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I'm a Cadillac Fanatic!
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How do these two companies add up?

Lincoln Town Car vs Cadillac DTS
Lincoln Nothing vs Cadillac STS
Lincoln Navigator vs Cadillac Escalade (and family)
Lincoln Aviator vs Cadillac SRX
Lincoln LS8 vs Cadillac CTS
Lincoln Nothing vs Cadillac XLR

So how do the two add-up? Which is focusing more on a youthful market? Who has the advantage?
 

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Sal Collaziano said:
How do these two companies add up?

Lincoln Town Car vs Cadillac DTS
Lincoln LS8 vs Cadillac STS
Lincoln Navigator vs Cadillac Escalade (and family)
Lincoln Aviator vs Cadillac SRX
Lincoln Nothing vs Cadillac CTS
Lincoln Nothing vs Cadillac XLR

So how do the two add-up? Which is focusing more on a youthful market? Who has the advantage?
I would make these corrections;
Lincoln LS6 vs CTS
Lincoln Town Car vs nothing

My opinion is that until both brands have upgraded all their sedans to world class standards, then neither of them needs a $70,000 sports car to bring traffic into their show room.

By the way, has anyone ever went to a new car dealer just to look at the 'sports car' you couldn't afford and then spur of the moment purchased a family sedan before you left? I haven't either.

I wait until the LA Auto Show to view cars I can't afford. I also look at all the family cars only to realize they all suck. I leave the show wishing that I was living in Australia!
 

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Sal Collaziano said:
How do these two companies add up?

Lincoln Town Car vs Cadillac DTS
Lincoln Nothing vs Cadillac STS
Lincoln Navigator vs Cadillac Escalade (and family)
Lincoln Aviator vs Cadillac SRX
Lincoln LS8 vs Cadillac CTS
Lincoln Nothing vs Cadillac XLR

So how do the two add-up? Which is focusing more on a youthful market? Who has the advantage?
It should be this....
LS V6 vs. CTS
LS V8 vs. DTS
Town Car vs. STS
Navigator vs. Escalade
Aviator vs. SRX
Continental *do they even make this car anymore?* vs. nothing
nothing vs. XLR *I think Lincoln has no need to make a car like the XLR*
 

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The thing with Lincoln is that its put in a weird position. Ford has bought Jaguar, so if Cadillac really goes upscale, the Jag is what ford will use to counter Caddy. So, Lincoln sorta finds itself without a mission. Ford is the "every car" and Mercury is the "step up" car while Lincoln had always been Ford's premier brand. Lincoln vs Buick? IMO, Lincoln is waaaaaaay above Buick. What now?
 

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Sal Collaziano said:
Why the Lincoln Town Car vs Nothing?
Big RWD car that can be converted into the longest limo you could ever require would be a start.

And how many black DTSs do you see at the airport picking up passengers?

For the average consumer, maybe they cross shop them, but doubtful. The Lincoln Town Car retained the 'classic' American car luxury styling. In my opinion, the DTS went with a generic design.

The DTS does have a better representation at the car rental counter though. Probably due to it's smaller size as compared to the Town Car.

Kat could add much more to this.
 

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I recently test drove a Navigatr and an Escalde on the same day. My wife and I were both shocked at how many more features the navigator had.

Power folding rear seat, retractable running boards, cooled seats, great interior

The escalade interior sucked

The only thing that saves the escalade is the Engine, its not that much slower than my SLS, but the Navigator felt SUV slow. If someone is choosing between the 2, its probably a tough choice
 

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I like Jags. IMO, for the past 30 years or so, the Jag has consistently been the best looking car on the road. I'm going to test drive one before I make my final decision on the Caddy this fall.

But I agree, the Town Car is not direct competition for the DTS or DHS. Lincoln runs ads where they compare their dimensions to the DeVille, but in the areas they win, it's only by 1/10th of an inch or something. Their only real advantage, IMO, is on the RWD thing.

The Apples to Apples comparison between Ford and GM luxury cars should be between the Town Car and the Park Avenue.
 

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Cadillac abandoned the battle for "full-size" sedan supremacy when it discontinued the Fleetwood. The Deville is NOT a direct competitor for the Town Car except in the minds of Cadillac's marketing team.
The Deville CAN in fact be made into a limo that rivals anything that is currently supported by Lincoln although the long cars are still plagued by chassis flex. I did some work with Cadillac a couple years ago and at that time, they still had no solution to the issue.
Lincoln is using the LS to compete against both the CTS AND STS and is being fairly successful at it. Face it, the CTS and STS have a rather over-lapped market now and that's probably why the STS is going away. Let's just hope that when it comes back, it's significantly seperated from the CTS.
 

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My friends mom bought a 2003 Navigator fully loaded and had problems with the airbag suspension. She said it started going crazy on her one day and it was like a lowrider and the front one's would fill up then deflate and the rear one's would do the same. I remember hearing that Lincoln wa shaving a problem with the air suspension on the Navigator's as well but I may be wrong. The thing that sucks with the Lincoln's is that you have to turn off the air ride suspension when you put it up on a lift while the Caddy's you don't have too and a lot of people doon't know that with the Lincoln's which causes the air bag's to explode and then your spending a lot of money replacing them.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The Lincoln LS is cheered about in every car magazine on this planet and Mars. But, they also all agree that reliability does not exist...

When the CTS-v comes out, we can compare IT to the LS8, otherwise - not really...
 

