the truth.

BMW's official M3 numbers are 4.8 Sec 0-60 and 13.4 1/4 mile.

Cadillac offers numbers that are what 4.6 or 4.7 at this time and we have no reason to distrust that so those people that would like to indicate Cadillac is lying should really stop.

Let's just wait for the comparisons of the two cars so that BMW loyalist can face true hard facts and not finagle out of the truth with weak numbers that no one but that magazine has ever produced. I am speaking of unbiased sources and even BMW it self doesn't offer the number that R&T does. Please both need to be tested at the same time on the same track. I would not be surprised if R&T did that test with the wind at there backs.

It will come down to V6 vs. V8, 333Hp vs. 400Hp and two cars that can carve up the road so we will see!!!!! We will see!!!!
 

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Because there isn't a specific class for cars such as the CTS-V, M5, RS-6, etc..so Cadillac smartly decided to race it in the GT class. Audi did the same thing with their RS-6. Good call on Caddy's part actually. It's gets the CTS-V exposure and gets their name out there as a racing manufacturer. But the lightened, lowered, high-HP race cars aren't anything like the production cars. The production CTS-V is a DIRECT competitor of the other 4-doors sedans that weigh over 3700 lbs. Cars like the M-5, RS-6, E55 AMG, etc.. Wait until the mags do direct comparison tests and you'll see what I mean.

Speaking of the new RS6, here's a link to video of a stock M3 beating a 450HP Twin Turbo RS6 from roll.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34209


darrelld said:
If what you state is true then why expend the resources to go against the M3 et.,al.;

http://www.world-challenge.com/news/04press1.html
 

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I am not trying to argue with you but since when does a cars weight determine its class?

Let me ask this in the last comparisons the CTS was put up against what cars? If I remember correctly it was cars in the 30-40K range such as the Jag, BMW 3, IS300 etc. not Benz E class, BMW 5** or what ever.

Funny what car does the S4 go up against? The M3!!! and the S4 is a 4 door car as the CTS-V is. I am sorry it is bias the way they operate. What do you think the STS-V is going to do batter with? The E55 and M5 not the S55 which is way up there in price.
 

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rueben44 said:
I think the point of all of this should be brand loyalist facing the truth.

BMW's official M3 numbers are 4.8 Sec 0-60 and 13.4 1/4 mile.

Cadillac offers numbers that are what 4.6 or 4.7 at this time and we have no reason to distrust that so those people that would like to indicate Cadillac is lying should really stop.

It will come down to V6 vs. V8, 333Hp vs. 400Hp and two cars that can carve up the road so we will see!!!!! We will see!!!!
Yes imagine the embarassment of the M3 driver beaten by a 4 door Cadillac, the bimmer boys bristle with denial and disbelief.
 

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I'm not a "BMW brand loyalist". I'm a car enthusiast. The only reason I bought an M3 is because I don't feel there's a single car under 100k on the planet that can match in overall value and performance. The Z06 will outperform it, sure. But that's all does well. It's too one-dimensional. It's not what I would call a "nice, quality car". Plus it only has two seats.

As far R&T doing there test with the wind at their back, I take it you completely missed the videos I posted on the previous page? Low 13's for M3's are commonplace. Mid-13's are the result of bad drivers. Just like the R&T runs 13.1's in the 2003 Cobra, which any car enthusiast knows is a consistent high 12 second car. Or take the Z06, I've seen a stock one run a high 11 on OEM tires. That's much faster than any of the mags have run. Maybe the CTS-V will be competetive, maybe it won't. But right now it's all hype with no solid numbers.

Like I said, the Caddy is a great car. But BMW with it's next-gen 500HP lightened M5 and 400-425 HP lightened M3 have nothing to worry about from Cadillac.

rueben44 said:
I think the point of all of this should be brand loyalist facing the truth.

BMW's official M3 numbers are 4.8 Sec 0-60 and 13.4 1/4 mile.

