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Discussion Starter #1
I wanted to know how well you thought cadillac (namely seville and deville) stacks up against the competition, that is, other luxuary cars. Here is a brief list of cars that i thought of off the top of my head, and all these are assumed to be latest model unless otherwise stated. There is going to be many cars with higher price, because i think that cadillac can compare with these

Lexus LS400/430
MB S class
Lincoln Town car
Audi A8
Jaguar XJ series
BMW 5/7 series
Infiniti Q45
Lexus LS 400/430

These are just a few that i have thought of, please include more if you think there are.

Overall, i think a cadillac is very comprable in the area of performance, although there are some where it is faster and some where it is slower. As far as comfort, I think that there is almost nothing better than a cadillac. Sure, there will be other "conveniences" (like power headrests and pointless stuff like that) in other cars, but overall comfort is second to none. The only thing i see them lacking in is build quality, although i have to say that they have improved over the past 5 years or so. I think that is what seperates them. Back in the 80s when cadillac made their "turn for the worst", I think that took a lot off their name. If you want to be known by what you drive and you have money, they see that in a lexus or BMW moreso than in a cadillac.
 

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Hmm.. I don't really think Lexus is looked at as higher class than Cadillac.. BMW and Mercedes - certainly..

Lexus GS300/430 - Comparable to the STS
Lexus wins in performance - Cadillac wins in appearance - Lexus wins in reliability (Lexus beats EVERYONE in reliability) - Lexus may win slightly in comfort

MB S class - I don't know enough about this car

Lincoln Town car - Comparable to the DTS
Cadillac wins all

Audi A8 - I don't know enough about this car

Jaguar XJ series - I don't know enough about this car

BMW 5/7 series - Comparable to the STS/DTS
I still don't know how the new Caddy's feel, but I'll assume the BMWs handle much better. Comfort goes to Cadillac - Reliability probably goes to BWM - Appearance goes to Cadillac

Infiniti Q45 - Comparable to the DTS - I don't know enough about this car

Lexus LS 400/430 - Comparable to the DTS - I think handling goes to Cadillac - Appearance goes to Cadillac - Reliability goes to Lexus (always does) - Comfort may go to Lexus
 

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I'm afraid that I disagree with some of the vehicles you list as being competition for Cadillac.
On price alone, you're way out on several cars. And price is one BIG point that is VERY important to luxury car owners. Many don't want to be seen as FROOGLE. And don't forget that when you have a few extra grand to play with on a car, you can start doing some of the things that add significantly to the cars' luxury "feel" and appearance. Example: replacing plastic wood with REAL wood, replacing leather "seating areas" with leather seats, deeper pile carpet, more sound-proofing, higher output engines, etc, etc.
Bearing that in mind, I think that out of your list, only a couple actually should be seen as TRUE competitors for the Cadillac.
1. Lincoln Town Car
a. Cadillac wins on performance.
b. Styling is a toss-up.
c. Lincoln wins on RWD
d. Lincoln wins on interior room
e. Build quality is also a toss-up
f. Lincoln wins on price.
g. Cadillac wins on technology.
2. Infiniti Q45
a. Infiniti wins on performance
b. Cadillac wins on price
c. Cadillac wins on MPG
d. Cadillac wins on interior room
e. Build quality is a toss-up
f. Infiniti wins on RWD
3. BMW "5" series (7-series is way out of Cadillac class)
a. BMW wins on virtually anything except interior room,
end of story
IMO, all the other cars listed are well out of reach for Cadillac Deville as far as competition. Yeah, there are SOME points and features that COULD be compared but in all fairness to Cadillac, they are either far beyond Deville on price-point, or in overall quality. Cadillac has established a niche with it's cars either due to content, or pricing (or both) and has narrowed it's "direct" competition by doing so.
Bottom line; I'm not saying that Cadillac CAN'T compete with these cars, I'm saying that they have CHOSEN not to. I think it's kind of a "chicken-shit" way of doing business. If you want to be taken seriously by the competition, stand toe-to-toe with them and prepare to be judged.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I have ridden in a BMW 7 series, and in fact my next door neighbor has one. I dont think that it is much more comfortable than the STS. I think the seats are kind of hard in the BMW, and the ride is kind of rough, even for a car that handles like it does. I think cadillac has some competition for them, and if they dont now if they get their act together they will
 

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I've got to agree with Wes on one point here..The BMW's are about as comfortable to ride in as a park bench! They ride far to rough to me to really qualify as a luxury car. And the seats are so hard they might as well be made of wood. My other observation about them is they have an oddly sterile feel to them...They kind of lack warmth/personality. There's something missing that's hard to put you're finger on!
 

