I just want to chime in again even though you told me you didn't want my thoughts.

Two things-
One-The car jumps when you jump the relay. My thought is your Ignition is bad. You replaced it. I asked you why. From what I recall, you never said why. That could give you the symptoms you have now. Do you have the original? Can you put the OEM back in? If not and you want to throw parts at the car, buy an OEM AC Delco or whatever brand made it originally and put it in.

Two-IMO you are at the point where you have to take it somewhere. You have been at this since January. I am not trying to be mean. You could even pay a mobile mechanic to at least come tell you what is wrong. That would save yourself and everyone else time. You are still in the diagnostic phase. You have not yet arrived at the part to replace or the broken wire or whatever it may be. Yet you want to keep chasing other parts such as the throttle body, your pedal code, and random other codes that are not related to the issue at hand, your car will not start.

My .02

 

the thread that would not die......... ( where is Elvira ? )

 

/me heads to the corner........._|

 

If you can start the car by jumping a couple terminals to the starter relay, then you plug in the relay and get a click when trying to start it, that would not indicate a good relay to me. If swapping relays doesn't change anything then you just need to diagnose why the starter relay is not getting the proper signal to activate it. You are oh so close now.

 

First of all I respect everyones opinion, thanks for following this thread.
To me the fact that the Check Engine light is still on says there is something serious going on. When all else fails, get out the code reader again. Try to see what has changed. I too, am thinking we are real close.
Thinking back to how this all started:
I was driving it and there was no problem. Then it started the clicking a single time and then finally it would start cranking and it would start. It was degrading as I drove it. Finally it stopped clicking and it would not start.
What have we seen that degrades like that.

• The rust degrades connections, so we repaired all grounds.
• The fuses degrade, bad connection. Curiously, the fuses all look good but they have built up corrosion that is almost invisible. Some fuses were loose, but still appeared to be clean
• That seems to say that any connection could be the problem.
• The dealer charged me $200/hour to diagnose and estimated it would take 10 hours to find the problem. Then, they would make the repair.
• I still have the dealers repair notes, he drew a childlike drawing of what he found but never mentioned any code reading. Huh! What was he doing?
• Any other thoughts.

 

My son ventured a guess that maybe the new ignition switch and the anti theft device are not compatible. I argued that the antitheft device is independent of the Ignition switch. It stops theft because it is checking to see if the key matches the anti theft device.
Any ideas?

 

FWIW all my vehicles have a check engine light on and I just drive them. I don't consider them serious at all. I can't even get annoyed because I don't even notice them. I usually investigate them at inspection time to get them to go off, then they can stay on the rest of the year. They just want to nickel and dime me to death.

 

there is no way anyone can tell you that diagnosis is going to take 10 hours (it is possible that it may take that but to say that up front they are scammers not mechanics,) at that point you tell them that i will take my car to someone who knows what they are doing thanx. there has to be another shop you can take it to?
a shop with a good scanner can diagnose a fair bit rather quickly.
none of the scanner data that you are getting is reliable, you said no class2 codes yet you still have no fuel data which is on the class2 system.
it may be a matter of the ecm being toast but without proper equipment and testing we aren't going to get there.
i think you need to search out a mechanic with a high end scanner that can put it thru some tests.
after all this time it is going to be a downer if you find that it was/is the ecm and a 10 minute diagnostic test could have shown it.

find a better garage/mechanic there are plenty out there

i don't feel we are any closer, you are in the same position you were in when this thread started.....sorry to burst your bubble
i think you are at the end of your ability to test further and outside help is required.
i myself think you have an ecm issue, that may have been further complicated now with all the tinkering in so many different areas...... as you said you had power distribution codes recently.
i'm not sure what to tell you to check as your test equipment is limited to a multi-meter, i would suggest a garage to check the ecm.
pay no attention to the codes you get from the rental scanners from the parts stores as they are likely not reliable at this point.
sorry for the long winded rant
if all else fails put a switch in to jump the relay and be on your way, but i suspect there are other issues likely with the ecm.....it is likely 20 years old

 

I love long winded rants.
I ran a scanner again to see if anything changed. All the codes point at the things I replaced/ repaired. I think I need to take it out on the highway and drive it a bit and see if i can elimminate some old codes.
I'll keep you up to date.

 

The new codes are directly related to the repairs I already made, so I think I need to get the car out on the road and drive to see if I can clear the codes

• P2108 What repairs can fix the P2108 code? Repairs that can fix this trouble code would include: Replacing the throttle position sensor or its circuitry. Replacing the throttle body motor or entire throttle body depending on the build style

• How do I reset the throttle actuator control module?
• The easiest way to reset your throttle position sensor is to unhook the negative cable from your battery for up to five minutes or to remove the fuse for your engine control module.