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I would take everything cadillac (and IMO I think that cadillac has a better product), except for the CTS over the LS..... I like the styling of the LS a little better......
 

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scourge said:
The thing with Lincoln is that its put in a weird position. Ford has bought Jaguar, so if Cadillac really goes upscale, the Jag is what ford will use to counter Caddy. So, Lincoln sorta finds itself without a mission. Ford is the "every car" and Mercury is the "step up" car while Lincoln had always been Ford's premier brand. Lincoln vs Buick? IMO, Lincoln is waaaaaaay above Buick. What now?
I'd love to fix Ford. There is no market study needed.

I would position Jaguar as the higher end sporting refined european luxury vehicle. I would target the European makes. $35,000-$90,000.

I would position Lincoln as the American luxury muscle vehicle. I would target the Japanese and Cadillac. $25,000-$60,000

I would then position Aston Martin to take on Bentley, Rolls Royce and Maseratti. It would be exclusive luxury with heritage. $90,000+

Ford could then take Lincoln into Lexus IS300 territory and take Aston Martin up into Rolls Royce and Ferrari territory.

GM wouldn't be able to compete against Ford if all they have is Cadillac. You can't cover the 30,000-300,000 with the same brand. As nice as the Cadillac 16 concept was, and as cool as it could be, no way will very many people pay $150,000 for it. It'd have to be $75,000 tops.

And we haven't even used Volvo or Range Rover yet! So look out Hummer, Escalade and SRX.

But it won't happen. Ford will sell Volvo (all Volvos fault), Aston Martin will linger as a step child with no higher aspiration than Porsche (you could choose a lessor goal) and Range Rover won't supply military vehicles again (so where does the enginerring money come from?).
 

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elwesso said:
I would take everything cadillac (and IMO I think that cadillac has a better product), except for the CTS over the LS..... I like the styling of the LS a little better......
I liked the LS when it came out. Right idea and the right time. I still like it, although the CTS-V is all I'd settle for now.

I tried to get my parents to buy a LS. The dealer treated them like they were Ford customers. So they went to Lexus and leased a ES300. Whatever. At least they like it.

I asked my mom recently how she liked her car. After telling me how much she loved it, she told me she thought the style of the LS looked like an old car.

You know what? I have to agree. Sit the CTS and the LS next to each other, and the LS looks like it could have been made any year since 1985.
 

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Interesting ideas about the Ford divisions, I would agree with MOST of what you said. And as far as the LS styling, I would agree that next to the CTS, it may look dated but to my eye still way better looking.
Actually, after reading everyone's take on the LS, I went out and test drove one. Matter of fact, I just got back. I test drove the LS and a Marauder back to back. I do like the LS but at close to $50K (equipped the way I would buy it), it's more than I would want to pay for it. Maybe that's why you see so many of the standard models with V6's running around, and so few of the "Premium Sport" editions w/V8. Bottom line, I think I like the Marauder but it does lack bottom end grunt and the usual comfort and convenience "gadgets" that I've become accustom to.
The real reason I had to mention this was that I saw the absolute WORST case of bastardizing I've ever seen in a new car by a dealer. Would you believe that they had a Marauder on the showroom floor with a landau vinyl top (with chrome trim) with big-ass brass badges on the sail panels that read "Mercury Grand Marquis Signature Edition". And as if that wasn't bad enough, they had installed those big wide chrome fender flair moldings too. I honestly felt sorry for the car. :helpless:
 
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Actually, fixing Ford and GM isn't really that hard to do on paper. The necessary changes are quite logical. But, its getting the unions and the old guard to go along with these changes is the rub.



HotRodSaint said:
I liked the LS when it came out. Right idea and the right time. I still like it, although the CTS-V is all I'd settle for now.

I think Caddy's new wdge styling is too polarizing. Its either love it or hate it. The LS is more conservative and seems to have an easier time appealing to different markets.

I tried to get my parents to buy a LS. The dealer treated them like they were Ford customers. So they went to Lexus and leased a ES300.
And this is the rub that never seems to leave domestic car company's dealerships. I am also a member at a Corvette board and these people bitch and moan about their poor treatment by dealers when they drop $50k on a car. Many just keep going back and taking it. By contrast, I had a benz dealer bend over backwards for me when I looked at a CSport Coupe an I told him that I wasn't going to buy a car that day, that I was still in college and that I was still looking. We talked about an hour and he was goin to let me test drive any Benz on the lot except the AMG models. They were a class act all the way around - people and the building.

Toyota knows how to treat its customers too. When you drop that kind of money at a dealer, they need to treat you right. But, it seems there is just enough people to take the abuse and come back begging for more at domestic dealers. I guess they see no need to change. If Caddy wants to go upscale, they can change the car all they want, but if their dealers have Cavaliers parked next to Caddys and dealers treat Caddy customers like Cavalier customers, sales aren't really going to skyrocket.
 

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scourge said:
I had a benz dealer bend over backwards for me when I looked at a CSport Coupe an I told him that I wasn't going to buy a car that day, that I was still in college and that I was still looking.
If you walk on a Porsche lot wearing shorts and a t-shirt, the sales guy will come straight out and greet you and treat you like a king.

If you walk on a domestic car lot, the sales guy will qualify you from behind his desk looking out the window and come to the conclusion that you can't afford his car.

You have to really want a domestic vehicle to put up with their crap.
 

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Unfortunately, its the american way!
 
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