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2009 CTS-V 6MT, 2017 AMG GLC43
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Discussion Starter #1
Dear GM,

After reading the initial ATS-V reviews, it looks like the ATS-V will be close to parity with the gen2 CTS-V in performance. A tad slower in acceleration, a tad better in handling. Sure it delivers better fuel economy and better electronics, but there's turbo lag and although the interior materials are a step up, the dashboard design is a step down -- and the enhanced V6 sound will never be a V8. No doubt, the ATS-V is an awesome car in its own right, but it shouldn't be the only manual transmission V!

Speaking as an owner of a manual CTS-V2 (and former owner of a V1), I feel like we've been removed from the V-series marketing plan. That's in spite of being one of the loyal customers who bought a V1, a car aimed at lunatics enamored with the thought a hot-rod Cadillac with a stick-shift that could play with BMW M-cars and Mercedes AMG.

Have you forgotten us, Cadillac? We were your early adopters. Has the V-series matured to the point where you want to discard your early adopters? Should we be looking elsewhere? The Corvette folks did the right the thing and kept the manuals going -- please find the cojones to do the same with the CTS-V!

A lateral move and downsize just won't cut it -- and neither will an automatic.

Sincerely,

Early Loyal V Customer
 

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300 SRT8, 392 cubic inches of tire smoking power!
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For decades Cadillac has created niche markets then walked away from them.
 

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2012 CTSV coupe
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If this is a petition... Then put me on it. Im a V2 owner. Im looking at getting the new CTS V3. But without the manual ill just keep my V2. Will it be as fast as a V3... yes cause i made it so. GM can you make the V3 a manual...
 

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'16 CTS V-Sport Black/'16 CTS Luxury w/V-Sport Pkg White
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let me get this out before i get flamed.....i agree a manual option in V3 would be a nice cherry on top of a really sweet cake

But, as a dealer new car buyer, i can tell you blame is misplaced if you think Cadillac is the problem....those here who bought a stick and i commend, and thank you .... but the bottom line is buyers are to blame not Cadillac...of the over 150 + V's i've purchased for sale i've only been asked to special order a stick no more than once maybe twice a year

we would average about 2 V's a month sold and the cars were on sale from 2009 to 2015 (2015 was limited coupe run sales very low)....we tried to maintain between 5 and 10 V's stock on hand and i personally tried to keep at least 1 manual in stock or in the pipeline at all times but guess which one was slowest to sell?

with this slow turn rate i could only ever justify 1 at a time, at best i could get 3 (one wagon, one sedan, one coupe) in stock during summer

in the end our best manual seller was the wagon but bottom line we at best sold 6 wagon sticks, 3 Coupes sticks and 3 sedan sticks in the V's six and a half year run....that's 12 cars out of over 150 that i've personally configured and purchased for sale

now a little background so it's understood how consumers voted with their dollars we probably sold over 600 CTS' and V's were roughly a quarter of them (all body types) and the way these are ordered V is an option group of CTS so in theory if demand warranted all of those 600 CTS' could have been V's and all could have been manuals....our V take rate was roughly 1 in 4 so roughly 150 V's sold of those 150 V's fewer than 12 were manual....see where this is going? roughly 3% of out total CTS sales were stick compare this with roughly 25% manual take rate for corvette

so ask yourself honestly if you ran a business and a customer asked you for something that would hurt your bottom line would you do it, and i'm not talking about a goodwill customer service kind of thing i'm talking a business plan change that will cost your business not improve your business.

this is why V3 is automatic only and its the fault of consumers....but it's still sad
 

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09 V 6M Thunder Gray
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259 Posts
Damnit, I have to agree with your assessment POW. I don't have to like it though.

The only value to GM that may be missed here is the intangible. I can't tell you how many people's eyes pop when they see my V is a manual. I've actually had people ask if I did the conversion. I'd pay an extra $3k for a manual V3. Tell GM that.
 

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'16 CTS V-Sport Black/'16 CTS Luxury w/V-Sport Pkg White
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Damnit, I have to agree with your assessment POW. I don't have to like it though.

The only value to GM that may be missed here is the intangible. I can't tell you how many people's eyes pop when they see my V is a manual. I've actually had people ask if I did the conversion. I'd pay an extra $3k for a manual V3. Tell GM that.
now this is a model that has some merit, pass the expense on to those who demand it, however with automatics traditionally the chargeable upgrade, i suspect there would be outrage if this were done.
 

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2009 CTS-V 6MT, 2017 AMG GLC43
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Discussion Starter #8
Even if 10% of customers want a manual, there's a business case there.

Make it special order only if inventory is a concern -- no sense stocking them at every dealership.