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I agree with both of you. BMW's are absolutely uncomfortable.. But, the people who own them swear by them. They like the hard "indestructable" feel. It's totally and completely not me...
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I agree, in a BMW you just cant get to get in the "groove". I mean what it really feels like is there is a little layer of foam that is really squishy and once you get past that its hard.

As far as the other cars, i think that if cadillac WANTED to be a highline luxuary car, they could. They have it all, styling, performance, and luxuary. Now if they could set their build standards higher, they would be world class. I think they get just enough to get by.

About some of those other cars, they were just a list that i came up with off the top of my head. I did no research whatsoever. I dont know anything about the Lexus GS430, so i cant make an opinion.
 

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1. Lincoln Town Car
a. Cadillac wins on performance.
b. Styling is a toss-up.
c. Lincoln wins on RWD
d. Lincoln wins on interior room
e. Build quality is also a toss-up
f. Lincoln wins on price.
g. Cadillac wins on technology.
2. Infiniti Q45
a. Infiniti wins on performance
b. Cadillac wins on price
c. Cadillac wins on MPG
d. Cadillac wins on interior room
e. Build quality is a toss-up
f. Infiniti wins on RWD
3. BMW "5" series (7-series is way out of Cadillac class)
a. BMW wins on virtually anything except interior room,
end of story
Full size luxury
Lincoln town car
DTS wins in every category except interior room measurements

Infinity Q45
DTS wins price, comfort, mpg, ride quality, cust service, and reliability
Tied in technology
Q45 wins in performance

S class
DTS wins price, mpg, technology
Almost everything is close to each other
S class wins performance due to its v12 6l engine

7 series
DTS wins price, mpg, ride quality, comfort
Tied in technology and reliability
7 series wins performance, handling

mid size
5 series
STS wins price, mpg, ride quality, comfort, interior room.
5 series wins in performance (thanks to its 395hp v8 in m5 trim), handling
 

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Okay, I wanna play, too. Here are my perceptions:

Lexus LS400/430--NO but it's not supposed to win this one.

MB S class--NO, but it's not supposed to win this one either.

Lincoln Town car--YES! not even close!

Audi A8--YES! but Audi is making great strides. Check again in 2007.

Jaguar XJ series--overall, YES! but those Jags are damn fine looking! But Ford will screw that up.

BMW 5/7 series--over the 5 year ownership experience, YES! the Bimmer ride SUCKS, but it's a beautiful thing at 130mph.

Infiniti Q45--NO, but it's not supposed to win this one either.

Acura 3.5 RL--YES! The RL is bland--a Japanese Buick LeSabre.

Here's the problem--depreciation. Perception has become reality. It's going to take Cadillac another 10 years like the past 10 years to erase the damage done by the 8-6-4 and HT4100, the Cimarron, and those nasty FWD DeVilles they put out from '85 to '91.
 

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I'm with KC. Matter of fact, he must have read some of my old posts ;)
First of all, I cannot compare a FWD sedan to a RWD one in this class. The full-boat luxury, and ultra-luxury classes are the domain of the RWD cars. Surely you all know that to be true. Even Cadillac admits it, as evidenced by their shift BACK to RWD. All I can say is it's about time!
Although I think the BMW and Mercedes are far superior cars in more ways than one, I still don't really like them. They are as precise as a surgical tool, and have the personality of an operating room. This is what has ALWAYS seperated the American cars from the rest of the world. The rest of the world always does things in automotive design because it makes sense, it improves efficiency, or for some other totally LOGICAL reason. BORING!!!
Americans do things in their cars because it FEELS right, or it LOOKS right, or just for HELL of it!!
I mean, think about it guys, America's the only country that in this day and age would bring out the Excursion, or the Hummer, or suggest to put a 1000HP V16 in a car. I mean does ANY of what we do make sense? HELL NO!
So, can you REALLY compare American cars to the rest of the world? Probably not, we have a totally different idea of what luxury is. That's why American cars have such a tough time in comparison tests. Before the American car is even test driven, it's got to apologize for being American. And frankly I'm tired of it, we should stop trying to BE something we're not. American luxury cars keep trying to be more WORLDLY. That's just another way of saying you're ashamed of being American.

I LOVE MY AMERICAN MADE CADILLAC BECAUSE IT SCREAMS EXCESS. I LOVE IT BECAUSE I CAN CRUISE AROUND IN A SOFT LEATHER SEAT, SURROUNDED BY WHAT FEELS LIKE ACRES OF UPHOLSTERY, AND CD-QUALITY, SUB-WOOFER ENHANCED ROCK MUSIC, PULL UP TO A GAS PUMP, DUMP $40 OF HIGH-TEST IN HER, AND GO OUT AND PISS IT AWAY BY DOING SMOKIE BURN-OUTS AND DONUTS IF I WANT.
NOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? HELL NO, I DO IT, AND I LOVE IT, 'CAUSE IT'S FUN!!!!!!
END OF STORY!!!!!!!!
 

