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1999 Cadillac Seville STS
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20 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So I have a weird one I cannot get to the bottom of.
85% of the time when i go to get petrol/gas I fill up,pay and then go to get in the car and go to fire it up and all it does is click(like a flat battery)
I get no bing bongs/chimes when I put the ignition on and when i go to turn the key it just clicks.
I have to sit there for 3 or 4 minutes trying it over and over and cycling through the gear selector(dicky neutral switch)and eventually it decides its ready to play again and fires right up with no issues at all.

Now today the missus went to fill up with gas and it kept her there for 15minutes or so.She was not a happy bunny!

Ive tried unlocking the filler flap with the manual cable to see if it something like that and it makes no difference.
Ive found if the car is half full and i fill it to the top its not so bad and i have a 15% chance of it being ok and starting.But if it goes from 49 miles till empty and i stick 3/4 of a tank in it pays up.

Ive never encountered anything like this before and its really getting on my nerves.Can anybody help me please?
For the record the security light does not flash when it is in a no start situation.

Thanks guys,hope you can help :)
I
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
Joined
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19,998 Posts
So I have a weird one I cannot get to the bottom of.
85% of the time when i go to get petrol/gas I fill up,pay and then go to get in the car and go to fire it up and all it does is click(like a flat battery)
I get no bing bongs/chimes when I put the ignition on and when i go to turn the key it just clicks.
I have to sit there for 3 or 4 minutes trying it over and over and cycling through the gear selector(dicky neutral switch)and eventually it decides its ready to play again and fires right up with no issues at all.

Now today the missus went to fill up with gas and it kept her there for 15minutes or so.She was not a happy bunny!

Ive tried unlocking the filler flap with the manual cable to see if it something like that and it makes no difference.
Ive found if the car is half full and i fill it to the top its not so bad and i have a 15% chance of it being ok and starting.But if it goes from 49 miles till empty and i stick 3/4 of a tank in it pays up.

Ive never encountered anything like this before and its really getting on my nerves.Can anybody help me please?
For the record the security light does not flash when it is in a no start situation.

Thanks guys,hope you can help :)
I
=======================
check for Diagnostic Trouble Codes -
if you don't know how - go here and read the ENTIRE post -

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/138257-how-pull-codes-dtcs.html

if you have any codes - post them here -
ALONG WITH THEIR DEFINITIONS -

------------------------

check for loose battery connections -

--------------------------

what is battery voltage when it won't start?

--------------------

have the battery load tested -
 

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1999 Cadillac Seville STS
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20 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Hi Basscatt thanks for the reply.

All battery connections have been removed,cleaned and checked,extra grounds added under rear seat and also in the engine bay,battery has been load tested and is actually brand new anyway.

It never does it any other time other than when i go to get fuel :/

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Oh and battery voltage is around 12.4v parked and 13.9v running :)

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Also no codes other than one for the compressor shut off valve.
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
Joined
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19,998 Posts
Hi Basscatt thanks for the reply.

All battery connections have been removed,cleaned and checked,extra grounds added under rear seat and also in the engine bay,battery has been load tested and is actually brand new anyway.

It never does it any other time other than when i go to get fuel :/

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Oh and battery voltage is around 12.4v parked and 13.9v running :)

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Also no codes other than one for the compressor shut off valve.
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I assume you also checked the battery cable at the starter solenoid?

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It never does it any other time other than when i go to get fuel :/
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm -:hmm:

so - the only thing that changes by fueling up the car -
is additional weight in the rear -

are you always going to the same gas station?

or does this happen at different gas stations?

is the surface of the ground on an incline - or flat?

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next time this happens -
try applying the brakes -
ignition ON -
shift from PARK all the way to LOW (1) -
then quickly/firmly back up to PARK -

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or try starting in NEUTRAL - with the brake applied - of course -

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1926 Model T street rod, 2000 Jaguar XJ8, 1999 Corvette.
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6,738 Posts
I think you have a failing starter. The short time it takes to fill the tank, allows the starter to become "heat soaked" Taking longer adding more fuel simply allows the starter to cool down. In an ideal world you could rap on the starter with a hammer when it won't rotate (just clicks) the engine to confirm this.
 

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1999 Cadillac Seville STS
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20 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
=============================

It never does it any other time other than when i go to get fuel :/
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
so - the only thing that changes by fueling up the car -
is additional weight in the rear -

are you always going to the same gas station?

or does this happen at different gas stations?

is the ground on an incline - or flat?