Cadillac offers numbers that are what 4.6 or 4.7 at this time and we have no reason to distrust that so those people that would like to indicate Cadillac is lying should really stop.

Let's just wait for the comparisons of the two cars so that BMW loyalist can face true hard facts and not finagle out of the truth with weak numbers that no one but that magazine has ever produced. I am speaking of unbiased sources and even BMW it self doesn't offer the number that R&T does. Please both need to be tested at the same time on the same track. I would not be surprised if R&T did that test with the wind at there backs.

It will come down to V6 vs. V8, 333Hp vs. 400Hp and two cars that can carve up the road so we will see!!!!! We will see!!!!
 

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LOL....if a car's faster, it's faster. Period. Just like a E55 AMG will demolish an M3. I could care less. It's supposed to. Stop being so insecure.:annoyed:




darrelld said:
Yes imagine the embarassment of the M3 driver beaten by a 4 door Cadillac, the bimmer boys bristle with denial and disbelief.
 

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Divexxtreme said:
I'm not a "BMW brand loyalist".

But BMW with it's next-gen 500HP lightened M5 and 400-425 HP lightened M3 have nothing to worry about from Cadillac.
By the time this event occurs the next generation Z06 producing 500hp+ is slated for the CTSV.

Even BMW is abandoning the current 6 to achieve this amount of reliable power.
 

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darrelld said:
Yes imagine the embarassment of the M3 driver beaten by a 4 door Cadillac, the bimmer boys bristle with denial and disbelief.


Out of all car manufactures owners BMW's seem to be the most arrogant when it comes to some one doing battle with there make. I understand BMW has been the best for about 15 years now but some times it is time to concede and except the inevitable. You will no longer sit on top. If BMW does come out a V10 in the next M3, I wish they would, GM will only boost the power of the CTS's motor and a good old American V8 will win out. Not to mention the fuel economy war is already being won and BMW reaching will only expand the gap.

I don't want to argue with you I want one magazine to do a comparison between the two at the same time and we will see. Like I said before if you look at the official numbers from the two makes BMW looses I could can less what Joe Schmo get in number when I don't know what he has done to the car.

Plus have you heard the next Corvette Z06 will have 500HP!!! The engine is lighter than the past one also and if Caddy were to put that in the CTS-V as it is rumored they will well…….Good by BMW!!!!! Remember that will be without a loss of fuel economy. Do you think BMW can or will be able to say the same?
 

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It's typically based on HP numbers and size. The S-4 because of it's 350 HP, competes against the M3, Porsche 911, Corvette (non-Z06), etc.. even though it's got 4-doors. But now that there are so many sedan type sports cars, it gets a little confusing. Wait until the comparison tests start coming out. You'll see the CTS-V compete in the same class as the E55, Jag, RS-6, etc since it has over 400 HP and is a BIG car. The Jag S-Type R, for example, always gets smoked by those cars (M5, E55, RS6)in performance tests, but since it's so large and has a good amount of HP (390), it's never pitted against the M3, C32, 911, etc..



rueben44 said:
I am not trying to argue with you but since when does a cars weight determine its class?

Let me ask this in the last comparisons the CTS was put up against what cars? If I remember correctly it was cars in the 30-40K range such as the Jag, BMW 3, IS300 etc. not Benz E class, BMW 5** or what ever.

Funny what car does the S4 go up against? The M3!!! and the S4 is a 4 door car as the CTS-V is. I am sorry it is bias the way they operate. What do you think the STS-V is going to do batter with? The E55 and M5 not the S55 which is way up there in price.
 

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What do you mean the Z0-7? The C-6 Z-06 with 500 HP isn't even out yet and won't be for at least two years, and by that time both the next-gen M3/M4 and M5 will be out as well. THe 635 HP Blue Devil will be out a year after that, but that's a specialty car that will cosat over 100k. And yes, BMW is going to a V-8 for the M3. They are doing what they need to do to keep up with the HP wars. They've already proven they can beat the competition's big V-8's with their little inline 6-cylinder (very embarrassing for GM and Ford), but when the competiton starts using FI V-8's and large displacement N/A V-8's that make over 500 HP, it's time to beat them at their own game. And since BMW won't use turbo or superchargers like Porsche does, a lightweight V-8 is the obvious choice.



darrelld said:
By the time this event occurs the next generation Z07 producing 700hp+ is slated for the CTSV.