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OK!......NEWS FLASH!

I agree with katshot on that last statement 100%!! He might not know it yet...But he just articulated why I will ALWAYS ride my HARLEY-DAVIDSONS!!

Way to go DUDE MAN!:banana:
 

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KEY WORD.....HAD!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
IMO, if I were to buy used, if i couldnt get a caddy, I would go import. Face it, up until about 98 there really werent any good american luxuary cars, with the exception of a lincoln MKVIII. On the other hand, MB, BMW and other imports have had this luxuary thing down for a long time. But I wouldnt buy one new. Why?, they're too expensive, not comfortable, and moreover NOT AMERICAN. What wouldnt you want to get american, is american not good enough, so you go GERMAN?????? That is pretty lame.

Besides, imports physically arent any better. Their name has just become more and more popular. If you want to look really rich, you dont drive a cadillac, you go get yourself a BENZ or bimmer. But you are really saying that, again, American isnt good enough.

Can you compare Cadillac and other imports, YES, but you have to take in mind that they are different. The germans have different philosophies when building cars, which is to have it perfect, and for it to be effecient, and TO MAKE SENSE. I know this is just reiterating what kat said, but I am going to say it again. American cars, if you really think about it, dont make sense. They have huge engines, guzzle gas, etc. BUT THIS IS THE WAY A CAR IS SUPPOSED TO BE. It isnt supposed to be perfect, and symetrical. It is supposed to feel RIGHT. In order for that to be achieved, there are going to have to be some wacky ideas.

I think ever since chrysler teamed up with MB, it has all gone downhill. Why, because they arent american. Same goes with the Catera, it is basically a MB 320 with the wreath. I konw the engine was made by opel, but who in america drives an opel?
 

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Sal Collaziano said:
What about the Lexus GS430 and the STS? I thought they were competing... The LS430 is about $70k...

base price for a LS 430 is 55k..with option packages of 2k, 7k and 12k. The car is a great deal at 55k especially if you plan on keeping it a while.

As far as the other cars except for the lincoln and the Jag, I would have to say OVERALL they are all better than Deville/Seville. Some because they just cost a lot more, so they can offer more
S-class/A8...some because of perception Q45...some because of Reliability/resale LS430/GS430...and some because they are actually better...BMW 5, before you guys tell me im crazy keep in mind i did buy a Seville, although i will admit i will be looking for more out of my next car so hopefully cadillacs new products will really step it up. Oh and although i like infiniti, the fact that they are essentially a french company would cause me to never buy one..we dont need friends like the french..imo
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Brett, this is like comparing apples and oranges. American cars are built with different mindsets than imports. So to say that imports are BETTER is incorrect, but DIFFERENT is correct. Like what was said earlier, imports are designed to be perfect, and to be machines. But american cars have that special warmth or something, something you cant get with a import. Sure, they may offer more features, but they are all things that you dont need, like power headrests, seats that bend in the middle, etc. All that is fine and great, but if it feels like your sitting in an operating room, that aint gonna cut it. You want a car that is going to be comfortable, and that you ENJOY DRIVING. Sure, BMW and lexus may have better features, but they will never have what american cars have....... CHARACTER
 

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I find it odd that you would dismiss my argument because im comparing "apples to oranges" when it was YOU who posed the question Cadillac vs. ? in the first place, even odder is i agree with you that people who buy cadillacs and people who buy bmw's/MB's/Audi's/etc are very often looking for different things, although i disagree that a bmw has no character. maybe i missed the point of this thread but your original post compared these cars on their relative virtues...not on the amount of character each possessed...that being said my seville has power headrests and it is a useless option:)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
well to be honest, the origional intent was to compare that, but after thinking about it they are only similar is that they are cars that possess engines. I think that maybe i phrased my post wrong.

I didnt mean that BMW doesnt have character, they do, but a different kind. They have a perfectionist appearance, and that is how the desigers wanted it to be. Power headrests are pointless options, but these "pointles" options should not be used when comparing cars. There are some features that cadillac has over all these other cars. Can i name one off hand, NO, but there is.

What I was trying to point out, is if cadillac gets their act together and starts trying to compete with these cars, THEY CAN! They have more potential than any other luxuary car, IMO. Granted, they have made great strides since the 80s, but they still have work to do. I think now, they are just doing what they can to get by, and they are definitely not making the best automobiles that they can.
 

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The problem is that they HAVE been trying to compete with those imports. Unfortunately, Cadillac is NOT going to be able to beat them at the game they are best at, building a rock-solid, fast, great handling, smooth-ass car.
So why not just try to satisfy the American market and let one of the other GM brands that have product more in line with the European market go after it.
Oh and BTW, you forgot to mention "Night-Vision" as one of the most useless options.
 
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