---------------

next time this happens -
try applying the brakes -
ignition ON -
shift from PARK all the way to LOW (1) -
then quickly/firmly back up to PARK -

-----------------

or try starting in NEUTRAL - with the brake applied - of course -
Yes just weight in the rear is the only difference,yet if i load the rear up heavily it makes no difference.
It happens at any gas station not just this BP one i usually frequent.
The forecourts at any petrol station are always flat over here.

Ive done the above before(cycling through the shifter trying to hit a sweet spot on the Park Neutral Safety switch) as the switch itself is a bit dodgy and once in a blue moon i have to start the car up in neutral as it wont in park.

When it is having a "moment" when filling up i constantly flick up from D>N>P>D>N>P and it clicks under the bonnet in the N and P position(which it should) and eventually it starts up after a varying length of time each time.
The only difference being she doesnt tend to chime when the ignition is turned on when she has just had fuel in her.

I was thinking it could be the PNSS but then why would it only do it when im filling up(bar the neutral starting issue once every now and again but it always starts up in neutral)

I was considering looking on alldata and seeing what the wires are that go to the switch and seeing if i could bridge them or trick them into thining the car is in park in any gear just as a trial to see if it makes a difference.

My missus has refused to fill it up ever again now so id ideally like to get it sorted.

Thanks again for the help Basscatt :)

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I think you have a failing starter. The short time it takes to fill the tank, allows the starter to become "heat soaked" Taking longer adding more fuel simply allows the starter to cool down. In an ideal world you could rap on the starter with a hammer when it won't rotate (just clicks) the engine to confirm this.
Thanks for the reply Carnut :)

Id say this was plausible be it not for the fact that it only does it when i fill up,if i say nip to the shop,park up for the same amount of time as i would if i fill up,the car is fine :/

Do they have an emergancy fuel pressure switch in the tank that cuts power off should the tank not be able to vent,due to expansion with me adding fuel?

Im clutching at straws i guess lol
 

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2002.5 F55 CORSA STS, 2014 Explorer XLT FWD
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70,380 Posts
No tank pressure switch that would affect the fuel pump. There is a fuel tank pressure sensor that sends info to the EVAP system, but that is one of the controls for warmed-up steady state cruise initiation of canister purge as well as emissions system monitoring.
 

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1999 Cadillac Seville STS
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20 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Bugger,thats that option out of the window then.
So ive just done another scan and it has come up with P1520(History)Gear Indicator System

A quick look on Alldata reveals it points to he PNSS.However i doubt this will cure the fuel fill up non start issue :(
So ive gone and ordered one from Rock Auto anyway just in case.

I doubt this will sort my problem when filling up though :/
 

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2010 DTS
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87,306 Posts
I have to sit there for 3 or 4 minutes trying it over and over and cycling through the gear selector(dicky neutral switch)and eventually it decides its ready to play again and fires right up with no issues at all.
Do you get any response when you hold the key in the crank position and then cycle the shifter through the gear positions?

That said, I think I'd put my money is with Carnut.
 

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1926 Model T street rod, 2000 Jaguar XJ8, 1999 Corvette.
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6,738 Posts
How in the HE.... can it be a fuel pump? The poster says it just clicks. That points to faulty starter, or faulty battery cables or faulty NSS. The car does not know where it is nor does it know fuel is being added! I would check AllData to see if the NSS is adjustable or requires a drill bit be inserted into it to properly align the contacts.
 

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1999 Cadillac Seville STS
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20 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I have to sit there for 3 or 4 minutes trying it over and over and cycling through the gear selector(dicky neutral switch)and eventually it decides its ready to play again and fires right up with no issues at all.
Do you get any response when you hold the key in the crank position and then cycle the shifter through the gear positions?

That said, I think I'd put my money is with Carnut.
Hi mate. When I go to crank and keep it turned, all the lights on the dash go out and I get a single click, if I keep it in the crank position and cycle through the gears I get silence until I reach neutral or Park and then I hear an audible click from under the bonnet which sounds like the starter solenoid very gently throwing the arm out but not actually turning the engine. No cranking happens at all.
Then if I keep doing this for a couple of minutes time then the thing all of a sudden decides to kick into life.
To be fair when she's on song it does turn the engine over fairly slowly but it only takes one revolution before it fires up.