Keep in mind, manual V customers are:
1) Loyal enthusiasts. They are the ones who lit up this forum in the first place and created more buzz for the V brand than any marketing campaign ever has. Word of mouth in the enthusiast community has much more credibility than any advertising. In fact, I bought my first V after joining this forum.
2) Existing customers. It's common knowledge that the acquisition cost for a repeat customer is much lower than a new customer. Why let 10% or more of your easiest repeat sales fall by the wayside? I wouldn't.
3) Very savvy car folks who do their homework. Many folks buy on a whim and disappear to other brands as fast they appear. All sales are good sales, but those aren't the customers who make your brand. Savvy car folks are reference customers and proof points at the end of the day.

Paying extra for a manual is fine with me too, if it helps make the numbers work better for the bean counters.

Although they may come across as intangibles, customers are a really compelling business reasons to build a manual. If the big struggle for Cadillac is brand perception, nothing can fix this better than having the right customers.
 

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'16 CTS V-Sport Black/'16 CTS Luxury w/V-Sport Pkg White
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Even if 10% of customers want a manual, there's a business case there.

Make it special order only if inventory is a concern -- no sense stocking them at every dealership.

Keep in mind, manual V customers are:
1) Loyal enthusiasts. They are the ones who lit up this forum in the first place and created more buzz for the V brand than any marketing campaign ever has. Word of mouth in the enthusiast community has much more credibility than any advertising. In fact, I bought my first V after joining this forum.
2) Existing customers. It's common knowledge that the acquisition cost for a repeat customer is much lower than a new customer. Why let 10% or more of your easiest repeat sales fall by the wayside? I wouldn't.
3) Very savvy car folks who do their homework. Many folks buy on a whim and disappear to other brands as fast they appear. All sales are good sales, but those aren't the customers who make your brand. Savvy car folks are reference customers and proof points at the end of the day.

Paying extra for a manual is fine with me too, if it helps make the numbers work better for the bean counters.

Although they may come across as intangibles, customers are a really compelling business reasons to build a manual. If the big struggle for Cadillac is brand perception, nothing can fix this better than having the right customers.
not worth the numbers

you have interior variations in the footwell and center console adding cost, manufacturing variations in tooling and training adding cost, you have engineering costs, component and sourcing costs, EPA costs for fuel economy and emissions certification, NHTSA costs for crash worthiness testing, and so on....

i guarantee you that any company enthusiastic enough to make cars like the V are also enthusiastic enough to have thought about the cost/benefit equations of all your points....the fact that they tried with Gen2 proves they are aware of Stick shift enthusiasts (but demand let them down) and the fact it's available in the Vette and ATS and they make the effort to refine them with things like rev matching and no lift shift and launch control is further proof.... there are likely very few arguments we have in our armchair quarterbacking that their industry pros haven't already had.

a note to add we are a strong dealer in V sales we do better with them than most so our 25% V sales is unusual among Cadillac dealers so bottom line V's are a niche and manuals are a niche of a niche...sad to say it as cool as a manual would be , it will take more than a wish by a dozen or two forum members to make it happen....like i said they tried it, and it didn't pan out....if we want to see a stick in Gen3 CTS refresh or Gen4 CTS we better hope for really strong sales of ATS-V Manual and M3/4/5 Manual demand possibly combined with weak CTS-V sales (Basically an indicator CTS is losing sales to BMW and ATS for lack of stick) to show that it may be a viable business to do it again
 

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2009 CTS-V 6MT, 2017 AMG GLC43
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Discussion Starter #10
OK, by the numbers, it's an endless argument.

But if this whole model line is a niche and you already have the parts sitting in the parts bin, then all the more reason to get it right.

Until then, I'm still holding out -- no slushbox here.
 

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2014 SRX Performance, 2013 CTS-V
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When I called the dealer in Florida to ask about the 2013 CTS-V sedan, they were selling, the first thing they said was that it was a manual. This dealership Tropical Cadillac in Bradenton,Fl., sells a lot of CTS-V's. The one I bought had come off a 2 year lease and had been on the lot for approximately four months. They had just dropped the price a few weeks ago and came down more during the negotiations. I believe the reason I got it for such a reasonable price was because it was a manual in a sedan. I think the coupe probably has a higher ratio of manuals then the sedan.
 

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Hmmm, every V1 sold was a manual = 100% of sales and it was a niche car that now has a ridiculous cult following. Those kids that now drive our aging V1 cars are the Cadillac buyers of the future, it would be wise to keep them engaged as BMW and Audi have recognized.