• P0106 is a generic diagnostic trouble code related to the manifold absolute pressure sensor (also called the MAP sensor, Barometric Pressure Sensor, or Baro sensor.) It indicates that your MAP circuit is suffering from an incorrect voltage output range or that there's an engine performance issue.

• How do I reset my MAP sensor?
• Check the MAF sensor and clean it out with dry air. Then put it on and disconnect the battery for 12 minutes and hook it up. This will clear the computer to want to relearn itself. Then drive the vehicle and see what happens.

• P2122 code indicates that the powertrain control network (PCM) has detected an issue with the throttle position sensor (TPS), specifically that the sensor is running too low of a voltage. Most vehicles set the lower limit at . 17 volts.

• The easiest way to reset your throttle position sensor is to unhook the negative cable from your battery for up to five minutes or to remove the fuse for your engine control module.

• P2138 The P2138 is defined as “Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch “D”/”E” Voltage Correlation.” It is triggered when the vehicle's Engine Control Module (ECM) detects that the signals from the two throttle position sensors or the two accelerator pedal position sensors don't correlate.

• The easiest way to reset your throttle position sensor is to unhook the negative cable from your battery for up to five minutes or to remove the fuse for your engine control module.
• Make sure that the accelerator pedal is fully released. Turn ignition switch “ON” and wait at least 2 seconds. Turn ignition switch “OFF” wait at least 10 seconds. Turn ignition switch “ON” and wait at least 2 seconds.

• P0641 The P0641 code, one of the problems within the engine control module (ECM) or PCM, indicates that there's a very specific voltage problem within the 5-volt reference circuit, which can indicate an issue within the overall electronic system.
• P2067 The most likely fix for this particular trouble code is the replacement of the fuel pump, or, if you're lucky, the fuel level sensor itself.
• P0615 is set by the PCM when it detects a general malfunction in the starter relay circuit.
  • Replacing the ignition switch Replacing blown fuse or fuse-able link (if applicable) Cleaning corrosion from connectors Repairing or replacing wiring Repairing or replacing battery cables or terminals Replacing the starter relay.

 

outside of the no start issue.......P0641....deal with that first as the sensors require the 5 volt signal and if they aren't getting a proper signal the sensors may report an error.
2067 may be your no fuel reading but there are other issues that may possibly be causing this
EDIT........2067 checked and see the 5v system again involved....see above

 

I think I figured out the 2067, but only driving will tell for sure. I started it up yesterday and it ran out of gas, The tank was empty. Driving it will tell for sure. Now I have to bring in gas in cans to get it up to normal reading. Duh!

 

i don't think you would get a code from running out of gas......check that 5 volt system
edit....
go back to the wiring diagrams and locate the 5 volt signal out of the ecm and check them, i believe there are multiple. otherwise check the sensors 5 volt signal to see if it is present where it is supposed to be, again use the schematics but start at the ecm

 

Put it all (90%) back together and took it out for a drive. Had to jump start it but it drove okay. It was sluggish running and it was sluggish shifting gears. It did not have a miss, just wasn't at full power. It didn't seem to have full power but I was careful not to push it excessively. Drove it about 4- 5 miles out and back. Now I want to check the codes again. Right now:

• It wont start with the key
• The CheckEngine light is on
• The traction control lite is on
• The fuel gauge is not working, I have approximately 1/2 tank of gas in it.

NEW EDIT

• Took it out again today to fill it with gas
• It still is very sluggish, not missing, but not at full power. It will shift thru the gears but it is winding out past the normal shift points. I got it up to about 45 mph but I didnt want to push it, just wanted to get gas and get back home with no issues.

 

You should check your battery voltage after the ride. The battery still sounds very weak.

 

I ran a stress test on the battery and generartor and both were fine.
I'm gonna take it to Autozone and clear the codes to see if it makes any difference. I still think the parts I installed need a re-learn period.

 

doubt it's a relearn issue.
your throttle system needs the 5 volt reference otherwise it will likely be in limp mode

 

Can I release that 5 volt reference by clearing the codes?