Even BMW is abandoning the current 6 to achieve this amount of reliable power.
 

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rueben44 said:
Out of all car manufactures owners BMW's seem to be the most arrogant when it comes to some one doing battle with there make.
Germany and its sympathizers have had this superior attitude throughout history.
 

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Do you know why the SType R really does battle against the E55, M5 and such? Because it is a car that is a performance model priced at 63K. In the price range of its competitors. Want to know why it looses? Because Ford does not put enough development money into its performance program.
 

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Absolutely. Look at the numbers. The M3, C-5 Corvette, S-4, Porsche 911 C-2 and C4 are almost identical in performance with the M3 and Corvette being in top two postions.



rueben44 said:
So you really think the S-4 competes against the Corvette and 911 Porsche ?
 

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I think the main thing you're missing here is that the other manufacturers have been chasing BMW for ever. This year, they caught up. But they only caught up with BMW's older cars. The New cars will put BMW on top again. As it always will be when it comes to a car that does everthing right, BMW will reign. I'm considering buying a C-6 Z06 to park next to my M-3 when it comes out, but I would never replace my m3 with one.

rueben44 said:
Out of all car manufactures owners BMW's seem to be the most arrogant when it comes to some one doing battle with there make. I understand BMW has been the best for about 15 years now but some times it is time to concede and except the inevitable. You will no longer sit on top. If BMW does come out a V10 in the next M3, I wish they would, GM will only boost the power of the CTS's motor and a good old American V8 will win out. Not to mention the fuel economy war is already being won and BMW reaching will only expand the gap.

I don't want to argue with you I want one magazine to do a comparison between the two at the same time and we will see. Like I said before if you look at the official numbers from the two makes BMW looses I could can less what Joe Schmo get in number when I don't know what he has done to the car.

Plus have you heard the next Corvette Z06 will have 500HP!!! The engine is lighter than the past one also and if Caddy were to put that in the CTS-V as it is rumored they will well…….Good by BMW!!!!! Remember that will be without a loss of fuel economy. Do you think BMW can or will be able to say the same?
 

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LOL..so "car enthusiast" means "German sympathizer" in your book, huh? I'll be sure to remember that when I'm fighting in Iraq the next 6-months. :rolleyes:

Well, it's been fun! I'm off to drive my M now! Looking forward to the comparison tests.:)



darrelld said:
Germany and its sympathizers have had this superior attitude throughout history.
 

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So with your logic when GM did that super(turbo?) charged Ecotec 4 banger(Cavalier) that got 1000HP...If they were to compare it with someone else they would look to Mclaren, Ferrari etc. Right!

No my friend it is determined by what class the base car is in. For example:

E420 - E55
545- M5
Audi A6- S6


CTS - CTS-V
330 - M3
A4 - S4

So in that mix you would not throw in sports cars like the Boxster or Z4 because they are in another class of competitors, the drop top roadster group. Have fun in your M because I love my CTS!!!
 

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Divexxtreme said:
LOL..so "car enthusiast" means "German sympathizer" in your book, huh? I'll be sure to remember that when I'm fighting in Iraq the next 6-months. :rolleyes:

Well, it's been fun! I'm off to drive my M now! Looking forward to the comparison tests.:)
Good luck in Iraq and watch out for those missles that Sadaam developed with help from your German friends.

German-made electronics were the heart of the Iraqi Scud warhead fusing mechanism. The very same fusing mechanism was employed effectively by Iraq when a Scud fell on the U.S. Army barracks outside Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 28 American soldiers and wounding over 100 others.

http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Iraq/Missile/2970_2971.html
 
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