V is a niche car, it needs to have all of the niche options so it can be the king of the niche and create more of the wacko V defenders (like me) in the world of Cadillac. No, the manual won't sell many copies but neither did the '69 427 4spd Caprice but that Caprice sure is captivating.

I have in fact seen a Panorama with a manual, M5's with manuals, V1, V2 with manuals, the Challenger Hellcat offers a manual. Hopefully Cadillac will choose to continue to engage the youth segment. I can't tell you how shocking it was when my V1 rolled into a High School parking lot and the high school aged boys actually knew what it was and came over to drool on it.
 

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2011 WD Vagon 6MT "Unobtainicorn"
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Yeah all the numbers arguments are correct. We all know manuals are bought by a much smaller percentage, we all know it costs money to make two different transmissions available. But here's my counter argument:

GIVE US A GOD DAMN MANUAL.

Let me explain. The V series Cadillacs are the performance branch of Cadillac's vehicle tree, right? So it follows that the majority of people who buy V series Cadillacs are performance enthusiasts. Because if you weren't, why would you spend the extra money on a CTS-V when you could just buy a CTS, right? Right. So we've established that largely and for the most part, it is performance enthusiasts who are buying V series Cadillacs.

What category of driver do manual transmission enthusiasts fall under? Right, again, it's performance enthusiasts. People who don't care about driving don't buy manuals. They just want the car to drive them to work and back with as little effort as possible. These days especially, the only people who really want manual transmissions are people who are driving and performance enthusiasts. And we can also surmise that people who want a manual transmission are not going to buy a car with an automatic, because when you want a manual, nothing else will do.

So now we've established that for the most part, the people who want manual transmissions are performance enthusiasts, and people who buy V series Cadillacs are performance enthusiasts. Therefore it stands to reason that people who want a manual transmission will be looking at V series Cadillacs and not regular Cadillacs.

It further stands to reason, then, that the V series Cadillacs are the only cars Cadillac makes that they could realistically equip with a manual transmission from a sales standpoint. The V series Cadillacs are the only cars any manual-wanting enthusiast would even consider buying, out of Cadillac's lineup.

So the question becomes, why is Cadillac intentionally limiting sales of the 2016 CTS-V by not having a manual transmission available? Yes, we know they will never sell as many manuals as autos, but the simple fact is that they will sell the same amount of autos either way. Manual enthusiasts, as we've seen in discussions here on the forum, are not willing to put up with an automatic transmission. Look at it this way: They could sell 1000 autos and 100 manuals, or they could just sell 1000 autos. Those 100 manuals represent approx. $8,000,000 in revenue.

Is there some reason Cadillac doesn't want $8,000,000 in revenue?

Not to mention the adoration of every automotive publication in the country? And the chance to one-up the Germans in yet another way, and prove that they make cars for all performance enthusiasts, not just the ones who want that extra tenth of a second on the drag strip?

Seems like a no-brainer to me.
 

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Once upon a time a Cadillac could be had with Dual Quads.
 

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Yeah all the numbers arguments are correct. We all know manuals are bought by a much smaller percentage, we all know it costs money to make two different transmissions available. But here's my counter argument:

GIVE US A GOD DAMN MANUAL.

Let me explain. The V series Cadillacs are the performance branch of Cadillac's vehicle tree, right? So it follows that the majority of people who buy V series Cadillacs are performance enthusiasts. Because if you weren't, why would you spend the extra money on a CTS-V when you could just buy a CTS, right? Right. So we've established that largely and for the most part, it is performance enthusiasts who are buying V series Cadillacs.

What category of driver do manual transmission enthusiasts fall under? Right, again, it's performance enthusiasts. People who don't care about driving don't buy manuals. They just want the car to drive them to work and back with as little effort as possible. These days especially, the only people who really want manual transmissions are people who are driving and performance enthusiasts. And we can also surmise that people who want a manual transmission are not going to buy a car with an automatic, because when you want a manual, nothing else will do.

So now we've established that for the most part, the people who want manual transmissions are performance enthusiasts, and people who buy V series Cadillacs are performance enthusiasts. Therefore it stands to reason that people who want a manual transmission will be looking at V series Cadillacs and not regular Cadillacs.

It further stands to reason, then, that the V series Cadillacs are the only cars Cadillac makes that they could realistically equip with a manual transmission from a sales standpoint. The V series Cadillacs are the only cars any manual-wanting enthusiast would even consider buying, out of Cadillac's lineup.

So the question becomes, why is Cadillac intentionally limiting sales of the 2016 CTS-V by not having a manual transmission available? Yes, we know they will never sell as many manuals as autos, but the simple fact is that they will sell the same amount of autos either way. Manual enthusiasts, as we've seen in discussions here on the forum, are not willing to put up with an automatic transmission. Look at it this way: They could sell 1000 autos and 100 manuals, or they could just sell 1000 autos. Those 100 manuals represent approx. $8,000,000 in revenue.