See id normally go towards the starter motor being tired but I just can't understand why it's just when I go to get fuel!

Thanks all for your help so far. :)
 

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1999 Cadillac Seville STS
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20 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
How in the HE.... can it be a fuel pump? The poster says it just clicks. That points to faulty starter, or faulty battery cables or faulty NSS. The car does not know where it is nor does it know fuel is being added! I would check AllData to see if the NSS is adjustable or requires a drill bit be inserted into it to properly align the contacts.

Thanks Carnut. I've not gone as far as to check the fuel pump/pressure yet as when its running it's sweet as a nut with no surging etc.
With regards the NSS there is a small amount of adjustment you can do to them with a special tool to set the switch to neutral but ive opted to go for a new one as they come pre set to neutral and i can just swap it out I belive.
Also got some plugs while I was at it as you guys seem to get everything cheap compared to us in the UK.
Same spark plug I've just got from Rock Auto for £1.98 each is £9.32 in England!
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
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19,998 Posts
Hi mate. When I go to crank and keep it turned, all the lights on the dash go out and I get a single click, if I keep it in the crank position and cycle through the gears I get silence until I reach neutral or Park and then I hear an audible click from under the bonnet which sounds like the starter solenoid very gently throwing the arm out but not actually turning the engine. No cranking happens at all.
Then if I keep doing this for a couple of minutes time then the thing all of a sudden decides to kick into life.
To be fair when she's on song it does turn the engine over fairly slowly but it only takes one revolution before it fires up.

See id normally go towards the starter motor being tired but I just can't understand why it's just when I go to get fuel!

Thanks all for your help so far. :)
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if I keep it in the crank position and cycle through the gears
I get silence until I reach neutral or Park
and then I hear an audible click from under the bonnet
which sounds like the starter solenoid
very gently throwing the arm out
but not actually turning the engine.
that sounds like a bad starter -
 

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1999 Cadillac Seville STS
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Discussion Starter #15
I completely agree. But why would it only do it when I get fuel? This is the one thing making me think it's something else? Lol.
The cost of getting one isn't bad but the shipping is pig :(
 

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98 eldo/KD54 w/N37,T96,QA1,D55,DS3,U1Z. U3R next
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2,125 Posts
But why would it only do it when I get fuel?

How low are you driving it before refueling.....Fuel powers the vehicle and keeps the pump cool. The pump possibly could on the way out.......

Looking at the starter circuit, the neutral safety switch could be out of adjustment, but unlikely. It starts most of the time. OR you can have an issue with the starter relay #1 or Starter relay #2, and then there's the starter itself as noted.
 

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Master of the Dark Art of Diagnostics
2003 DHS - two-2002 DHS, 2003 SLS, 1995 Sedan DeVille, 1989 Coupe DeVille
Joined
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19,998 Posts
I completely agree. But why would it only do it when I get fuel? This is the one thing making me think it's something else? Lol.
The cost of getting one isn't bad but the shipping is pig :(
============================

one last thing you can try -
from carnut's post #5 -
In an ideal world you could rap on the starter with a hammer when it won't rotate

in our case -
we can't get a hammer near the starter -
however -
you could thread a 1/2" wooden dowel rod down to the starter -
and rap the dowel rod -
 

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1999 Cadillac Seville STS
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Discussion Starter #19
But why would it only do it when I get fuel?

How low are you driving it before refueling.....Fuel powers the vehicle and keeps the pump cool. The pump possibly could on the way out.......

Looking at the starter circuit, the neutral safety switch could be out of adjustment, but unlikely. It starts most of the time. OR you can have an issue with the starter relay #1 or Starter relay #2, and then there's the starter itself as noted.
Then lowest it ever gets is when it says 40miles till empty.
If I fill up with the engine running it's very slow to fill and spits back at me and makes the petrol pump cut off.
Are both starter relays under the bonnet?
Are they the same? Would it be worth swapping them around?
Appreciate all the help guys :)
 

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Super Moderator
2010 DTS
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87,306 Posts
if I keep it in the crank position and cycle through the gears I get silence until I reach neutral or Park and then I hear an audible click from under the bonnet which sounds like the starter solenoid very gently throwing the arm out but not actually turning the engine.
I think that just strengthens Carnut's diagnosis.
 
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