 

no the system needs the 5 volts
check at the ecm to see if it is there and check at the sensors that require the 5 volts to see if it there.....accelerator pedal, fuel level, MAP sensor and i'm sure many others.
the parts you replaced may not have been the issue, it's likely that the 5 volt issue was the cause for problems/codes with the components

 

Well I tried clearing the codes at Autozone, this has worked for me in the past. Today it did not clear the codes. AZ gave me a read out for the errors. It says:

• Powertrain System: Most likely throttle body assembly (already replaced) Failure is normally due to age and high milage. Check the throttle shaft for wear before rebuilding.
• This car is supposed to have a cable throttle shaft from the accelerator pedal to the throttle Bottle assembly. Be damned if I can find one. There is a cable at the gas pedal but It does not run very far. I oiled the spring and the cable that is visible.
• Anti-Lock Brake system: Replace fuses.
• 
  
• Diagnostic Trouble Codes:
• Power Train System
• P2108 Throttle Actuator Position Performance
• Secondary DTCs
• P0106 Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor performance (already replaced)
• P2122 Accelerator pedal Position (APP) Sensor 1 Circuit Low Voltage
• P2138 Accelerator pedal Position (APP) Sensors 1-2 Not plausable
• P0641 5V reference 1 Circuit
• P1101 Intake air Flow system performance
• P0068 Throttle Body Air Flow Performance
• Anti-Lock Brake System Performance
• Trouble Codes
• C0242 PCM indicated TCS Malfunction

 

P0641 5V reference 1 Circuit

deal with that and see which ones go away.
and if you can find a better scanner you may be better off even a off brand tech2 can be had for what i think is a reasonable price. especially if you want to take care of this stuff on your own.
crack open the wiring diagrams and look for circuit 1 5v reference to see where it is located and trace that and you will likely find some of those sensors are using that 5v signal.

you still have no fuel gauge and the fuel level sensor utilizes the 5v reference.

edit
also the inability to clear the codes may be due to communications issues still.

 

check your fuses there should be one for the 5v reference signal........we are getting no where without performing the tests that we are suggesting.
i'm not sure where you are going with this but staring at a scanner is not helping you out and getting you no closer to a solution.
can we get it done before 500?

 

1997_eldorado
"crack open the wiring diagrams and look for circuit 1 5v reference to see where it is located and trace that and you will likely find some of those sensors are using that 5v signal."

• Can you point me to the correct wiring diagrams. Im not good with the wiring diagrams, but I think we are very close to solving this
• The wire that plugs into the Throttle Body is seriously degraded from exposure to heat . Dont know if its got anything to do with the 5v line but it needs help.

 

Can you point me to the correct wiring diagrams

i pull these up for you and i'm sure you can look thru them and find the ecm pinouts and such.
we are not close as you keep running around doing whatever and then asking for more help when you didn't follow thru on the recommendations.
I/we have tried many times to walk you thru things and you don't follow thru and go off on your own tangent.
and i understand that it can be frustrating trying to get this thing going but think about it from our/my point of view we have spent our time trying to offer assistance and you pay no mind to it.
i hope all works out for you and you find the solutions to the problems but i'm at the point that i think it goes beyond the no start condition
we are not closer to solving this
you have almost 500 pages you can reference and maybe when results from requested tests are posted someone may chime in

 

NEW EDIT
I'm trying to combine some of our previous thinking and turn it into an action item.
I think we were all thinking the ECM was not sending information to the relay to start the engine. I think that may be incorrect. When I use the ignition switch to try to start the car I can hear the solenoid clicking. So that would seem to say the Relay is getting a signal and the Relay is sending power to the solenoid, but for what ever reason it is not enough power to start the engine.
NEW EDIT

• I called the manufacturer of the starter and ask for his opinion of my situation. We discussed all the work I had done on the car and how I went around the car and repaired the grounding points. We came to an agreement that the
• Relay, the Starter the ECM, the Soleoid are all working properly.
• Given the repairs I had done previously, it is most likely I have a bad or corroded connection between the Relay and the starter solenoid. By deduction, the Relay is not providing a good signal, but bypassing the relay it improves the signal to the starter and starts the car.
• The likely point is a bad ground somewhere or a stressed wire.
• Two possible fixes are
• Find the bad connection and repair it or
• Run a bypass from the relay to a push button device to start the car manually.

New Deduction.
Since I was able to drive the car and witness that is in an under powered situation. It is likely caused by a 5 volt short somewhere. The 5 v Short is in the communication lines. But looking at the wiring diagram below, I cannot come up with an action item.
Personally, I'm thinking its the communication between the throttle pedal and the Throttle body, but I do not see that information in this wiring diagram below.

 

Run a bypass from the relay to a push button device to start the car manually

problem solved and we didn't get to the 500

 

Does it start without a boost now?

A start button is starting to sound like the simplest way to use the car now.

 

I have the parts to rig a start button, but the car is not running at full power. There is till something holding it back from running normally. There is no miss, it just doesn't have full power. On level ground it runs almost okay, but if you start up a hill it does have any power.