Is there some reason Cadillac doesn't want $8,000,000 in revenue?

Not to mention the adoration of every automotive publication in the country? And the chance to one-up the Germans in yet another way, and prove that they make cars for all performance enthusiasts, not just the ones who want that extra tenth of a second on the drag strip?

Seems like a no-brainer to me.
i'm not against Manuals...but you are using circular logic to support your point of view that it should be worthwhile for Cadillac to offer a stick

assuming your assumption that $80k being the price of the new V is true 100 sold equals $8 million in sales revenue...ok lets start with that...

first problem is revenue is not profit...in simple terms profit is the result of subtracting costs from revenues are you in possession of knowledge that the costs of creating those 100 cars cost less than $8,000,000 please share if you do...i don't know of very many business' that would spend $10,000,000 to make $8,000,000.....i don't have the answer either but money is as good a reason as anything else explaining why they dropped it

another problem is you assume history will repeat itself G1 CTS was such a new novel thing it was an experiment to answer the question 'would an outrageous Cadillac be well received' the answer was yes, this could have been in spite of it being a stick shift not because of it.....in G2 CTS the stick was tried again and if demand was there every one of them could have been stick but demand was not despite your supposition that these people are performance enthusiasts.

this brings us to another problem in this argument V buyers as performance enthusiasts are the same as manual buyers who are also performance enthusiasts...the problem here is you essentially saying since person likes A they must like B too....here's a thought there are performance buyers that don't care about luxury and luxury buyers who don't care about performance the first buyer might go corvette and the second buyer might go non V Cadillac but your argument leaves out the possibility there is a third kind of buyer who wants more performance from a luxury car and/or wants a performance car that is more luxurious in which case an Automatic V is perfect for them...this seems to be what the sales figures showed Cadillac

there is also the notion that Cadillac is deaf to the appeals of manual lovers and don't get it....then why have they tried offering manuals twice in two different V's and why are they offering the stick in ATS-V if they were so anti stick,

another member mentions cars like the hellcat, M5, Panamera, all those cars are similar in that they are sedans but there are very real difference the hellcat is not a luxury car or Marque dodge buyers could be more open to manuals than Cadillac Buyers and have enough real buyers to make it a sustainable model, the M5 is European and thus the opposite of us over there nearly everyone knows how to drive manual and most do the automatic is the rare bird and because of this the M5 has always had a stick the engineering is already done and adding america to the stick pool just makes their economy of scale even better, Panamera is a Porsche as a Sports car company first they offer manuals in nearly everything they make it's part of what they do...very few, if any, of these reasons can be said about a Cadillac

lastly i sense an "if you build it they will come" message in your post and i can assure as the builder here if i doubled or more the number of stick shift V's on our lot there's only one outcome that would have occurred we would still have 2013 and 2014 V's around and i'd be fired
 

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I've been trying not to write this (especially here) but I must... I enjoy driving my automatic more than my manual. Especially at a track day, at the drag strip, or on the street.
(In my hands), my auto is faster in all cases, and I love that I can quietly and invisibly scoot quickly away from stoplights, without the revs and attention the manual attracts. The manual is a lot of fun on its own, but I don't prefer it, and I don't need that option on my V3.
 

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I've been trying not to write this (especially here) but I must... I enjoy driving my automatic more than my manual. Especially at a track day, at the drag strip, or on the street.
(In my hands), my auto is faster in all cases, and I love that I can quietly and invisibly scoot quickly away from stoplights, without the revs and attention the manual attracts. The manual is a lot of fun on its own, but I don't prefer it, and I don't need that option on my V3.
Thats awsome for you. But the point is... if they can even break even... They should make the Fing! Effort! and i suspect they would actually profit due to the little amount of wagons it took to turn a profit. Reward your loyalists Cadillac! Reward you loyalists!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I've been trying not to write this (especially here) but I must... I enjoy driving my automatic more than my manual. Especially at a track day, at the drag strip, or on the street.
(In my hands), my auto is faster in all cases, and I love that I can quietly and invisibly scoot quickly away from stoplights, without the revs and attention the manual attracts. The manual is a lot of fun on its own, but I don't prefer it, and I don't need that option on my V3.
No one's saying the auto shouldn't remain an option.

But for some of us, being able to select a gear of choice and blip the throttle brings a smiles to our faces (and keeps the left leg from atrophy). What's more, the joy of driving a manual is one thing that hasn't been outlawed on public roads.

Please just build it!
 
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